Underground stream or not?

[OneMan]

My son just bought 10 acres of property in TN and whhie we were viewing the parcel, we took along his 7 month old Golden. One part of the acreage is not cleared completely so we were trying to find the property markers when we heard the dog yelp.
He yelled to me what happened and I said I thought he had the dog. We couldn't see her but we could hear her whinning.
Finally we located her in a hole that she had fallen into. It looked like an underground streambed because the hole ran horizontally at both ends of where she was lying. My son jumped into the hole (he is 6' 2" and it was atleast 2' over his head). He grabbed the dog and had to sling her up to me while I lay on the ground reaching over the hole.
Next we had to get my son out using the dog's leash as a rope. The dog was fine and didn't suffer any damage except for some cuts.
After all this was over we went back and started to look at the area. It seems that this "stream, hole or whatever" runs from the top of the property to the bottom. In some places it is entirely covered over by limbs and leaves and dirt, and in others it is barely visable. Some depths are over 8' deep while others are barely 3'.
There is no mention of this thing on the survey papers or any papers. It looks like you could go the entire lenght of the property under ground and not be seen. I am thankful that the dog didn't go exploring into the horizontal ditch as we would never have found her had she gotten under the ground.
My question is: Could this be an underground streambed or just a runoff ditch that was covered over thru the years of neglect? I'm old enough that my first flashback was a VC tunnel but then I had to realize I was in TN.
Has anyone ever come across an underground stream before? There was no water when we were there but the area has had a drought for some months. Neither the realtor nor the owner "knew" what we were talking about nor was the County Extension Agent of any help.
__________________
Old Dog with a new toy and sometimes neither works well.

 

[RadarTech]

OneMan,
A few thoughts:
1. Any fault lines near the area? Earthquake?
2. any mines or anything like that?
3. is the property on a valley floor? near any major rivers?
4. Could runoff from uphill have done it? Since it is over grown, maybe no one knew the run-off was getting it...


not sure myself, but this is truly interesting...

Later,
J

 

[caver]

Loads of caves in TN. I've seen karst features similar to what you describe in a karst heavy county in Missouri.
I used to explore caves just about every weekend until my body expanded and my back complained loudly.

 

[NSBound]

It seems that this "stream, hole or whatever" runs from the top of the property to the bottom. In some places it is entirely covered over by limbs and leaves and dirt, and in others it is barely visable. Some depths are over 8' deep while others are barely 3'.

From what you've said, the property is on a hillside? If so, this does sound like a serious runoff trench. 8" deep in places is really deep . Have you been there yet when it's raining hard? Is there evidence of the runoff starting from uphill somehwere? That'd be my inclination, to start thinking that way. If it's an underground stream, maybe your nearest neighbours would also know about it from the prior landowner? Good luck, let us know the rest of the story!

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Here in Pa, we have these all over the place. I always heard the old timers talk of these. They actually talk of underground rivers. There are some places where you can see small mountain streams disappear into the earth. They also talk of some mountains being hollow which I believe. When I was a kid, there was a farm over a mile and a half away on the other side of the mountain. Sometimes we could hear a car pull into their driveway and hear exactly what they were saying like they were 50 feet away. Other times we could hear animals running and would look but there was nothing there. And no, we weren't distilling moonshine either.

 

[OneMan]

OneMan,
A few thoughts:
1. Any fault lines near the area? Earthquake?
2. any mines or anything like that?
3. is the property on a valley floor? near any major rivers?
4. Could runoff from uphill have done it? Since it is over grown, maybe no one knew the run-off was getting it...


not sure myself, but this is truly interesting...

Later,
J

I really don't know if there are any faults in the area that would be that pronounced to cause a ditch approximately 3-4' wides in some places and up to 8' deep in some spots.
Mines, I don't think so.
The property sits on the top of a slight mountain but not at the very top. Other property above my sons.
Runoff would be my bet but the whole thing is covered by either dirt or branches or debris so that you could be walking and suddenly fall thru and be covered over before any knew you were gone. That's what happened to the dog. We only heard her yelp and didn't see her fall and had to look real hard to find the "hole" or opening.

I grew up in NE PA so I know about mines and cave in but this doesn't look like on abandoned mines. Too close to the surface and too long. It really looks like someone had a 18" or 24" culvert buried the whole distance of the property on the one boundrya nd then the pipe somehow rusted out the entire length and the same time and the whole remained. That's why I was glad that the sog didn't go exploring into the "hole" when she fell.
We have only had the property for 4 months and have been there 3 times to try and clear some brush. All times have been great weather and we camped with the grandkids. That's why I was worried about them falling into the thing.
A riverbed covered over sounds like a stetch because it would have to be almost 10 acres in lenght. This worries me because we tried to clear out some spots with a JD 3032E not knowing the area was like this. I don't want an accident to spoil the son's family plans.
I would have thought that the county land agent would have known anything but they are no help. There are no neighbors since this is part of a 3600 acre tract and my son was the first to buy at this location in the development.
Sorry I don't have any photos to show since the last time we visited there I was too busy filming the grandkids (5,3,1) doing marshmellows and riding the JD. (not running of course)
The other point is that the line doesn't go in a straight line but meanders down the entire property line almost following the property line exactlly.
Oh the other thing is I don't have high speed here in NC so I am really slow in getting answers and sorry about the wait.

 

[dave1949]

Well, we all get to try our hands at this puzzle!

If the lot was split off from a large tract, and the 'ditch' follows the property line - or vice versa, then the surveyors must have used it for a natural boundary while subdividing. They may be able to tell you something about it.

Who/what was the large tract used for previously?

Could there be a seasonal spring above your property that feeds water down this ditch during late winter to early summer, plus surface runoff during heavy rains?

Once running water starts cutting a channel, it will keep cutting on the same path. If it caved in over time, in spots, the trees and brush would end up laying in it or across it.

Very interesting.
Dave.

 

[MotorSeven]

Drought in TN? This year? or were you there last year. I am in E. TN & we have been pummeled with rain. Anyway, lots of limestone karst here, tons of sink holes and caves. Yours does sound more like a runoff gulley, but even these can go underground as it dissolves the limestone over time. I would get a 6-8' metal bar or pipe and probe the length of it and map it out. Mark it with survey tape to let he kids know where not to step. If it goes under ground, shine a light in there to see how big it gets. You may have a ready made root cellar if the water has abandoned it for a shorter route to the ground water table.

RD

 

[The Dougster]

There is one basic rule you must keep in mind... "Water seeks it's own level"... Rivers, creeks and streams recharge the groundwater aquifers and the groundwater aquifers recharge rivers, creeks and streams.
To answer your initial question, yes, in karst formations, there are fractures that could be called streams... water moves downhill and carves it's own path given the opportunity.
Without photos, it's difficult to know exactly your situation, but I suspect that what you have is a wet weather creek/ditch that probably drains underground somewhere... It would be interesting to observe during periods of heavy rainfall.
I'd venture to say that most States have mapped the geology and if you can find the agency responsible, you'll also find a map... Try the local USGS office for further information.

 

[RobertN]

Cave?

I know out here, the high school I went to has an underground river running under it. The two gyms had to be put on pilings. I was friends with my drafting teacher and his family. He brought out the original blueprints for the school. A couple of sheets showed the property details; the river is prominently shown.

The school was planned around 1960, and first classes started in '66. I have no idea what technology was used back then to find/locate/map this river.

In this case, it is not above ground at all.

 

[Lacal]

Oneman - what was the tip off - no trip wires? Or the lack of that wonderful aroma of nuoc mam and sweat?

Have you checked google? You may be able to use the historical imagery which is on the tool bar and looks like a clock. I was able to look at my property before there was a house and three different periods after.

Can you follow it to its end, and what direction does it head?

The only other thing I could suggest is find the local historian almost every area has one. He/she may offer some help.

 

[OneMan]

Oneman - what was the tip off - no trip wires? Or the lack of that wonderful aroma of nuoc mam and sweat?

Have you checked google? You may be able to use the historical imagery which is on the tool bar and looks like a clock. I was able to look at my property before there was a house and three different periods after.

Can you follow it to its end, and what direction does it head?

The only other thing I could suggest is find the local historian almost every area has one. He/she may offer some help.

The tip off was
1. A cry for help
2. A hole with a small tunnel leading both ways
3. My pants suddenly filling up...

I didn't know about google historical imagery, thanks..
It goes from the top of the property owned, to the very bottm. 10 acres in all.
I was clearing a spot with a sling blade and my foot went thru the soil and I was luck to be standing next to a good sized sapling and caught it. Of course I grabbed for the blade and cut two fingers so this is personal with me now.

 

[silverdollar6]

Giant Moles?

 

[OneMan]

Ok, I will try a;nd post some photos of the area in question. I hope they come out. Some show the hole where the dog fell and another shows the length of the area by the red flags and paint on trees. The total area is ;much longer but the camera only takes what it can.

 

[OneMan]

Here are some others taken on the same day. It was late and getting dark but we tried. We are talking about some football fields long here and various depths. I hope you can see the stream hole in some of the photos because that was what I feared the dog would go into when he fell. I



ts also big enough for my grandsons to crawl into.
The 'pipe hole' connects the entire hole areas even when the area is covered by semi solid ground or brush.
It is hard to describe this but it is like a giant trench covered by soil and a 18 inch pipe hole connecting the whole thing.

 

[dodge man]

I've seen that alot around here, but not usually that long. I'll throw out a couple of ideas from what I've seen in this area.

1. An old gully that was filled and and eroded partly away, some of which is underground.

2. There is a field tile or other kind of drain pipe and the pipe is going bad and "stealing dirt", thereby making the holes you see.

3. Could just be a natural gully that in place erodes down several feet from the flow of water and disappears under ground.

Take a look at it when it rains hard and you can probably figure it out.

 

[OneMan]

We are talking a long area here. Maybe 2 -3 hundred yards long as far a we have been able to track it. This is a hole that is sometimes covered by foliage as seen in some of the photos and sometimes by soil. In eithr case there is the possibility of falling thru if you weigh enough.
Our Golden retriever puppy (54 LBS) fell into on of the pictured holes and was down about 7 feet. We are not talking about a wide trench, maybe 3-4 feet wide at the widest but varies from maybe 3' to nearly 8' deep in some spots.
If you look at the photo of the property you can see the distance we are talking about. The area in question is out of view on the right side of the property photo but lies in the same grade.
I would just like to know if anyone has anything like this on their property before I put a tractor or dozer in to backfill.

 

[The Dougster]

Of course I have no way of knowing but I suspect it's simply a crevice that has been enlarged over time by water. The photos aren't very clear. I suspect that during periods of heavy rainfall, water flows heavily into it and then into some underground aquifer. Tell me, is this a heavy limestone area or something similiar? It sounds much like a fault and I suspect it will be something you're going to have to live with.

 

[Egon]

If you are in Limestone or Dolomite country it may be a cavern hollowed out by flowing water.

Karst Topography as mentioned before:

Karst Topography

 

[art]

On the hills around here we have them much the same as you describe and nature made. Depending on where you are here they might even lead you to a waterfall on the way to the bottom some dropping off forty foot or more. Some will be dry between the rains and some carry water all the time just varied amounts depending on the rain.