Going Mac...maybe.

[DocHeb]

They are only built by Apple, and they just plain don't make low-end computers. All the components are specified by Apple and are high end.

That is the reason Apple Computers are so "stable". You can only put their things in their computer. This is like buying a tractor of one color, realizing that you can't put aftermarket lights on it, change the style of seat, or put on a hydraulic top link. It may be the best tractor out there, I'll give you that, but does not allow for tweaking - and there are a lot of tractor tweakers out there that would be disappointed.

On the other hand, the PC platform is standardized (if you can call the broad spectrum of products/protocols standardized) and there are innumerable players in the field, not just one. This means PC software must be written loose enough and must serve all the players equipment to work. I love building PCs. I'm slowly accumulating the parts needed to build my fifth computer, a home theater PC. Get the best parts, researching compatability, reading overclocking forums, just having fun tweaking. If done properly, there are no freezes or BSOD - just the satisfaction of having something you put together work. It is not suprising there is no passion about "Dell Boxes", but you get what you pay for (buy a Yugo, you'll drive a Yugo.)

Different strokes for different folks - all depends on your goal. While the Macs are better computers, they are the best for a reason. That reason is why I don't use one (on the other hnd, some of my best friends use Macs ). Just remember - because you use the best computer doesn't make you the best - and that is the attitude that bugs "PC People" about "Mac People".

 

[MarkV]

Just remember - because you use the best computer doesn't make you the best - and that is the attitude that bugs "PC People" about "Mac People".

No worries here Doc. I am the one that started all of this and am happy with the Mac. I was a attracted to the ease of use because I knew I was the worst not the best. Nether the wife or I are very computer literate and we have found the Mac easier to use and more stable for us.

Funny how this tread went. I only thought things got heated when we talked oil, transmissions and guns.

Happy Holidays,
MarkV

 

[MossRoad]

One thing to clarify... for me at least...

I don't think Mac computer hardware is any better or any worse than a good PC. We have several hundred PCs and 40-50 macs. Both have hardware failures on an equal basis in our work environment.

The operating systems is where the things differ. The mac OS is very stable and elegant. Windows is a pig.

 

[jgrreed]

Well, well, it's funny now this thread seems hotter than an Orange vs. Green chat!! An interesting read though.....

I've been a 'mac person' for about 4.5 years now, despite only owning one for about 1.5 years. How does that work you ask?? Well, it's because I realized that I had made a terrible mistake about 2 weeks after purchasing my last (last ever) HP laptop in december of 2004.

I've read a few interesting comments on here. Regarding the comment on what PC people don't like about mac people, I definitely don't think I'm any better, but my machine sure is, and if I'm asked my opinion I like to share that with others so that there life can become infinitely easier too, as mine did 1.5 years ago. It's the same as asking advice here on TBN.

As for 'needing' to run windows programs, that's no longer an excuse. Emulator programs such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion now allow windows to run 'within' mac OS X. That is Windows is a window on your desktop the same as Word, Firefox, or powerpoint would be. Now, if your business is let's say warehousing, and the only purpose for the computers in your business is to run your warehousing software that is PC based, then buy PC's and block all internet access for your employees, cause if you don't you'll be full of viruses and spyware within a month. But if you're starting a new warehousing business, find yourself some mac OS based software and outfit your whole place with them.

As for the 'mac zealotry' comment, why don't you do a little test. Go out and purchase two machines today. Get a basic macbook, and a comparable 'high quality' (ie not from the discount store, maybe a HP or a Toshiba) laptop. Do exactly the same things with them everyday. Find a wireless network, check your email, type a letter, download and organize some music, watch a movie, organize your pictures, and print and scan from a wireless 4 in 1 printer or one attached to a print server. You can even run CAD etc via an emulator. Now, keep track of all the times each of them lock up, cause you to enter the system settings, place call for help to your friend from high school who's now a network guy, cause you to swear, require that you reload windows and start from scratch, and just plain WASTE YOUR TIME!!!! Also, take note of when you have to replace each of them.

If your tabulations document that the windows machine either 1. used less of your time to keep it running, or 2. outlasted the Macbook before you had to replace the machine or reload windows - MARK MY WORDS - I WILL REIMBURSE YOU FOR THE PRICE OF THE MACBOOK. That's how sure I am that your life will be much better once you get a Mac. I lived this experiment from dec 2004 'til august 2007!!! My friends that were smarter than me and bought Mac's when I bought my HP laughed, and laughed, and laughed, and all I could do was agree, because they were right.

I am putting a clause on this for 'lemon machines' (yes, mac puts out defective hardware too, my HD packed it in on me this summer). Also, if YOU are an absolute PC expert that can remove viruses, remove spyware, and work in the system settings in your sleep, you're not allowed in the contest.

They're not perfect, but they're certainly a lot better. They do cost more, but they last longer too.

I could talk about this all day!! Get yourself and iPhone while your at it......

-Jer.

 

[jgrreed]

Anyone who would use a machine that freezes up all of the time when they have one that never does, would be pretty stupid to keep using the machine that freezes up, or am I missing something?

No, you're not. It makes perfect sense to me.

It is that arrogance that I most enjoy about the mac zealot. It is always easy to get a "rise" out of them. I don't see that with Windows users. They see a computer for what it really is, a tool, and really just a commodity at that. Most mac users don't get it, and probably never will but they are happy thinking there is something special about their 0 /1 tabulator.

I guess I am trying to see if I can get a rise out of a Mac zealot. Let's see what happens.

It is a tool, and a commodity, you're right. My tool works roughly 99% of the time, and rarely wastes my time.

There's your rise........

What side are you on here??? Are you one of those Microsoft hired double agents I've been hearing about??

-Jer.

 

[DocHeb]

... that your life will be much better once you get a Mac... -Jer.

Okay, Okay, Okay - I give. Macs are the better computers, Mac users are better users, and Mac user lives are better lives.

 

[jgrreed]

Okay, Okay, Okay - I give. Macs are the better computers, Mac users are better users, and Mac user lives are better lives.

Regarding the comment on what PC people don't like about mac people, I definitely don't think I'm any better,

Computer yes. Computer aspect of my life yes. User..... see above....

You must think I'm this guy......

-Jer.

 

[MossRoad]

Well, well, it's funny now this thread seems hotter than an Orange vs. Green chat!! An interesting read though.....

I've been a 'mac person' for about 4.5 years now, despite only owning one for about 1.5 years. How does that work you ask?? Well, it's because I realized that I had made a terrible mistake about 2 weeks after purchasing my last (last ever) HP laptop in december of 2004.

I've read a few interesting comments on here. Regarding the comment on what PC people don't like about mac people, I definitely don't think I'm any better, but my machine sure is, and if I'm asked my opinion I like to share that with others so that there life can become infinitely easier too, as mine did 1.5 years ago. It's the same as asking advice here on TBN.

As for 'needing' to run windows programs, that's no longer an excuse. Emulator programs such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion now allow windows to run 'within' mac OS X. That is Windows is a window on your desktop the same as Word, Firefox, or powerpoint would be. Now, if your business is let's say warehousing, and the only purpose for the computers in your business is to run your warehousing software that is PC based, then buy PC's and block all internet access for your employees, cause if you don't you'll be full of viruses and spyware within a month. But if you're starting a new warehousing business, find yourself some mac OS based software and outfit your whole place with them.

As for the 'mac zealotry' comment, why don't you do a little test. Go out and purchase two machines today. Get a basic macbook, and a comparable 'high quality' (ie not from the discount store, maybe a HP or a Toshiba) laptop. Do exactly the same things with them everyday. Find a wireless network, check your email, type a letter, download and organize some music, watch a movie, organize your pictures, and print and scan from a wireless 4 in 1 printer or one attached to a print server. You can even run CAD etc via an emulator. Now, keep track of all the times each of them lock up, cause you to enter the system settings, place call for help to your friend from high school who's now a network guy, cause you to swear, require that you reload windows and start from scratch, and just plain WASTE YOUR TIME!!!! Also, take note of when you have to replace each of them.

If your tabulations document that the windows machine either 1. used less of your time to keep it running, or 2. outlasted the Macbook before you had to replace the machine or reload windows - MARK MY WORDS - I WILL REIMBURSE YOU FOR THE PRICE OF THE MACBOOK. That's how sure I am that your life will be much better once you get a Mac. I lived this experiment from dec 2004 'til august 2007!!! My friends that were smarter than me and bought Mac's when I bought my HP laughed, and laughed, and laughed, and all I could do was agree, because they were right.

I am putting a clause on this for 'lemon machines' (yes, mac puts out defective hardware too, my HD packed it in on me this summer). Also, if YOU are an absolute PC expert that can remove viruses, remove spyware, and work in the system settings in your sleep, you're not allowed in the contest.

They're not perfect, but they're certainly a lot better. They do cost more, but they last longer too.

I could talk about this all day!! Get yourself and iPhone while your at it......

-Jer.

Well, as an IT guy for 20+ years I can tell you that we have a big old pile O' dead macs that is equally proportionate to the big old pile O' dead PCs that we have. Mac hardware does not last any longer than PC hardware. For that matter, I think it is more sensitive to abuse than PC hardware. PCs run ALL of the machinery in our business. No Macs controlling anything. Most PCs have expansion slots and most Macs do not. Many tasks in industry require input from devices and Macs do not do that well at all. That is the hardware truth.

As for the software truth... nobody bothers to hack Macs because it is not yet lucrative and it is tougher than attacking windows. There are just not enough Macs out there to bother with and Windows is an easy target because it is so poorly written, patched, etc... However, many older legacy and proprietary programs used in businesses will not run on a MAC when they update the OS, while most windows based programs do. We are still running Windows 3.11 on some machines just fine. The costs associated with switching from PCs to Macs, once the software upgrades/replacements are figured in is one of the reasons PCs hang around.

If your tabulations document that the windows machine either 1. used less of your time to keep it running, or 2. outlasted the Macbook before you had to replace the machine or reload windows - MARK MY WORDS - I WILL REIMBURSE YOU FOR THE PRICE OF THE MACBOOK.

As far as this comment goes... you said EITHER point 1 or point 2. We have many, many 4, 5, 6, heck, I'm still running a 486/33 laptop every weekend using Windows 95. The thing is 10+ years old at least and has never been repaired/reloaded, etc... and we do have some dead 3 year old macbooks. So, you owe my employer some cash!

 

[jgrreed]

As far as this comment goes... you said EITHER point 1 or point 2. We have many, many 4, 5, 6, heck, I'm still running a 486/33 laptop every weekend using Windows 95. The thing is 10+ years old at least and has never been repaired/reloaded, etc... and we do have some dead 3 year old macbooks. So, you owe my employer some cash!

What is it used for?? Is it ever connected to the web?? I can maybe see a machine that never sees the web lasting that long.

I'm not doubting you, as you'd obviously be the guy in the know, but have you ever seen a PC that is used by a 'regular' user (ie. on the web regularly, not behind a corporate firewall, etc) last that long?? My experience, which is not as a pro IT guy, has been that a PC tends to act pretty sickly within 12 months or so of purchase and then needs reloading to revive it.

-J.

 

[SnowRidge]

I used to recommend Macs over PCs, but not anymore. My wife, who is an IT professional, bought a Mac and has had nothing but trouble with it. It has had a string of hardware failures, and Apple's warranty repairs have not been satisfactory.

Having opened it up myself to replace a failed hard drive, I can attest that there is nothing special about the internal components. Apple's expertise is in packaging and user interface, not build quality.

BTW, I think even less of Micro$oft than I do Apple. Personally, I use Debian Linux for everything except certain software that just will not run on anything but Winders.

 

[dmccarty]

I have used dozens and dozens of Windows systems over the years. Right now I have four at my desk plus three that we have at home. I have only had to reinstall windows once on a work system in the last few years. That system got hosed when I moved which put me on a different network. Should not have been a problem but the system appears to have been in the middle of a update when I moved. This is the only work system I have had to rebuild that I can remember.

Of our home systems, my first windows system caught on fire. Yes you heard that right. But a fire in the power supply is not Bill's fault. It did not require a reinstall. The other two desktops we have are just fine.

My wife is having fits with her laptop. She has had to reload previous configurations a few times for some reason. This is the only windows system that has been a constant pain. And I'm not sure its hardware related.

Our last system we got this year for about $700 is a Quad core with 4GB running 64bit Vista. Its been working very well. I'm using it as a DVR. It can record TV shows while I do other work or play games. No delays at all.

I don't like Windows but the software I need runs on it so I'm stuck. Mac is just too expensive for what you get. My first micro computer was an Apple II+ which I paid $800 for a 16K or RAM and used a cassette drive for storage.

Later,
Dan

 

[Dargo]

Second, and perhaps more importantly, Microsoft steals from people!! I had a laptop that I bought about a year and a half ago. It came with Microsoft One Care on it so I went ahead and subscribed to it. My son took that computer to college and it got destroyed. After it was about a year old Microsoft emailed me to tell me that they were going to charge me another $55 for continuing the One Care antivirus etc. software subscription. I emailed them and wrote them telling them that I do NOT want it continued because that computer no longer exists. Surprise, surprise, when I got my next CC bill Microsoft had charged me anyway!

OMG!!! They did it again!! Microsoft apparently had a American Express CC number of mine from where I bought some software on a business trip. After the above mentioned experience about 6 months ago you'd think that One Care crap would be over with me. Oh no, I just saw where Microsoft billed me $55 on my American Express CC for their One Care service for the same computer that has been destroyed almost 2 years ago!! When questioned, they said that they did it "for my convenience". Oh BS!!! Freakin' thieves!

BOA told me that they have had hundreds and hundreds of calls about Microsoft doing this lately. I actually had to cancel that AE card and get a new one issued because of Microsoft! I was unaware that there is no such thing as credit card fraud in this country. It seems that if they have your number they are free to bill away until you catch them. Then, at worse, they have to give the money back. There is no real downside to stealing like this. The bank rep even told me that they firmly believe many companies bill people fraudulently on purpose because they know a certain percentage of people will never catch them. Microsoft is one of those companies who will positively steal from you.

I still have almost a dozen Windows based computers between my small business and home. My new Mac networks fine with all of them. I think as I replace existing machines over time it will be with Apple computers.

I have to make a change to that quote. Almost immediately after posting that my MacBook Pro no longer recognized any other computers on my home network. It would still find the network and access the internet, but will not share with any other computers nor is seen by them. I've spent untold hours trying to get that thing to see my other computers to no avail. I've tried talking to dozens of other people and the best I get is that "Mac computers are sometimes difficult to network".

Now one of my daughter's computers died last night. I hate to say it, but I'm going back with a PC since my MacBook Pro is a $2800 stand alone laptop that won't do anything other than access the internet. I can't use any of my printers on my network or anything. I'm pretty frustrated with Mac and regret ever purchasing one after having it for about a year now.

 

[DocHeb]

My wife is having fits with her laptop. She has had to reload previous configurations a few times for some reason. This is the only windows system that has been a constant pain. And I'm not sure its hardware related.

I suspect that there are more problems with systems that are purchased with Brand Specific proprietary versions of Windows and pre-installed software. When I look at computers at the store, they promote how much software is pre-installed as a benefit. I look at this as bloated trash with potential interactions that I don't want.

I have built four Windows machines by myself. I am careful about what hardware and software I use. I use Windows Update which runs automatically, and I am behind a Linksys router using Norton Internet Security and Spybot Search and Destroy. Two of my computers run constantly and don't require frequent reboots. I have never done a Windows re-install on a computer, going back to Windows 3.1 (more than a few years ago.) My daughter accidently downloaded something nasty that slipped by NIS/SSD and really froze up one of the machines a year ago. I just used the prior week's backup and overwrote everything - in 20 minutes all hunky-dory.

Despite my satisfaction with my home-built Windows boxes, I still recognize that Macs are better computers, Mac users are better users, and Mac user lives are better lives, however.

 

[N80]

That is the reason Apple Computers are so "stable". You can only put their things in their computer.

Of course this is not true. Macs run on tons of different 2nd party software and always have. And current Macs can even run Windows. So that does not account for stability in Macs. There's lots of sorry software out there that can make a mess out of a Mac.

 

[N80]

One thing to clarify... for me at least...

I don't think Mac computer hardware is any better or any worse than a good PC.

That is correct and that's were a lot of things get confused. A Mac and a well built brand name PC are probably equal in hardware quality. But just saying 'PC' can refer to a wide range of machines from excellent, expensive machines to absolute cobbled together junk. The thing is, there are very few Mac models; a couple of laptops, a few iMacs and a tower unit. They were all designed for OS X and the quality level is about the same throughout the range. This cannot be said of 'PC's in general.

 

[N80]

Mac hardware does not last any longer than PC hardware.

That's not entirely accurate. Macs tend to have higher end, better made components than the average PC. Some PCs have as good a components or maybe even better, but the term PC encomposses a wide range of quality and that range is heavy on the bottom with lots of absolute garbage out there.

Many tasks in industry require input from devices and Macs do not do that well at all. That is the hardware truth.

Right. That's why Macs are and have been preffered amongst graphics designers, TV and movie work, bio-sciences and astro-physics labs.

As for the software truth... nobody bothers to hack Macs because it is not yet lucrative and it is tougher than attacking windows. There are just not enough Macs out there to bother with and Windows is an easy target because it is so poorly written, patched, etc...

That is part of the truth. Still, security experts most say that OS X is generally more secure. And, as the Mac market share has crept up, the security issues have not, particualrly regarding viruses. Time will tell.

Edit: P.S.: I have never purchased or owned a Windows computer. But, I've used them everyday at work for 18 years. I've been using Apple/Mac since 1985 starting with the Apple IIe. I've got 4 active Macs at home, soon to be five. So I've had a lot of experience with both. I've had some not so great Macs. I've used lots of junk PC's at work. Current box is terrible.

 

[Chuck52]

Right. That's why Macs are and have been preffered amongst graphics designers, TV and movie work, bio-sciences and astro-physics labs.

I believe the point being made was that almost all computer interfaced instruments are interfaced to PC's these days. In the past, lots of scientific instrumentation was controlled by proprietary computer equipment. Some of that stuff is still around and is often a pain to deal with. Newer equipment is interfaced to PC's running Windows. If the computer fails, you just switch any proprietary boards to a new computer and away you go. Macs were never designed for that kind of work, and though there might be some instrumentation which is interfaced to Macs, I'm not familiar with any. Processing data can be done on any kind of computer running the appropriate software, but because of the above connection, most scientific work is still done on PCs....collect the data on an instrument run by a PC, process on the same or equivalent PC on your desk.....just kinda comes naturally. Even the protein crystallographers mainly use PCs for their work. Good graphics are good graphics, and come with PCs and Macs.

Another reason PCs dominate the scientific computing community is history. When I switched from mainframe computing to desktop computing, I needed to keep using the old FORTRAN based programs which were the only software available for the tasks I performed. I could do that with a PC, but very few people were porting those programs to Macs. The theoretical chemists I know still mainly use PCs. Often they use large arrays of PCs, like 50 or more all linked together into the modern equivalent of a super computer. Is that done with Macs?

Got nothing against Macs. Some of my best friends are Mac users. Their computer-controlled instruments use PCs.

Chuck

 

[N80]

I believe the point being made was that almost all computer interfaced instruments are interfaced to PC's these days.

I guess I don't understand then. Scanners, cameras, etc are computer interfaced instruments aren't they? How about telescopes, sensors, lab equipment etc etc?

The statement that was made was that Macs do not do well at all with input from devices. Kind of a blanket statement. Especially odd when the truth is that Macs have always done well with 2nd party devices, and this was especially true with high end scanners ($30,000 and up) which did not interface with Windows at all.

Again, Macs are very popular amongst astro-physics labs and biosciences in major university settings as well as entire departments at NASA.

So the statement continues to confuse me. Maybe he was just referring to proprietary systems in large companies. But that has almost nothing to do with the majority and maybe entirety of typical home and small business users. The newspaper where my wife worked had a proprietary layout system (utter and total garbage) that interfaced only with Windows. Of course, the entire graphics department of this nationally owned paper was 100% Mac.

 

[SnowRidge]

A number of companies make proprietary data capture boards for industrial/scientific use. They are designed to plug into an available PC slot. They first appeared on the scene shortly after IBM introduced the PC.

Here's a link to one.

The PC's open slot design and essentially non-proprietary architecture made the this kind of data acquisition product possible at a much lower cost than dedicated stand alone data loggers. As far as I know, nothing like this is available for the Mac.

 

[Chuck52]

I suppose we could work up some statistics on which platform is most used to control what, but I was referring specifically to things like various kinds of spectrophotometers (infrared, UV-Vis, nmr, Mass Spec) and X-ray diffraction instrumentation, not scanners and the like. Certainly telescopes, cameras and other lab equipment which need only a usb port to communicate with a computer can indeed work nicely with Macs, PCs, or any other platform for which the required software is available. However, I stand by my statement that most scientific instrumentation in use today which is interfaced to a computer is interfaced to PCs. As SnowRidge notes, proprietary data capture boards, like the one in the PC which controls my CCD-based diffractometer, are more often designed for use in PCs. They could be made for Macs, and I have no doubt that some are, but that kind of interfacing is much more common with PCs. Some of that may have to do with the international market....anyone know how well Apple has penetrated the European market? Most of the Europeans I deal with about computer issues run flavors of Linux on PC systems. Apparently, most of the software I use would run several times faster under Linux than under Windows, but naturally my favorite program has not been ported to Linux.....the guy who wrote it as a postdoc is now a Professor and has better things to do than figure out the necessary graphics routines.

Interestingly enough, I just got back from coffee with the guy in charge of our teaching labs. I was discussing this thread with him and he told me the 100+ computers we just installed in the teaching lab are iMacs. Great. I helped install about 20 of them and didn't notice what they were. They replaced some Dells, I think, that were getting old. Those computers do indeed communicate with various sensors used in the teaching labs, through usb connections. Of course, they are running Windows XP, because that is the platform for which the software was available, so in effect they ar PCs made by Apple. They were apparently cheaper than new Dells were going to be. I bet we could have bought all new software and run the Apple operating system, but gotta save money. Turns out they're having almost 10% hardware failure on those boxes, mainly power supply issues.

Chuck