YM336D - Started knocking loud while tilling

[5030]

I was asked for a few tips so I provided my method that works for me so use some or not its you guys prerogative you got what you paid for. :thumbsup:

Also I have a drill doctor and really dont like how it works on small bits so on the size studs I run into me sharpening my bits rather than buy new makes no sense new works good my sharpening ability on small ones is lacking.

btw 5030 can you provide a link I dont know what that is? "Get yourself a couple Die Reclaim drills from solid micrograin tungsten carbide."

MSC Industrial Supply will have them. Production Tool, any machine shop tooling supply house will. MA Ford don't sell direct, I don't believe. Cleveland Twist also offers them I believe. I have MA Ford myself. Be apprised, they aren't cheap. A single small diameter drill (1/8") can cost upwards of 40 bucks, however, with proper care, it will last a lifetime and will drill out or provide a hole to use an easy out in anything hard like broken taps broke off below the surface.

Because they are Tungsten Carbide, they are brittle so drilling out something hard requires a guide or drill press. They won't take a wobbling hand drill motor...and plenty of water for lubrication.

I use them all the time for 'mistakes'. Saved my bacone on almost finished jobs where a broken tap means scrap can. They work fantastic on the work hard studs on the Caretpillar 3406 engines.

Just Goggle up 'Die Reclaim Drills'.

You can sharpen the little ones (HSS drills) with the addition of some headgear magnifiers......What I do.

Darex (the makers of the 'Drill Doctor), produces some very good drill sharpeners and tool sharpeners (end mill), but the average Joe can't afford them. They are high precision tools with a very high precision price in the 5-10 thousand range....

 

[Car Doc]

Alright thanks!

I did not know about that brand etc will certainly keep it in mind I learn something new every day on here. Yeah precision quality stuff is high I try to only use good stuff but there are limits. :thumbsup:

edit: Actually now I think about the rescue bits may be made out of tungsten they are capable of drilling taps and bits and is why I mentioned them. (wasn't aware of those you said) Seem to think my 1/8 and 1/4 bits came to about $80-100 for the pair if I remember right and they are monsters like I said they flat chew stuff up.

 

[5030]

They may be, in fact Tungsten Carbide. The easiest way to tell is, if they are straight flute, in other words, the cutting edge in relationship to the lands are vertical with no twist (sort of like a wood spade drill), then they are carbide. If a conventional spiral flute, then they aren't.

Die reclaim drills will always specify water or a water dilluted EP lubricant for cooling (at the cutting edge) and chip removal, always.

Micrograin Tungsten Carbide is pressed under extreme pressure and heat to form a shape, then the cutting edge is sharpened whereas, HSS and it's derivitaves like M42 Cobalt are actually blanks that are heat formed and machined. All the fancy names are nothing more than specific alloys and the Tin and TiAn and Steam Coatings are nothing more (than very thin coatings)..... Just plasma sprayed on surface material to aid in chip flow and cutting edge lubrication.

The addition of a good quality boundary lubricating cutting compound does the same thing with ordinary HSS bright finish (uncoated) drills. The gold coating looks appealing to the consumer but in actuality, provides little benefit. However, retailers know that gold attracts buyers, so why not.

 

[Car Doc]

Yup they are carbide by your definition. They also have a spiral going down the side its real shallow though. They say you can mill with that surface and I dont doubt it a bit :laughing: they chew things sideways as well as drill.

What I mean by that is say you drilling a 1/8 hole inside a larger hole like a bolt is below flush if the bit gets off center it will make a 3/8 hole out of what you are drilling in a heartbeat running around the inside the hole. you use these with die grinders btw.

edit: Found this if anyone is interested...[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvOfUvzgmEA[/ame]

 

[KubotainNH]

There's some good info here on drilling. I resharpen mine sometimes but didn't know the name for it, had to google "offhand sharpen twist drills" only to realize that's what I do. So, any tips on getting a hole drilled right in the center of a stud? I often drift off some and once that first small hole is drilled it's not so easy to get it straightened. Those Safety Drill things look pretty cool, maybe I'll have to ask for one for fathers day.

 

[Domush]

Not to get us back on topic, but I took the head off today

On to the photos and video:

First look at the head gasket (which happened to stick to the head)

Head gasket remnants on the block

Cyl #1

Cyl #2

Cyl #3

#1

#2

#3

#1 (the only old cylinder liner)

#2

#3

#2 cyl is definitely where the head gasket blew. I'm guessing there is too much of a warp in the head for a solid seal. The center of the head measured as a .004" dip with my crappy straight edge, but who knows. I'll get it machined proper this time.

Also I removed the injectors and tested them on the tractor and they have great spray (all three). #3 may be a little weaker than the other two, but overall much better than I was expecting after 30 years.

Here is the injector test video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcKeSmdq6pc]Yanmar YM336D Injector test - YouTube[/ame]

It should be noted, the new head gasket looks quite a bit lower in quality than the OEM head gasket, which had copper rings around all inlets. The new one had non, just gasket padding. I'm a little disappointed considering the high price of it. I was expecting an OEM gasket or at least OEM specs.

Tomorrow I'll check the piston height on all 3 cyl's to test for a bent rod. I did notice #2 sticks above the cyl liner a tiny bit when near TDC. We'll see if the others match tomorrow. As for the cyl liners, they are nearly flush with the block. I'll get exact measurements for that tomorrow as well.

 

[Car Doc]

There's some good info here on drilling. I resharpen mine sometimes but didn't know the name for it, had to google "offhand sharpen twist drills" only to realize that's what I do. So, any tips on getting a hole drilled right in the center of a stud? I often drift off some and once that first small hole is drilled it's not so easy to get it straightened. Those Safety Drill things look pretty cool, maybe I'll have to ask for one for fathers day.

Takes a carefully placed center punch and/or a 135 degree split point bit, both is the best and a sharp one (my comment on new bits) that will start you drilling on a round surface even. :thumbsup:

 

[Car Doc]

Domush,

No man not now this thread is so far out in the ozone now why mess it up with the original topic. :laughing:

Facts as I see them-gasket at #2 is bad in the same spot it was the first time. The cylinder is still not firing based on the lack carbon created by the pre-chamber shadow on the piston.#1 and #2 is still missing meaning its not firing as well as 3 based on the carbon build up 3 is the only one tying its bales. The injectors look awesome great news!!!

We need to know what the pistons look like at TDC measure them with feeler gages using the deck as base not the liner tops and a dial indicator if you have one a real good eye ball will suffice on exactly what TDC end up at. After that I will help but I am sure I dont know what I am doing yet.

Oh and the gaskets are from china I am almost positive imagine that.

 

[kenmac]

Oh and the gaskets are from china I am almost positive imagine that.

I wonder if you can get an OEM head gasket. If so. you could check with 1 danny http://www.peq.com/ . He's a yanmar dealer & is able to get oem parts. I have bought parts from him

 

[Car Doc]

Don't know? I swear my gasket I got from Hoye's had the little gold china sticker on it and I said to myself thats just great put a zipper on this engine.

 

[kenmac]

Car doc,
As this thread is long and has sometimes gotten off course,,
I think I remember some talk about measuring from the deck ( top of block) to piston height to see if the pistons all come up even . If the rods have ever been worked . They may not all come up even. I had a race engine once & had a machine shop work the rods. They worked too much of the rod end which ended up dropping a couple of the pistons lower the others

 

[Car Doc]

Car doc,
As this thread is long and has sometimes gotten off course,,
I think I remember some talk about measuring from the deck ( top of block) to piston height to see if the pistons all come up even . If the rods have ever been worked . They may not all come up even. I had a race engine once & had a machine shop work the rods. They worked too much of the rod end which ended up dropping a couple of the pistons lower the others

You are right on kenmac all true and in these these the liners actually stick up above the deck .005-.007" and can vary from liner to liner and thats why I suggested the deck rather than liner tops since #2 is a low spot again. (I mentioned way earlier to measure the liner tops also...)

I am so almost absolutely certain he has 2 bent rods I wont bet my rep on it but thats what is off in the geometry imho....

 

[Barry 1]

Domush,
Got it running yet?

 

[Domush]

Got the freshly milled head back today. They had to mill it .011" in order to get it flat, which means it was nearly three times more warped than Max spec! (.004" is Max spec)

I cracked the exhaust manifold trying to pry it off. Welding cast iron sucks.

I managed to get five out of the six manifold nuts off using an acetylene torch, heating them red hot then coaxing them loose with whatever socket fit the uber rusted nut. One stud broke, which I'm hoping won't be a problem.

Tomorrow I'll be testing the injector timing with the injectors installed. That way I can know if an injector itself is firing too soon, now that I know the pump is properly timed.

I'll also be checking the piston heights at TDC in order to check for a possible bent rod.

Photos to come tomorrow. I know, an entire post without pictures! You can proceed to revolt.

 

[winston1]

Domush, I don't know how anyone could revolt against you. You have impressed everyone with your patience on this project. We are all ready for the big celebration of the final video. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[clemsonfor]

Im thinking that Head was possibly your problem!!! Hope this works for you this time.

 

[Car Doc]

I have been wondering where you went Domush glad you are still with us and good luck on the project! :thumbsup:

You already know this but my .002 remember to step up the torques and I do a circle and X them around the center and out. I always split them into more than is required say it calls for 3 (or doesnt say anything at all just the final number) and I oil them under the head of the bolt as well as the threads in this case where they are blind holes.

I make it 4 or 5 steps so they are as even as humanly possible. Like lets say these are 135 (dont quote me) or whatever do 25-45-60-80-100-135 for example and go back over @ 135 to double check. :thumbsup:

 

[Car Doc]

Domush,

This is something I did with my engine when I had my head milled I dont think Yanmar recommends milling heads from my research but we do what we have to.

You may ask Hoye or someone on here that knows more than me may chime in.

But under the pre-chambers there is a single copper sealing washer (and one under the injectors above the chambers) I put 2 under all my chambers to account for the milling so the chambers set higher in the head to clear the pistons just in case.

I posted this earlier dont know if you caught it or not? It worked fine on mine fwtw.

 

[Domush]

Okay, I measured the piston heights at TDC compared to the deck height and found:

#1: .019"
#2: .018"
#3: .018"

I'm going to guess that extra .001" doesn't really mean anything vital in terms of final compression.

Here are some pictures showing how the pistons and sleeves line up (in order of #1 -> #3):

Sorry the angles aren't all the same, not much room to hold my phone below the block.

What does concern me is the fact milling .011" from the head makes the pistons much closer to the head, even with the head gasket. Seeing as there are dents in the pistons where the injector nozzles have hit the pistons tops it appears the nozzles are a major concern, especially now.

I hate having to remove those nozzles (never did remove them completely), but if that is what is needed, so be it. I was contemplating simply grinding a flat spot into the nozzles in order to make them flush with the head, as right now only one of the three sits below the head surface, and only about .005". That would not require much grinding. It seems every time i have to remove something else, something else breaks and requires another Hoye order.

Opinions on grinding the nozzle bottoms instead of shimming?

Freshly milled head. Removed .011" from the surface. I checked the accuracy of their milling, as it appeared they milled it at an odd angle, but it measures perfectly (.000" difference) from the top of the head to the surface on all sides.

Different angle

 

[Car Doc]

Domush,

Glad to hear the rods are not bent I sure would have sworn they were by the pics! Actually the head is the same distance from the pistons the pre-chambers and valves are whats closer fwtw. And no .001" wont affect anything compression wise anyway.

I would not grind the pre-chambers. The "dents" you refer to are simply wear and tear from the injection process not parts touching.