Ym240d 3 point stuck in up position.

[Jmlcolorado]

I was spreading some dirt this evening for a neighbor using a blade.
Worked great. When I was done I stopped and raised the 3 point all the way up to travel home.
Now it won稚 drop.
It痴 stuck solid in the raised position.
I checked the lockout knob under the seat and rotated it both directions with no change.
Also checked the drop speed lever. No change in either direction. This was with engine running.
Machine has been off now for a couple hours and it痴 still locked up solid.
Anyone run into this?

 

[rScotty]

I was spreading some dirt this evening for a neighbor using a blade.
Worked great. When I was done I stopped and raised the 3 point all the way up to travel home.
Now it won稚 drop.
It痴 stuck solid in the raised position.
I checked the lockout knob under the seat and rotated it both directions with no change.
Also checked the drop speed lever. No change in either direction. This was with engine running.
Machine has been off now for a couple hours and it痴 still locked up solid.
Anyone run into this?

Yes, I have heard heard of it happening when the 3pt was forced high or low past where its internal stops. Usually by by backing into something while raising or lowering the implement and I guess it could happen by hitting a bump in transport with the implement lifted. In either case the lockage is said to be caused by the arms trying to move the piston farther than it is supposed to move.

Now keep in mind this is all hearsay; I've never fixed one that happened to.... or even seen one with that problem. So take it as a suggestion but not with real knowledge on my part. But the mechanical scuttlebut I have heard that it turned out to be either a broken return spring (simple) or else unfortunately something having to do with the piston push rod inside the 3pt cylinder falling out of position or somehow jamming the piston from moving.
The first is simple, the other one is more work. Neither is all that difficult. But don't force things. If it is the latter, you can break the piston and have a much larger job.
Here are some pages from the YM240 Hydraulic Repair Manual that you might not have seen & they might help.

There's hours of study material here, but if you understand one Yanmar 3pt lift you understand all vintage Yanmar 3pts. And like a lot of the vintage Yanmar designs they are among the best.

For that matter, the artistic work shown in the exploded diagrams from those old workshop manuals are the finest ever. Worth framing, IMHO.
rScotty






Here

 

[careyo63]

I'm with rscotty on the push Rod. Pay Attn. to the Feed Back Lever. The way it is showing in the Dia. I'm sure it is in the down position. Arms are all the way up but they will actually be falling. To Raise the position pushes in. Which your see the contact to the plunger is done by the bottom of the Push Rod Lever. That push rod should be moving so make sure it's not stuck in causing it to be stuck in the up position. My guess. The Arms In a bind is doubtful. :2cents:

 

[Jmlcolorado]

I'm with rscotty on the push Rod. Pay Attn. to the Feed Back Lever. The way it is showing in the Dia. I'm sure it is in the down position. Arms are all the way up but they will actually be falling. To Raise the position pushes in. Which your see the contact to the plunger is done by the bottom of the Push Rod Lever. That push rod should be moving so make sure it's not stuck in causing it to be stuck in the up position. My guess. The Arms In a bind is doubtful. :2cents:

I found a couple threads on a similar issue last night.
I cracked #8 in the photo. With the engine off, nothing happened. I fired it up to see if I got any flow. Nothing. But suddenly the 3 point dropped like a rock.
Tightened it back up and now it痴 working great.
I知 thinking maybe I pulled the raise lever all the way back, which is the wrong location. I suspect having it all the way up, and the drive home allowed the 3 point to bounce up enough to bind the piston.
I think maybe I got lucky. I値l be adding an adjustable stud to keep me from pulling that too far back and loading up the hydraulics. I致e got no reason to have the lever that far back.

 

[careyo63]

I know what your saying. High end stop his gone on mine. You can see empty holes is were I bet it was. Look at Hoye because they should have one or the Adjustable one which is 63-66 on the YM2000 3pt. control Dia.. Mine is at the lowest Position in my pic.. I have my Height set so not to go to high and use the set knob so when I have the Scoop BB. Etc. on I can set it not to let my handle go lower so I don't dig to deep.
It's not listed in this Pic. but the Hyd. oil case just to the right your see the Blk. handle. On the handle rod you set set nuts. That's how you prevent it from going higher to were you set it. It relieves the pressure to the To the Control valve.

 

[clemsonfor]

These are very simple. The rock shaft has to be bound up internally. Or the arms. OR there is one of the fluid return passages is blocked not allowing the fluid to return. The Vale could have come apart internally.

 

[CoyPatton]

I found a couple threads on a similar issue last night.
I cracked #8 in the photo. With the engine off, nothing happened. I fired it up to see if I got any flow. Nothing. But suddenly the 3 point dropped like a rock.
Tightened it back up and now it痴 working great.
I知 thinking maybe I pulled the raise lever all the way back, which is the wrong location. I suspect having it all the way up, and the drive home allowed the 3 point to bounce up enough to bind the piston.
I think maybe I got lucky. I値l be adding an adjustable stud to keep me from pulling that too far back and loading up the hydraulics. I致e got no reason to have the lever that far back.

If you are correct and your lever in a full raised position allows too much internal travel due to internal wear, a low tech temp fix would be to get a small machine bolt, washers and lick washer and install it into the slot at the top (I would suggest lock-tite also). As a temporary fix, this should prevent you from lifting to the full lift and a bounce prevent that internal shifting.
Also when transporting any implement across rough soil in a raise position, you may wish to lock the fluid flow with the valve under the seat.

 

[Jmlcolorado]

Okay, looks like I’ll need some assistance again.
Since this last time the 3 point got stuck up on its own, it’s been working fine. Couple hours of work on it maybe.
I’ve since installed a FEL.
I also installed a 5’ brush hog on the machine this morning for the first time and used it to now out 5 acres.
No issues.
I started using the FEL a litttle this evening. Not really work, just laying the bucket on the ground, shoveling stuff in, then dumping it.
Eventually I lost all hydraulics. Bucket was stuck up. Curl function wouldn’t work, and I looked back and found the brush hog all the way up again.
No response from the 3 point raise/drop lever at all. Same as before.

I took it back to the shop and pried it and found the hydraulic pump was HOT. Like boiling spit hot!

I figured I fried the pump.
I let it sit for a bit to cool down.
I disconnected the inlet hose from the FEl and fired up the machine. It flowed very well. Enough to think the pump was okay. Jokes it back up and the FEL worked fine for a minute then slowly post everything again.

I disconnected the inlet to the 3 point. Put the hose into the dipstick hole for the trans and fired up the machine.
Again, FEL worked perfectly again.
Knowing now there is an issue with the 3 point I checked the lockout knob. It’s half way between full locked in and full locked out.
Drop speed lever is vertical, full fast speed.

I hooked up the 3 point inlet hose again.
This whole time the 3 point was still up with the 5’ brush hog attached. So it had some weight on it.

I found if I stood on the back of the brush hog, the 3 point would drop slowly.
I got it all the way to the ground, fired up the machine, and the 3 point imediatly raised all the way up again.
Once all the way up, FEL would stop working.

Where do I start with this 3 point?!

It doesn’t appear it’s frozen in the bore. It seems like some valving is stuck internally.

 

[rScotty]

SNIP.....

I took it back to the shop and pried it and found the hydraulic pump was HOT. Like boiling spit hot!


I found if I stood on the back of the brush hog, the 3 point would drop slowly.
I got it all the way to the ground, fired up the machine, and the 3 point imediatly raised all the way up again.
Once all the way up, FEL would stop working.

Where do I start with this 3 point?!

It does not appear that it is frozen in the bore. It seems like some valving is stuck internally.

I underlined the parts of your message that seem to me to be the most significant. I have no idea if the FEL is hooked up right. That could be the problem right there.
But it does sound as though the 3pt hitch valving isn't working right.

Where I would start is describe how you have hooked up the FEL so we are all on the same page.

Most hydraulic problems on TBN come down to either a plugged up suction filter (cleanable in the Yanmar) or else it is how the FEL is plumbed. In this case we may have a 3pt valve problem too.

A hot pump is caused by restricted flow. Usually it is restricted return flow. That sounds like the FEL plumbing to me.
Yes, hydraulic pumps do run very hot. If it is boiling hot, the transhydraulic fluid is most likely been debased and will need to be replaced - but keep that old fluid until we find the problem. The fluid will be OK that long. You can use a light motor oil as your hydraulic fluid if you need to for diagnostics. 20w-20 is good.

Then for the 3pt problem - which may or may not be related .... or might even be dirt.... You go through the flow diagrams and artist cut-away illustrations in message #2 and study them until you understand how the valving is supposed to work. I think that you can then figure out exactly which valve it has to be since you found out that it lowers slowly and raises quickly.. those are key points.
Then having identified the probable valve, the cut-away illustations will show you how to find that valve on the tractor.
To help in your studies, I've also included the neutral postion flow diagram below.
good luck,
rScotty

 

[Jmlcolorado]

Thanks!
I have the 240’s hydraulic diagrams and briefly looked at them, but they made my head spin.
I will look more closely at them.

The way the FEL is hooked up:
The previous owner replaced the inlet line from the pump to the 3 point with a hose. I took that hose and installed it on the inlet port of the FEL.
I then took the outlet hose from the FEL and plumbed it to the inlet of the 3 point.

BTw, the FEL valve is the one from Hoye. As I understand, this is the proper one for this machine.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks!
I have the 240痴 hydraulic diagrams and briefly looked at them, but they made my head spin.
I will look more closely at them.

The way the FEL is hooked up:
The previous owner replaced the inlet line from the pump to the 3 point with a hose. I took that hose and installed it on the inlet port of the FEL.
I then took the outlet hose from the FEL and plumbed it to the inlet of the 3 point.

BTw, the FEL valve is the one from Hoye. As I understand, this is the proper one for this machine.

Well, that explains it. You cannot plumb that way. The outlet from the FEL control valve needs to go directly to the sump, not to the 3pt.

To accomplish what you are trying to do in the simplest way possible if you have a very basic FEL loader valve without a power beyond (PB) port, you would put a manual "either/or splitter valve" in the pressure line from the pump. It would then allow you to use the FEL or the 3pt hitch, but not both at once.

Some FEL loader valves can split the flow internally. If you have one of those - an it has the proper internal plug - which is probable if Hoye sent it. Then the valve body will have an inlet, outlet (return), and a "power beyond" port. Then the outler (return) line goes directly to the sump, and the "power beyond" port is used to feed the 3pt.

luck,
rScotty

BTW, those diagrams make everyone's head hurt. But just like exercise... you gotta do it.
And they are a heck of a lot easier than the computer graphical hydraulic schematics that are popular today. Yanmar paid some talented artists real money to make those cut-away illustrations. That is not computer; what you see there is real free-hand pencil & ink artwork.

 

[Jmlcolorado]

Some additional feedback.

With the 3 point stop valve closed, the FEL operates, although the hydraulics appear strained. And the FEL control levers are “sticky”. Meaning no matter what position I place
Them in they stay. They don’t return to center (this is a joystick style valve).

Obviously of I stand on the far back of the brush hog, it stays up.

If I leave the machine off, open the stop valve fully
open, the weight of me and the brush hog will lower the 3 point.
However, immediately upon restarting the tractor, the 3 point lifts all the way back up again.

 

[Jmlcolorado]

Looking at a cutaway of the 3 point, I noticed the 塗igh pressure outlet and the relieve valve are swapped on my machine. The relief valve is located on the passenger side of the machine.
Out of curiosity, I wanted to remove the two and see if there was and differences internally that would prevent me from swapping the two back to match the cutaway.
Upon unscrewing the High Pressure Outlet cap, the 3 point hagan to lower. With each turn, it lowered more and more until it had zero pressure on it at all.

 

[Jmlcolorado]

Well, that explains it. You cannot plumb that way. The outlet from the FEL control valve needs to go directly to the sump, not to the 3pt.

To accomplish what you are trying to do in the simplest way possible if you have a very basic FEL loader valve without a power beyond (PB) port, you would put a manual "either/or splitter valve" in the pressure line from the pump. It would then allow you to use the FEL or the 3pt hitch, but not both at once.

Some FEL loader valves can split the flow internally. If you have one of those - an it has the proper internal plug - which is probable if Hoye sent it. Then the valve body will have an inlet, outlet (return), and a "power beyond" port. Then the outler (return) line goes directly to the sump, and the "power beyond" port is used to feed the 3pt.

luck,
rScotty

BTW, those diagrams make everyone's head hurt. But just like exercise... you gotta do it.
And they are a heck of a lot easier than the computer graphical hydraulic schematics that are popular today. Yanmar paid some talented artists real money to make those cut-away illustrations. That is not computer; what you see there is real free-hand pencil & ink artwork.

Perhaps I知 reading how the loader valve is intended to be plumbed then.
This one does not have the power beyond cartridge.
Has 6 ports. 4 for loader up/down and tilt/curl. Then one inlet and one outlet.


I plumbed to match this diagram.

 

[Jmlcolorado]

Here is my valve.
Circled in yellow is the 菟ower beyond port which goes to the 3 point.
Circled in white is the 登utlet which is plugged.
Circled in blue is 妬nlet which comes straight from the hydraulic pump.

Also attached are the photos of the Hoye diagrams.

I think I plumbed it right?!

 

[rScotty]

Hmm.... In message #15, the photo posted fine but doesn't help much. We need more views and larger. The drawing might be more helpful, but the resolution is illegible. EDIT (AN HOUR LATER: I CAN SEE THEM NOW. WHAT HAPPENED??) Also when you use contractions in the text it goes weird on my computer screen, making it hard to figure what you mean.
Is that just me or does that happen to anyone else too?

Maybe you could try adjusting the way that your computer interfaces with this TBN Forum. That might help both posting issues. Here is what I would do:

Go up to the heading "My Home" at the top of the Forum page. Then on the left hand column go down to
"My Settings" and from the list select "General Settings". In "General Settings" towards the bottom you will see "Message Editor Interface" and three choices of type of editor that you can use.

I like to use the first editor: Enhanced Interface - It is full "What You See Is What You Get" or WYSIWYG Editing.
Try that one and also try the other choices to see if there is one that will allow your text to post with contractions.
Also see if one of those will help with the resolution of the drawing you posted.

There are some other settings that might help too.
For instance no matter whether you are Mac or Windows based, there is usually a "develop" or "User" tab somewhere in the tool bar that gives you a choice of how a forum editor relates to which web browser you are using.

OK. Back to Tractors and hydraulics.

The picture in message #14 came through clear enough, but it doesn't make sense to me hydraulically.

I would rather see it plumbed the way I described.
And BTW, make sure your return line running from loader control valve back to the sump is larger diameter than your pressure line to the loader. The return line should also be as short as possible. The idea is to reduce back pressure on the return line.

Also, I'm not clear if your loader valve has a power beyond port or not. Message #14 seems to say no PB port and #15 plus one of the drawings says it does. The other doesn't.
The power beyond port is NOT the same as the outlet (return) port. PB goes to another valve, return goes to the sump.

But you should always think about the following when using a new loader control valve:
Even when a loader control valve set has a power beyond or PB port, that port can be configured with plugs to fit two different types of hydraulic system. When you order a loader control valve it generally comes with both types of plugs that screw into the body of the loader control valve down inside the PB port. One plug is for an open center hydraulic system like you have. The other is for a closed center hydraulic system like some JDs have. You have to have the correct plug installed. If it's from Hoye, you probably do have the right one... if you have one at all....


Another piece of hydraulic scuttlebutt to think about.....When trouble-shooting or starting from scratch building a system you aren't familiar with..... you may find it easier to use a two lever FEL control valve with Open Center PB rather than any compact single joystick type. The old two lever controls are an older and simpler valve. So if you are buying by price, you can search around and get more control for your money with older two lever types. But that's probably NOT the problem here. Just saying......

luck, rScotty.

 

[Jmlcolorado]

Hmm.... In message #15, the photo posted fine but doesn't help much. We need more views and larger. The drawing might be more helpful, but the resolution is illegible. EDIT (AN HOUR LATER: I CAN SEE THEM NOW. WHAT HAPPENED??) Also when you use contractions in the text it goes weird on my computer screen, making it hard to figure what you mean.
Is that just me or does that happen to anyone else too?

Maybe you could try adjusting the way that your computer interfaces with this TBN Forum. That might help both posting issues. Here is what I would do:

Go up to the heading "My Home" at the top of the Forum page. Then on the left hand column go down to
"My Settings" and from the list select "General Settings". In "General Settings" towards the bottom you will see "Message Editor Interface" and three choices of type of editor that you can use.

I like to use the first editor: Enhanced Interface - It is full "What You See Is What You Get" or WYSIWYG Editing.
Try that one and also try the other choices to see if there is one that will allow your text to post with contractions.
Also see if one of those will help with the resolution of the drawing you posted.

There are some other settings that might help too.
For instance no matter whether you are Mac or Windows based, there is usually a "develop" or "User" tab somewhere in the tool bar that gives you a choice of how a forum editor relates to which web browser you are using.

OK. Back to Tractors and hydraulics.

The picture in message #14 came through clear enough, but it doesn't make sense to me hydraulically.

I would rather see it plumbed the way I described.
And BTW, make sure your return line running from loader control valve back to the sump is larger diameter than your pressure line to the loader. The return line should also be as short as possible. The idea is to reduce back pressure on the return line.

Also, I'm not clear if your loader valve has a power beyond port or not. Message #14 seems to say no PB port and #15 plus one of the drawings says it does. The other doesn't.
The power beyond port is NOT the same as the outlet (return) port. PB goes to another valve, return goes to the sump.

But you should always think about the following when using a new loader control valve:
Even when a loader control valve set has a power beyond or PB port, that port can be configured with plugs to fit two different types of hydraulic system. When you order a loader control valve it generally comes with both types of plugs that screw into the body of the loader control valve down inside the PB port. One plug is for an open center hydraulic system like you have. The other is for a closed center hydraulic system like some JDs have. You have to have the correct plug installed. If it's from Hoye, you probably do have the right one... if you have one at all....


Another piece of hydraulic scuttlebutt to think about.....When trouble-shooting or starting from scratch building a system you aren't familiar with..... you may find it easier to use a two lever FEL control valve with Open Center PB rather than any compact single joystick type. The old two lever controls are an older and simpler valve. So if you are buying by price, you can search around and get more control for your money with older two lever types. But that's probably NOT the problem here. Just saying......

luck, rScotty.

I’m working on my phone and for some reason anytime I add photos, any punctuation of any kind gets all jumbled up after I post. It only does that when photos are added. Sometimes I have the patience to go back and edit it so it’s proper, other times it’s overwhelming

My verbiage was incorrect in an earlier post when I stated I plumbed the outlet of the valve to the 3 point.
It wasn’t until I posted the Hoye’s control photos I realized I actually used the power beyond port and the outlet port was plugged out of the box.
I simply trusted how Hoye had the control setup with the temp plastic plugs for shipping was the proper ports to utilize.
Their control didn’t come with any instructions at all and the photos I posted were all I had to go off of when installing it.
I don’t suspect the loader valve to be the culprit as when I tested the output directly from the pump, it had filled a 1 gallon jug within about 30 seconds. Then when I tested the output of the control valve utilizing the hose that would be plumbed into the inout of the 3 point, it appeared to flow a similar rate.
As I understand, this valve is not intended to use both the loader and the 3 point simultaneously.

Also, this 3 point got stuck up like this once before on be before I ever installed a loader valve.
I suspect something is amiss within the 3 point itself causing pressure to flow into it, but not out. That’s where I get stuck since I have no real world experience with hydraulics to be able to reliably diagnose what the issue is.
It appears these are fairly simple mechanics, but without the knowledge of exactly what each piece does, it’s hard to break it down.

I’ll make a video tomorrow of exactly how I have it plumbed, and what I’m finding so as to better illustrate the condition.

 

[winston1]

I am not sure of anything on your machine but "if" you have your power beyond outlet going to the 3 point then you would need to have the outlet going directly to the sump. I would venture to say 80% of the old Yanmars loaders are plumbed without power beyond. This is just running the outlet from the control valve to the 3 point. The power beyond outlet would be plugged. You can read Hoyes shop notes on their valve to confirm what I am saying.

LOADER VALVE - JOYSTICK STYLE: Yanmar Tractor Parts

 

[rScotty]

I am not sure of anything on your machine but "if" you have your power beyond outlet going to the 3 point then you would need to have the outlet going directly to the sump. I would venture to say 80% of the old Yanmars loaders are plumbed without power beyond. This is just running the outlet from the control valve to the 3 point. The power beyond outlet would be plugged. You can read Hoyes shop notes on their valve to confirm what I am saying.

LOADER VALVE - JOYSTICK STYLE: Yanmar Tractor Parts

Not sure where you get that 80% number, I think you are trying to make a point rather than a number. I understand that...but I disagree.

I'm sure some tractors are plumbed in series so that the output of one system becomes the input to another....but I doubt that many are that way. I know in my 50 years in tractors I've seen it a few times....but not often. Yes, it will work that way. It just doesn't work well. The only advantage is a slight savings in cost and complexity.

The disadvantage is that systems in series interact with one another. That's no advantage & has a problem in that it makes trying to diagnose a failure difficult. When plumbed in series, the OP doesn't know if he has a problem with the loader or the 3pt and neither do we. The only way he will know is to isolate the systems, so why not plumb it that way to start? Plus in a series circuit any resistance in one device becomes a resistance to flow everywhere.... causing odd back pressures and pump overheating.
rScotty

 

[Jmlcolorado]

Okay I’m following what you are both putting down here.
It appears I SHOULD have an additional hose coming from the output of the loader valve to the sump they way I have it currently plumbed.
It will only take me a few minutes to disconnect the loader and hook the 3 point back up on its own. I’ll do that and see how that affects the 3 point as it will be the only thing plumbed into the tractor.