Winter starting - TC40DA

lhfarm · Nov 12, 2005

My tractor was a spring baby and we are starting our first cold weather season. There is nothing in the owners manual about special procedures. There is a note about the optional block heater for use below 0 degrees.

My normal process is to always pull the throttle all the way back when I shut down. I don't move it on startup. But last weekend - the first frosty morning - the engine spit, sputter and then died on the first start. I moved the throttle slightly, then did a restart. It started and ran.

So is it necessary to advance the fuel slightly on cold mornings? Should I cycle the glow plugs a couple of times before cranking?
Thanks for the advice.

MikePA · Nov 12, 2005

Page 2-5 of the TC25, 29 and 33 Operator's Manual has the following note;

"NOTE: When ambient temperatures are colder, a longer pre-heat time is necessary. Even after the cold start indicator light has gone out, the glow plugs will continue to heat if the key is held in the "HEAT" position."

Also, the starting procedure, regardless of the outside temperature is to "position the hand throttle forward so that it is one-fourth to one-third open when starting the tractor."

thcri · Nov 12, 2005

Yep, follow what Mike says. Keep your key in the heat position even after the light has gone out. I will keep mine there about ten seconds after the light has gone out. And the throttle up a bit helps.

murph

jinman · Nov 12, 2005

Here again is a difference between the Class II tractors and our deluxe model Class IIIs. Our tractors don't have a "HEAT" position on the ignition. As soon as the key is turned to the "RUN" position, the preheaters come on for 10 seconds and then automatically go off. To turn them back on for another cycle, we have to turn the switch off and then back to run.

I don't have a lot of experience in cold weather like some here, but it does get pretty cool in Texas for an hour or two in February. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Several times I've started the tractor in the 20º F range and I had to "bump" the throttle up slightly to keep the engine running smoothly. I just move it up a little and watch the tachometer. If the engine rpm goes above 1000, I pull the throttle back. I like to keep a cool engine well below 1000 rpm. Overreving a cold engine is hard on it. I've noticed that my rpm drops down to about 750 with the throttle pulled all the way back even when the engine is warm. When it's cold, the throttle needs to be open a little more to keep the engine running.

PineRidge · Nov 12, 2005

We're in Ohio where it can get pretty cold on a winters night. If you wait for the timer light to go you before you spin the starter on your Class III machine then you should't have any problem starting. I have always started the 40D at idle and gradually worked up from there.

DieselMonk · Nov 12, 2005

maybe the fuel was gelling and seperated a bit. I haven't noticed such thing as sputtering on my tractor and it can get cold here, plus we get mostly winterfuel here anyway. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

ccsial · Nov 13, 2005

I'd invest in the block heater. I plug mine in when it is below 30. Even below zero it starts like summer. I just let it run a bit to warm the hydraulic fluid. One of the nicest winter presents you can give your tractor.

frank_f15 · Nov 13, 2005

I always set my throttle before i shut i down to about 1100 or 1200 RPM, this way is where i want it on start up. in cold weather about 10 to 15 sec. on glow plugs and she fires right up.

djradz · Nov 14, 2005

Jim, I think my cold and warm low idle is about 950 rpms. I thought NH specs it at something like 1000. I seem to recall trying to set mine even lower and found it to hunt/waiver. Apparently you don't have the same problem.

jinman · Nov 14, 2005

( Jim, I think my cold and warm low idle is about 950 rpms. I thought NH specs it at something like 1000. I seem to recall trying to set mine even lower and found it to hunt/waiver. Apparently you don't have the same problem. )

You are right; I got it mixed up with my Cummins diesel in my truck. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif It idles at 750 rpm and my tractor idles at 900-1000 rpm. When it's cold and drops down to 750, that's when I bump the throttle up enough to get it into the 1000 rpm range. I still believe in keeping the rpm below 1000 when it's cold.

djradz · Nov 14, 2005

( that's when I bump the throttle up enough to get it into the 1000 rpm range. I still believe in keeping the rpm below 1000 when it's cold. )

Jim, I don't know enough about diesels to really have a knowledgeable opinion on this, but I thought I've read several times where folks on TBN recommended cold idle speeds, for any period of time over a minute or so, of something higher, so as to provide good lubrication. Have I missed something or misinterpreted this?

jinman · Nov 14, 2005

( ...thought I've read several times where folks on TBN recommended cold idle speeds, for any period of time over a minute or so, of something higher, so as to provide good lubrication. )

Duane, I'm not sure I understand your question, but are you saying that someone recommended idling at higher than 1000 rpm when cold to establish good lubrication? I don't recall reading that, but I have read that all engines should have time to warm up the cylinder walls to prevent scoring. I think that danger goes away pretty quickly once the oil pressure is established on modern engines, but I still can't bring myself to raise the rpm much above 1000 rpm for a couple of minutes in warm weather and even up to twice that long in "Texas-cold" weather. I've also heard that once lubrication is established, an engine under moderate load warms up much faster than a no load condition. I suppose all those things could be true. I had a neighbor who used to start his car and race the engine way up high immediately. I used to cringe because I could swear I heard the valves rattle. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

kozak · Nov 14, 2005

djradz,

I am also not an authority on this especially when it comes to Tractors. However... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif....I would think lubrication for a Tractor is similar if not identical to a vehicle. I had a debate with a fellow colleague I used to carpool with on this exact question. I was brought up (from my limited understanding) that warming the engine at a standstill was a good thing. My colleague disagreed & finally told me if I did'nt believe him then I should read my car owners manual. Sure enough, in small print, the manufacturer recommended only running the engine with the car at standstill for approximately 30 to 40 seconds when first starting in cold weather. Then you are supposed to move forward SLOWLY for another couple of minutes & SLOWLY get up to speed. I believe this is to allow lubrication to get to all the moving parts much quicker. I would think the same applies to Tractors. Jim & others will either concur or slam me big time. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jinman · Nov 15, 2005

( Jim & others will either concur or slam me big time. )

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Kozak, I think you are hedging your bet. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I checked my Owners Manual and it says nothing I could find about engine rpm or warmup. From that I'd say as soon as the oil pressure is established to wash the cylinder walls and lubricate all moving parts, you are good to go, but I still can't bring myself to operate at full engine PTO rpm until the temperature is in the green operating range or very near it. That happens pretty quickly on our tractors if the coolant drain "bypass" is closed off as many of us have done.

I did notice something very interesting relating to the ROPS. My Operators Manual said that if you operate the tractor with the ROPS folded or removed, you should not wear the seat belt. I bet I could start pages and pages of controversy with that statement in the open forums. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: My brain is just waking up so I thought of one more thing. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

When you start a very cold engine, it takes a lot more effort from the starter and the engine turns over more slowly until it starts. Why is that? Is it because the cold engines tolerances and clearances are closer/tighter than spec or is it completely due to the viscosity change of the oil/lubricant? If it's because the cold engine tolerances are tighter, what effect is running the engine at high rpm? Any? Hmm...

DieselMonk · Nov 15, 2005

Jim,

didn't I hear something that the new green tractors are actually reving up their engines automatically to lower emissions during warm up? Now they said that it didn't hurt the engine. But who knows if their engine is built for that or just a hoax.
As for me I am a firm believer in synthetic oil, starting the engine up and let it idle for 10 to 20 sec. at 1000rpm then working the engine in a moderate level until she is getting the operating temperature. Then give her the juice. Never had an engine fail, always got high hours or km with that procedure and the engine warms up faster.
Forgot to mention something. Driving the turbo cool again after working full bore is important too.

Max

djradz · Nov 16, 2005

( Duane, I'm not sure I understand your question, but are you saying that someone recommended idling at higher than 1000 rpm when cold to establish good lubrication? )

Exactly, but it was not in the NH forum, so I'll have to do plenty of searching when I get time. Seems like it was either in the oil or operating forums. I think what they were saying was that diesels either don't lube well when cold or at low RPMs, or maybe don't warm up well at low RPMs, so the warmup is extended - something like that. I was hoping someone would chime-in or recall - hopefully someone with a much better memory than mine. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

DieselMonk · Nov 16, 2005

Some excavators have that feature too, but slightly altered. First the engine will idle and as the engine warms up the computer will rev the engine a couple hundred rpms higher every minute or so, until the hydraulic fluid is warm. I like that idea better, than rev a cold engine. But again... if the engine is built for reving up while cold, like a better oil pump and more oil passages for quicker lubrication, why not? Since the Boomers don't have that feature, I wouldn't try it.

Max

dqdave1 · Nov 16, 2005

I will agree on synthetic oil; the best for cold starts and everything else. Read about it anywhere. We all might get confused about cold engine references as car manufacturer must meet federal mandates to gas mileage so they will tell you to start and drive; this is not great news for the internal parts of an engine or drive train but it will dictate better gas mileage to the manufacturer. It only makes common sense that all fluids are a "little" stiffer when cold; thus move more slowly cold; much lubrication has left internal parts via gravity so when starting cold "be careful" start it up as slow as possible without it stalling; this may mean a little "extra" throttle to keep it running let it warm up ; I don't think you need more than a minute; if it is a hydro unit ; keep it in nuetral and step on forward and reverse pedals to move fluid around a little; run your FEL through its cycles and begin work; just like when you get out of bed in the morning; most do not start running as fast as they can at first. "just be logical" engine block heater is what I should have.

rcraft · Nov 17, 2005

Diesel engines have a much higher compression ratio than gas engines, and most have longer strokes than gas engines. There is always a period of time the engine does not get any lubrication when it first starts (after a long period of shut down) therefore it is a good idea to start the engine at slightly above idle RPMs. The pistons on diesels travel more in the cylinders because of the longer strokes and are more susceptable to wear until the oil reaches the cylinders. Usually the bigger the engine the longer you should idle it before putting it to work. The modern car gas engine lubricates almost instantly and so the warm up period is reduced to seconds.

CT_Tree_Guy · Nov 28, 2005

Hi all -

To me, this (lubrication, idling, warm-up) is a very important topic, and I highly recommend this thread that I think was being referred to.

To idle or shut off - which is best?

Here's a quote from one of my posts in that thread:

"This thread has caused me to make some significant changes to my "old" way of doing things. I used to wait for the engine to reach normal operating temperature before even taking off, and at a fairly low idle, maybe 1000. Now I warm up at a faster idle, more like 1400, and take off much sooner, maybe after reaching 1/4 of normal temp, at around 2000 to get the engine to warm up that much more quickly. No heavy work until it's fully warmed up, as always."

I'd like to add that I'm using Amsoil 10W-30 synthetic, especially for the cold weather (I hear you Jinman about warming up in cold weather), and for the added protection I think it provides in the event of a cooling failure. Just a little insurance I guess, that I might never need, but nice to have IMO.

Don't want to start a dino/synthetic debate, to each his own. Amen.