Winch Modifications

[J_J]

Bob,

How did you plumb that valve?

I may have answered my own question. In order to reverse the flow at the winch, from the seat, you would have to use the QA hyd. In doing so, you cause hyd fluid to flow to the new valve when in the fwd position. However if you reverse the flow using the QA lever, you will be sending fluid to the PB port of the new valve. and the used fluid from the winch will exit out the IN port, back to the QA valve, and then to tank.

I am not sure this is a good idea. Logical thing to do would be to send fluid to the new valve with the hyd flow going from the PB port of the FEL valve to the IN port of the winch valve,and reverse the flow at the winch valve only.

For faster winch operation, use the PTO circuit. It is one way only and can be locked on by a switch.

If I am wrong, I am sure someone will correct me.

What say others?

 

[MossRoad]

I say the fluid comes into the valve and if it is centered the fluid goes directly back to the tank.

If he moves the lever forward, the fluid goes through the valve through a port, through the winch motor, back to the valve and back to the tank.

If he moves the lever back to center, the fluid just goes back to the tank.

If he moves the lever to reverse, the fluid goes the opposite way through the winch motor and then back to the tank.

Now if he tried to do it from the seat, I am not sure what would happen, as I do not know the valve on the back can handle open center in reverse flow condition and I do not know if the reliefs in the rear valve would work in reverse flow.

 

[J_J]

The problem with that is he said he could control the winch by sitting in the seat or at the winch by locking rear valve open. That, to me means that if he locks the rear valve in fwd position, then the QA lever will activate the winch. The fluid will flow from the QA valve to the IN port of the rear valve, and the winch will pull in. Now if he reverses the QA lever, he is sending the fluid to the rear valve in the reverse direction.

If he does not use the QA valve but lets the fluid flow from the PB port of the FEL, then he can use the rear valve as was designed, with supply fluid coming to the IN port, and exiting out the PB/OUT port. The winch will reel out and reel in with the rear valve lever position.

Bob, how about a rough drawing of the valve and hose arrangements.

Where is the fluid for the rear valve coming from?

 

[J_J]

I say the fluid comes into the valve and if it is centered the fluid goes directly back to the tank.

If he moves the lever forward, the fluid goes through the valve through a port, through the winch motor, back to the valve and back to the tank.

If he moves the lever back to center, the fluid just goes back to the tank.

If he moves the lever to reverse, the fluid goes the opposite way through the winch motor and then back to the tank.

Now if he tried to do it from the seat, I am not sure what would happen, as I do not know the valve on the back can handle open center in reverse flow condition and I do not know if the reliefs in the rear valve would work in reverse flow.

What you say is true, but what is the source of the fluid for the rear valve?

 

[MossRoad]

. Now if he reverses the QA lever, he is sending the fluid to the rear valve in the reverse direction.

I thought that's what I said. :laughing:

 

[J_J]

I believe one of the guys on TBN connected his valve up backward, and it cracked his valve. It would be logical as the out port are usually rated about 500 psi.

We don't know if Bob used the OUT port or the PB port on the second valve. The PB port will take the pressure, but the out port might not.

The relief will be on the way out of the valve.

Don't know exactly what will happen to all the functions if a hyd valve is connected backward.

If you pressurized the tank port,;you might be in trouble.

 

[BobRip]

Bob,

Are you using the PTO hyd's or the Quick Attach circuit hyd for the winch?

It's the quick attach one. I think with the only 4000 lb force on this winch the quick attach is adequate. The old 10000 lb one came off the PTO Hyd and probably needed it just before your PT broke in half .

 

[BobRip]

Bob
Thats a neat installation and will be really versatile. Very nice job Bob.:thumbsup:
Its great having a winch in the front or back. I use the small grapple boom on the back to load the heavy winch assembly up to slide onto the receivers so I don't have to lift it with my back. these things are heavy. Watch for the cable/choker slinging back at you under load if you are standing next to the winch.

Yes that winch is heavy. Getting it aligned takes too many seconds. Do you have a picture of the boom you put on back.

 

[BobRip]

I believe one of the guys on TBN connected his valve up backward, and it cracked his valve. It would be logical as the out port are usually rated about 500 psi.

We don't know if Bob used the OUT port or the PB port on the second valve. The PB port will take the pressure, but the out port might not.

The relief will be on the way out of the valve.

Don't know exactly what will happen to all the functions if a hyd valve is connected backward.

If you pressurized the tank port,;you might be in trouble.

First thanks for the comments. I want this thing to be safe.

I am using the C and P ports to bring and return the fluid to the valve. The T port is blocked. I figure (wrongly maybe) that the relief valve on the quick attach valve will relieve pressure if needed.

 

[BobRip]

Bob, how about a rough drawing of the valve and hose arrangements.

Where is the fluid for the rear valve coming from?

The fluid for the rear valve is coming from the quick connect connectors which also go to the quick attach cylinder. This fluid of course goes through the quick attach valve.

 

[J_J]

I don't understand the C port. I am guessing that you are referring to the PB port. You might get away with that for a while, but you risk destroying the valve. The return port gallery in the valve usually can't take more than 500 psi.

Have you done a complete test on the setup? Have you pulled or released a heavy load.

I think I understand why nothing bad has happened. In the reverse mode you are extending the cable with min pressure. Unlike a cyl at it's pressure limits, the hyd motor in reverse is just unwinding the cable.

In the reverse mode from the front valve, the relief on the rear valve only sees the fluid on it's way out of the valve, which is the IN port.

I would still recommend the solenoid valve for winch operation. You can move the fwd and rev control wherever you want.

If you did not install the PB sleeve to block the return galleries, the OUT port is the same as the PB port.

 

[BobRip]

I could plump the flow from the PTO circuit if damaging the new valve is a problem I looked at the specs and they say the maximum pressure at the tank (T) port is 500 PSI. I have that blocked off. There is a plug for power beyond operation. The note says install this plug for power beyond operation. This appears to block on the tank (T) port from the C port and allow high pressure on the output of C.

 

[BobRip]

I don't understand the C port. I am guessing that you are referring to the PB port. You might get away with that for a while, but you risk destroying the valve. The return port gallery in the valve usually can't take more than 500 psi.

Have you done a complete test on the setup? Have you pulled or released a heavy load.

I think I understand why nothing bad has happened. In the reverse mode you are extending the cable with min pressure. Unlike a cyl at it's pressure limits, the hyd motor in reverse is just unwinding the cable.

In the reverse mode from the front valve, the relief on the rear valve only sees the fluid on it's way out of the valve, which is the IN port.

I would still recommend the solenoid valve for winch operation. You can move the fwd and rev control wherever you want.

Our messages crossed. The C port on this valve becomes the PB port when you put the plug in the C port. See my previous post. The PB port should take full pressure?

I have not pulled a heavy load yet.

 

[J_J]

I am not trying to bash your setup, but I have never seen or heard of a setup like yours, and operate correctly. I am not so positive that it will work. I hope it does work for you.

 

[BobRip]

I am not trying to bash your setup, but I have never seen or heard of a setup like yours, and operate correctly. I am not so positive that it will work. I hope it does work for you.

Oops! I noticed just now that the T port is being used instead of C. I am going to call Surplus Center tomorrow and get a second opinion. After our discussions I now understand a lot more about this valve. I did not understand the plug symbol. You are right in that tank pressure should not exceed 500 PSI. I did discuss this with the tech support guy at surplus center.

J_J and Moss, thanks for all of the input, comments, etc. I think you just saved me from a bad error. J_J, I know you are trying to be helpful and I appreciate it. I have a lot to learn about hydraulics.

Oh, if I used the PTO would the extra flow damage the winch motor?

 

[BobRip]

I just found a way to copy the valve connections drawing. If you follow the C port in from the left, then down, then left - You will see a square box. That square box is the plug (I think). I hope this helps.

 

[J_J]

What is the GPM capacity of the winch motor? GPM will determine speed of the hyd motor. That valve will handle 8 GPM's, should you continue to use it.

If you are going to use that valve, I would set the front valve to send fluid back to the rear valve using correct ports. I would only use the lever on the rear valve for the winch control. The out flow from the winch would exit the valve via the tank port. That flow would then go through the front valve and then to tank.

 

[BobRip]

What is the GPM capacity of the winch motor? GPM will determine speed of the hyd motor. That valve will handle 8 GPM's, should you continue to use it.

If you are going to use that valve, I would set the front valve to send fluid back to the rear valve using correct ports. I would only use the lever on the rear valve for the winch control. The out flow from the winch would exit the valve via the tank port. That flow would then go through the front valve and then to tank.

I don't know the GPM of the winch motor. It is at least 4GPM. I would need to call PT for that.

I called Surplus Center and he agreed with J_J. I then called Prince and talked to Dave. After a 10 minute discussion we agreed on the following setup.

1. Put the plug in the C port to enable power beyond. This separates the T from the C port.

2. Tie one line from the quick attach hydraulics to the P port and one to the C.

3. Set the relief valve in the new valve to max.

4. On the T port: Either vent it or return it to the tank. With the relief valve set at max, the valve in the Power Trac aux hydraulics will provide the relief function. However if there were some leakage to the T port, the pressure could build up and damage the valve.

I hope this is clear. My thanks for all of the comments. I go now to implement this.

 

[J_J]

Bob,

Did they say it was alright to pass fluid into the PB port?

I am still not understanding this.

Any fluid used by the work ports will flow out the tank/Out port. You can not just vent it. Tank port should go to tank/reservoir.

The PB port is used to pass fluid downstream.

Your rear valve will work as a winch valve if you do not use the QA valve to reverse the flow through the rear valve.

JMHO

 

[BobRip]

What is the GPM capacity of the winch motor? GPM will determine speed of the hyd motor. That valve will handle 8 GPM's, should you continue to use it.

If you are going to use that valve, I would set the front valve to send fluid back to the rear valve using correct ports. I would only use the lever on the rear valve for the winch control. The out flow from the winch would exit the valve via the tank port. That flow would then go through the front valve and then to tank.

I don't know the GPM of the winch motor. It is at least 4GPM. I would need to call PT for that.

I called Surplus Center and he agreed with J_J. I then called Prince and talked to Dave. After a 10 minute discussion we agreed on the following setup.

1. Put the plug in the C port to enable power beyond. This separates the T from the C port.

2. Tie one line from the quick attach hydraulics to the P port and one to the C.

3. Set the relief valve in the new valve to max.

4. On the T port: Either vent it or return it to the tank. With the relief valve set at max, the valve in the Power Trac aux hydraulics will provide the relief function. However if there were some leakage to the T port, the pressure could build up and damage the valve.

I hope this is clear. My thanks for all of the comments. I go now to implement this.

Edit on this: The tank port is putting out a lot of oil through the vent I drilled in the cap. After talking with the Prince guy again, he stated that you can expect a lot of leakage flow. I will now have to return the T port to the tank. Well, live and learn. I have to get some parts and a hose made up.