Why not make a fixed ROPS foldable???

[HarleyScooter]

I find this interesting, what do some of you do with your tractors? If I were to roll my tractor it would end up on it's side, at say 5 mph unless you are on a cliff it would just go on it's side. We are not running outlaw racers, if someone wants to modify their rop's it is up to them. Any good design on a hinge and a decent weld will hold up to a slow roll onto it's side. Welds are very strong if done properly, I know alot of you guy's do projects, think about the last time you were trying to take something apart and missed cutting a small weld somewhere, even a tac can be hard to break. This is just my humble opinion after being a certified welder for 27 years prior to my retirement. But everyone has to do what makes them feel safe.

 

[daTeacha]

Henro -- wouldn't it be more of a rural legend than a urban one?? I don't know too many city types with tractors. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regarding the brakes on trucks and cars -- the issue isn't so much whether or not the things will stop the car/truck in normal driving, but how they will perform in a long hard stop. Brakes work by converting motion to heat through friction. If you reduce the mass of the brake disc or drum, you reduce it's ability to dissipate heat, allowing it to get too hot in a long downhill application with a heavy load. The extra heat will boil your brake fluid, making the brakes go away (fade), causing you to lose your ability to stop, leading to a collision with the resultant losses to life, limb or property. Isit likely to happen? No. Is it safe to turn your rotors a bit beyond specs? Probably, if all your stopping is normal and you don't turn them so far that the pads fall out of the calipers when you push hard. Would I do it? No.

Are there people out there making sure you don't modify your ROPS? No, they only exist on forums like this.

Will you run into legal problems if you change your own ROPS? No. Just like seatbelts, they things are there to meet a legal requirement for the manufacture and sale of the equipment. BUT, since running a tractor around on your own land does not yet require a license or government permission (Thank You, God) to my knowledge, you can pretty much do what you want with the thing.

Will you be liable if someone gets hurt while using your tractor with a modified ROPS? Maybe, if they can prove negligence on your part was a contributing factor to any injury they received or damage they caused.

All conversations of this type boil down to who is going to be asked/sued to pay how much in the event of an unlikely occurrence.

Some of us are risk takers and just say change it and don't worry about it. Others are worriers and say don't change it no matter what. Some of us accept responsibility for our actions or live with the fact that accidents happen. Others figure everything that goes wrong in life is someone elses fault and that someone should be made to pay for causing a little unpleasantness in their life.

The manufacturers have deep pockets from the perspecitive of the normal person, and are prime targets of the liability lawyers who advertise on TV for people who got hurt somehow to come see them. Therefore, they write their owners manuals with all kinds of warnings, cautions, health and safety risks, etc. They do everything they can to cover their um, differentials, in case they get sued. Same with commercial users, rental companies, and employers.

Would I mod my ROPS if it needed it? Yes.
Would I sue someone if I rolled the tractor and got hurt, regardless of ROPS performance? No. I figure it's my fault if I roll the tractor, not the fault of the guy who built it. The only way I would consider such a thing is if a wheel broke due to a manufacturing defect or something and caused the rollover.
Would my survivors do so if I was killed? I certainly hope not. I wouldn't want to think I had married or raised people of that type.

We try to teach 4 R's in my school, not just 3. Readin', 'Ritin', 'Rithmetic, and RESPONSIBILITY.

 

[PILOON]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( HEY BILL ; i would do it and worry about it later. If i was to buy a new tractor and the Rops wast tall to fit in my garage, i would have no quals about cutting it and shorting it and welding it back together. )</font>

However if you'd want to preserve the strength you would have to use an insert or inner sleeve.
This procedure is used all the time to repair aircraft structural tubing parts and very specific guides exist covering the issue.

I once modified seat assemblies and they passed tests up to 12g's.

I'd suggest that the sleeve method would be safest way to create a substiture for a foldable ROPS providing the insert is long enough and a snug fit and surely superior to any hinge.

Not mentioned in this thread is another possibility.

If the additional clearance needed is minor and the rops is offset from the axle you could always 'hump' your way under a doorframe by driving the front wheels over a ramp.
When the front lifts up the back will lower.
We used to get aircraft with ,say, a 23ft tail into a hanger with a 20ft door that way.

Might be a solution in some cases.

 

[TheKid]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( And when you sell the tractor, your mod will continue to carry, in my mind, YOUR liability to whoever operates it. )</font>

One way around the libility issue would be to have the new owner sign a liability wavier which includes the information that the ROPS has been modified and it no longer meets OSHA regulations.

Waviers are so common today that I'd bet almost everyone here has signed a few of them. If your kids play any type of organized sports, or you have ever rented any type of tool or equipment you've signed one. In some cases, like going to a baseball game, you don't even have to sign a wavier for it to be in effect.

 

[Henro]

The reason I brought this up was a comment by RonR in another thread where he indicated he had a strong desire to have a folding ROPS on his tractor. For some reason that sentence he wrote stuck in my mind after reading it. RonR REALLY seemed to want a folding ROPS. I could feel it...

Being a practical kind of guy part of the time, in my mind I tried to blow the smoke out of the way and to see the issue at hand.

Is there any reason to believe that a qualified welder should not be able to duplicate what a welder in the factory does? Doubt it. Is there any reason why the end result should be weaker than the original folding ROPS, if the OEM design is duplicated? Doubt it. Net conclusion on my part? If the hinge was added and the tractor rolled or back flipped, protection offered by the ROPS would not be less than what is offered by OEM folding ROPS.

From the practical side, the protection offered should be as good as it was to start with. All the other legal issues fit into the smoke side of the equation in my mind. I don't mean to make light of them as they are real issues, especially if the tractor would be used in a commercial venture, etc. But we are talking home use by a private party.

Granted I am putting some faith in Kubota engineers and assume that the hinge assembly they designed is adequate for the job intended.

To carry this discussion a step further, some of you may remember that I added a light duty FOPS to my tractor. The reason was because I feared that trees on my back hill, and had visions of sugar plumbs dancing in my head...no, that's not it...had visions of the tractor with ROPS up, and with me securely belted in, going over on its side, next to a tree, with the tree on my side of the ROPS...can't get the belt loose, tree folds me in half and squeezes me into the seat...OUCH!

So I built this "head protector" that slips over the ROPS, and is held securely in place at the ROPS end and also supported in the front by the loader structure.

Using the logic discussed in this thread, my modification would be "illegal" too, wouldn't it? By the same token, this protector has protected my head a couple times from falling stuff, including a full bundle of shingles, that slid down the loader arms and was caught by the hood guard and front uprights. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif But that's another story...

This modification actually has helped make my tractor safer than it was with just a ROPS on it. I am glad I did not let the smoke get in my eyes and prevent me from implementing this idea on my tractor.

Ironic, but the B2910 ROPS is folding, but it has never been folded and probably never will be... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Wonder if I should weld that hinge up and make it stronger, since I am never going to use it anyway? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Attached is a picture of the bad boy... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[daTeacha]

But, if you rolled the tractor with the FOPS on it and tried to hold the tractor manufacturer responsible for a poorly designed tractor that rolled too easily, you could lose due to the extra weight you have added up high.

Now that you're done laughing, think about the folks who sued car manufacturers after they drove their SUV's like sports cars and rolled them over. Anyone here is going to understand that a 6 1/2' tall 4X4 station wagon with a load on the roof rack is not going to go around a corner like a Porsche, but that basic bit of knowledge is not found in the heads of all who are able to buy and drive a private vehicle.

As far as how we use our tractors, if I roll mine on my property, it will most likely not simply land on it's side and stop there without the ROPS. It would roll like a lumpy log down the hill. Going up a hill with a 4X4 tractor and a load on the back can make them flip over backwards, again making a ROPS a very handy thing to have.

Just a thought about folding vs. non-folding ROPS. On the same model tractor, are they bolted to the tractor in the same way? I seem to remember a difference in the way the things are mounted, which in turn would mean differences in the way they are stressed in a rollover, which would lead to some question about the integrity of changes to the structure even if the original design hinges were used.

It's amazing to me how much time and thought we spend on something none of us ever intends to use for it's designed purpose. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[RedRocker]

You were my mentor Henro, the same thoughts entered my mind about a tree falling on me from the side while I was safely strapped into my seat.

 

[HarleyScooter]

daTeacha, I totally agree with your statement about a tractor without a ROPS being like a lumpy log going down a hill, when I made the statement about just rolling on its side I was refering to a tractor with a ROPS. The way changing my friends ROPS to folding came about was because he was going to take it off and leave it off, I thought that would be a bad idea so I told him I could make it fold if HE WANTED. The first time out with the modified ROPS he kind of tried it out, it is the first tractor with a ROPS that he has operated and he caught a tree branch with it and the front of the tractor got pretty high in the air before the ROPS slipped under the branch. By the way were is Funk?
I guess we will be ok if we keep the shiny side up?

 

[Jagmandave]

Since I made my own ROPs, if and/or when I sell the tractor I'll remove it and either give it to the new owner labeled as "Scrap metal" or keep it............but while I have my tractor, I feel comfortable with it on there, it's better than what I had before, which was nuttin!
I had no qualms about making it or installing it, and while I'm not a "Certified" welder, I've been doing it long enough that I feel competent enough to risk at least my own life with it........

 

[daTeacha]

Well, HarleyScooter, since you're a fellow Buckeye, I'm just totally flabbergasted that you haven't been to Funk yet! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm about 45 minutes from Belden Village mall. My kids just blew Cleveland Benedictine out of the water at the Canton Civic Center last night if you're a b'ball fan.

To find Funk, go west on 30 to Wooster. Then go south at the 3/226 exit. When you come to the first traffic light by Miller Well supply, turn right onto SR 95. Go about 5 miles to Blachleyville, cross the flats if the road isn't under water for the next mile or so, and Bingo! you are in Funk. If you prefer, follow 30 right through Wooster, continue towards Mansfield until you find county road 16 crossing 30. Turn south. Go about 4 or 5 miles to the stop sign and you are at the Funk Country Mall, also known as the General Store and Sherriff's outpost. That's beautiful downtown Funk. I live in the 'burbs. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I have a house and 2400 sq. ft. shop sitting on 7.5 acres of wooded land for sale if you want to move out to the country and help pay for my tractor purchase. -- 15 minutes from town and a few light years from city life.

 

[HarleyScooter]

Jagman, that ROP's looks great, if I was buying your tractor and you labeled that scrap metal I would be bummed out because I would just have to bolt it back on. I have seen alot of welds in my day, and the only difference between a good welder and a certified welder is A PIECE OF PAPER.
Scott

 

[theonlybull]

well. buy the sounds of this, i better not modify my rops... wait. i don't have one... none of our tractors do, except our'70 580 case, and that's only because we modified a tractor cab, that had a rops in it to fit... i'm the 4th generation to run our farmall, a couple of our homemade tractors, and 3rd to run our JD mt, and 420 crawler.... never had an issue, and we spend alot of time on side hills.

this all comes down to the what if's. if it's for your use only, go ahead. plan on replacing the rops if you ever sell the tractor... simple.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I'm wondering if there is a published spec. for materials and design on a rops. Like tubing diameter wall thickness , mild steel,chromemolly. I put in rollcages in drag cars and NHRA and IHRA specify tubing type wall thickness and how many bars and where they have to atach to. I would think this would be easier specify for a tractor than a race car where every pound makes a difference.
P.S I was at the Richie Bro. 3 day auction last week and saw rops modified on every thing from D8's to skidsteers. ????
Where was the rops police.

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( but ROPS implementation was done by a complete nitwit (probably in conjunction with a herd of attorneys) who couldn't be bothered to measure the height of the average garage door or person, )</font>

I can't see where Rops implementation should have anything to do with darage door heights. The rops on my 7610 won't fit in my garage.. heck.. the rear tires on my 7610 won't fit inmy garage...thus the rops has no bearing on the tractor going into the garage.. etc..

Darn it.. if only my rops were foldable.. my tractor might make it intot he garage.. right? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[rambler]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
I do question if the liability of modifying a ROPS by adding a hinge that duplicated what the OEM does would be any more of a concern than making a repair to a vehicle that was in an accident, for example. Or say welding up a frame on an old vehicle.

The point I was trying to make was that I would be willing to take the risk of modifying a ROPS if I wanted to, as the reality of the matter is that the modification would not weaken the ROPS structure. I know it can be argued that one has not proved that the structure was not weakened, but in a sense it would have been proven by the orginal OEM design which was copied.

I really have no interest in racing cars, but there are people who do this and install roll cages and so on in vehicles for racing/recreational purposes. Is there a liability concern in these cases? I don't know but do know a lot of people are doing these things, and I doubt they are all doing the welding themselves. Many do it themselves, but some are doing it and getting paid to do it for others. How would welding up a roll cage for someone be different than modifying a ROPS on someone's tractor? Granted the roll cage is an addition, while the hinge on a ROPS would be a modification. But both are installed for the same purpose, protection of the operator of the vehicle.
)</font>

I don't get worried about what people do with their equipment. I took the ROPS off my 1720 last year as it doesn't fit inside the barn door I use it in.

Liability is the name of the game. The unibody engine frame on dad's Nova seperated from the rest of the car - only the bell housing was holding the engine compartment on. Noticed it because the clutch would slip - clutch was good, engine compartment was moving..... Anyhow, local mechanic would not fix it for liability, but he found a welder that made brackets - that way mechanic could shift liability to the welder. Also wanted cash on that job, no paper trail.

RR had track bits break, needed them welded. An old-time welder (relative, actually, with _some_ personality....) bragged he was the only one in a 5 state area that would weld them together. Of course, it was liability - no other welder would take it on, this guy welded out of his garage on his city lot for 35 years, doubt he ever had insurance.

So liability does enter into it.

The sanctioning body of the race specifies what roll cage is needed. Pipe size & thickness, number, type of corner gussets, etc. It's all very, very spelled out. The race we help marshal & time had an accident, driver & codriver were killed. SCCA stopped santioning the events, insurance spiked up too high from that. The people building the roll cage have nothing to do with it, as they followed the design spec to the letter. Sanctioning body ends up holding the ball on a deal like that.

Are you using the same welding rod as the OEM? Is the tube any thicker on the new foldable welded ones? Is the base different, to make up for the folding joint? Don't think you can say you are copying 100% what the company did.....

ROPS is a safety device, only purpose. A truck frame is designed for a whole lot more, & needs to meet weight & stiffness specs. Just a different engineering deal.

In principle, I have no problem with you or a qualified welder doing such a mod. It's just that anything that goes wrong is now on your head, not on the original builder. Pretty much the whole story on that. You modify it, & any problems are your problem.

I think most of the words to the wise on this topic is just that - think before you do it, as you will void manufaturer's liability is all.

Was at a farm auction once, was a little IHC A or B tractor (which one is off-centered?) & had a home made belly mower on it. The 2 old batchlor fellas made it with a vertical shaft & a blade - there was no sheilding at all. Even the auctioneer said, I just sell it, I'm not liable for using it!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

--->Paul

 

[LarryD]

<font color="blue"> Some of us are risk takers and just say change it and don't worry about it. Others are worriers and say don't change it no matter what. </font>

Shall we say "calculated risk" takers. I agree with you post completely but must take the other side frequently.

No one has mentioned bucket hooks on their tractors, yet how may have them? I have to wear a safety hat in my job and have stopped contractors from lifting heavy objects with them because these were add-ons. Working on federal installations, if it aint in the O&M manual, you can't do it. I have argued this point to no avail. Show me in the O&M where it details how to air up my tire. It tells me how much air but not how to do it, do I need to call a service truck to accomplish this? My government counterparts are not impressed.

I have a factory folding ROP's AND BUCKET HOOKS /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. Sometimes I use the tractor with the ROP's down and lift implements with the bucket at the same time /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. But I'm constantly evaluating my environment, and will adjust if I feel the least bit concerned.

 

[scott_vt]

Your Post
I'd suggest that the sleeve method would be safest way to create a substiture for a foldable ROPS providing the insert is long enough and a snug fit and surely superior to any hinge.

My Post
My thought would be to cut a single pc ROPS at the same spot on both sides, and fit a piece of square stock inside the lower half of the ROPS and weld in place. To use the top half of the ROPS, simply slide the top half over the square bar stock and use snap pins to hold it in position. This would be stronger than a hinged assembly. If you were out in the field and wanted to operate the tractor with just the lower half, slide the top half off and use the snap pins to attach it to the lower half. I think it would be quite doable.

I guess we think alike /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

scotty

 

[kenmac]

This subject has been hashed out time & time again. To modify ROPS or not. I side with sound guy & the others against this pratice but, it's yours do what you want, it's your life . If you decide to modify the ROPS , & something happens , it's all on you.

 

[tlbuser]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( OK, I understand the concerns about modifying a ROPS as far as safety and protection of the operator goes, if the ROPS is called upon to do its duty.

BUT...

Say one would cut his ROPS and have a certified welder duplicate what the OEM does when it makes a ROPS foldable, eg, make the hinge assembly identical, then what's the fuss all about?

What triggered this post is a recent comment by RonX (my X, I forget what the letter should be)(maybe even RonXX). Why fear modifying a ROPS in a way that duplicates what the OEM does anyway?

I would do it. No doubt in my mind. Welding is not rocket science if the welder is capable. Certification = capable, for the most part.

Am I in the minority here? I know about the ROPS police and all that...but...really...

Common sense tells me that exact duplication of what the factory does should not be an issue...

Am I alone here? )</font>

Nice to see you back even with a touch of cabin fever /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Now, how about "drilling the rops". Was that discussion ever finished? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[theonlybull]

one other option, if you are going to copy a folding rops for your tractor, maybe you can buy one to fit it?