Tractor Sizing Why are Kioti CK's so **** heavy?

[DroppedAxle]

Looking to buy a used CK25/27 (and maybe CK20). In researching I once again compared to Kubota B2320, B2620, B7800 since these seem to come up used much more in my area. Am I reading it right that those CKs are almost 2X the weight of the seemingly comparable Kubotas?

I understand that additional weight can be a plus and might indicate a higher quality build (I think so), however it can also be a disadvantage since engine sizes will need to be larger (?), towing requires more truck, and so on.

Though I don't intend to use this in the yard much, I will inevitably need to drive it there from time to time. My new worry is that a 3800 lb (or so) Kioti is going to tear up the ground just by being so heavy.

Am I right to worry about this? And why does Kioti build machines that are so much heavier than their direct competition?

Thanks.

DA

 

[wolftree]

DroppedAxle,

Most of the B series Kubotas have an aluminum transmission/differential housing. I am sure other brands have some tractors that are aluminum as well. Kioti is using cast iron housings and there is where most of the weight is. It is for you to determine if the cast iron weight is a positive or a negative for your application. Wider tires can offset most weight for yard use.

If in doubt as you compare tractors, carry a small magnet with you to attach to the housings.

 

[tractchores]

There are good and bad things about the extra weight. I did some comparison when I bought my tractor. More weight can be great for ground engaging tasks like FEL or BH work as it can translate into more traction and the tractor is less likely to be 'thrown around'.

On the flip side heavy can have some issues as well. If you do any work over a septic field then you want lighter weight, work on a lawn or landscaped surface, in wet or muddy areas etc all benefit from lighter weight. Also if you do any work on finished, but non-vehicle friendly surfaces like a walkway or a pool deck less weight is better. I do a lot of woods work and even with the relatively light kubota I notice major compaction (tire tracks that remain for 1 year +) in the forest if I leave the backhoe on, without it the impact is much more minimal (it's about a 1400 lb swing).

I'd say that you'll want to take a look at your typical jobs and think if weight will help or hurt. My thought in the lighter tractor was that I can always add more weight if I want to, but can't subtract it. Something like a BH can double the weight of the machine, so it's possible to add significant weight if desired. I don't personally think that weight in this application has a direct relationship to quality as none of the brands you're looking at have a poor quality reputation and some of the brands with the best reputation are the lighter ones.

 

[TripleR]

Just a different approach, the CK has some features the Bxx20 Series doesn't that I really like. Depending on the type of soil, the added weight may or may not be a problem. We routinely drive our L570 through our yard and on occasion have driven our M8540 on it with no to minimal impact.

 

[k0ua]

Looking to buy a used CK25/27 (and maybe CK20). In researching I once again compared to Kubota B2320, B2620, B7800 since these seem to come up used much more in my area. Am I reading it right that those CKs are almost 2X the weight of the seemingly comparable Kubotas?

I understand that additional weight can be a plus and might indicate a higher quality build (I think so), however it can also be a disadvantage since engine sizes will need to be larger (?), towing requires more truck, and so on.

Though I don't intend to use this in the yard much, I will inevitably need to drive it there from time to time. My new worry is that a 3800 lb (or so) Kioti is going to tear up the ground just by being so heavy.

Am I right to worry about this? And why does Kioti build machines that are so much heavier than their direct competition?

Thanks.

DA

I drive my Kioti DK35se with loader, loaded tires, and approximately 800 lbs ballast weight across the lawn all the time without damage, and I am north of 6600 lbs with that. Not a problem. Tractors are all about traction, Weight improves traction. Unless you are looking for a mowing machine, a tractor that weighs more will push, and pull more and handle weight picked up by the loader safer than a lighter tractor. Kubota philosophy is that you can add weight to a tractor to do these things better. 3pt weight, weighted wheels, loaded tires. They make many of their smaller tractors lighter because people like to use them for mowing machines as their primary task, and advise people to weigh them down for loader work. Only problem is that some people do not read their manuals advising this or take it as a "suggestion" instead of a fact. Some of the other companies put more weight into the chassis and axles to begin with. Notably, LS Kioti, and Mahindra. I am not sure what models you are comparing side by side, but I am doubting the "twice as much" weight differential. But the Kioti will be significantly more than the same sized Kubota. As an example my last tractor a Kubota L3400hst was about the same size as my current Kioti DK35se, and the Kioti outweighs the Kubota by 1066 lbs. Just different ways of doing things, but I sure would not worry about a CK series on your lawn with R4 tires unless it was wet.

James K0UA

 

[sweettractors]

FWIW, Some manufacturers have been known to make thicker/heavier castings to coverup poor castings. Ken Sweet

 

[VictorW]

I like the weight for what I do because it gives me the added traction. My R4 tires will only rutt the yard after an all day rain. A neighbor has another brand that is lighter but similar hp. We were doing a job where he couldn't pull what mine could because of traction. For me, the hp matches the traction due to weight. So as mentioned, figure out what your primary jobs will be and whether weight would help or hurt.
As far as why they are built heavy, that could open a big discussion as sweettractors possibly started. I'll stay out of this one other than to say my tractor works fine and does what I want.

 

[DK35vince]

I've been mowing my lawn with a DK 35 with loaded rear tires for years.
It doesn't hurt my lawn.

 

[murphy1244]

Compare the Axles.

 

[Coyote machine]

FWIW, Some manufacturers have been known to make thicker/heavier castings to coverup poor castings. Ken Sweet

Something Deere does?!

 

[IslandTractor]

FWIW, Some manufacturers have been known to make thicker/heavier castings to coverup poor castings. Ken Sweet

And, Kubota dealers have been posting crap like that for years. Korean steel making is every bit as good as the Japanese for items like engine and transmission castings. Compare a Hyundai to a Toyota. No significant difference these days.

Kubota makes a lighter tractor because their main market is lawn cutting. Kioti and Mahindra just make small versions of traditionally built utility tractors. No difference in quality.

 

[murphy1244]

And, Kubota dealers have been posting crap like that for years. Korean steel making is every bit as good as the Japanese for items like engine and transmission castings. Compare a Hyundai to a Toyota. No significant difference these days.

Kubota makes a lighter tractor because their main market is lawn cutting. Kioti and Mahindra just make small versions of traditionally built utility tractors. No difference in quality.

One is a Tractor and one is a Lawn Mower. Easy Peassey

 

[TripleR]

Well I can see the downward spiral of this thread, Kioti a real tractor and Kubota a lawn mower; seems to always be the case.

 

[murphy1244]

Well I can see the downward spiral of this thread, Kioti a real tractor and Kubota a lawn mower; seems to always be the case.

Just kidding, Keep your suspenders on.

 

[IslandTractor]

Well I can see the downward spiral of this thread, Kioti a real tractor and Kubota a lawn mower; seems to always be the case.

Nah, if I was taking care of an estate or golf course the Kubota has clear advantages. If you are doing ground engaging work or loader work where weight and heavier axles are an advantage then the Kioti has clear advantages. That doesn't mean either cannot do either task just that each is best at only one.

 

[Gittyup]

One of the distinct differences on Kiotis (from say deere or Kubota) is the axles. Kiotis are markedly larger. This lets them spec higher capacity loaders. I get free horse manure from a neighbor that has a Kubota 4420. Real nice running tractor. But, the light axle continues to plague him. He has to rebuild it every year. He uses it mostly for loader work and has huge mounds of manure he moves with an oversize muck bucket. It has R1's which look to me to put more pressure on the axle too.

I bought a Kioti in part because of its weight. For ground engagement, there is not substitute. If mowing were part of the equation, I probably would have gone Kubota or deere. I have a CK25 with loaded R4s. With backhoe it's about 6200 lbs, without about 5100 lbs. I take it on my yard all the time, but only when dry. Continued travel over the same path can lead to compaction because it is a heavy beast. But, if loader, grading, backhoe work are the primary uses, I wouldn't have it any other way. Loaded tires are a must; it lets you do loader work without a rear implement, thereby giving you a smaller more maneuverable platform and keeps you planted when backhoeing. I still use a rear implement at times, just for the added safety when working on uneven ground.

 

[art]

To look at tractors from small to large much has been done in changes from the way they were built fifty years ago compared to today. When a dealer sets up a tractor to recommend to a customer they should look at what they will do with it first. Many of the uses that an owner will have for a tractor do not require a great amount of weight but they do need horsepower. Weight has long been known to cause ground compaction which hinders growth of roots and plant life and continued excess compaction will kill the plants. It also takes extra fuel to move weight that isn't always being used.
Some will talk of the merits of cast aluminum vs cast steel and there are variations of both and they both have there strong points. There are other things that come into play with tractor design with the different metals, cast steel is normally used as a structural piece where with aluminum there is normally a fabricated steel frame which is far stronger as it is more dense then the cast steel although the newer design nodular cast iron is a more dense form of cast iron. For the most part the older designs of tractors still use the cast iron housing of years ago as a way of economically building machines.
Many of the farm tractors of newer design from the last twenty years are using aluminum and the steel frames as a superior way of getting the weight to where it is needed for performance as well as for strength. When tractors are put out for hours a day and you can watch the fuel gauge doing the same job they find that lighter is better on the pocket book. Farmers have found great savings in having tractors set up to do a job vs trying one set-up for all.
To use a tractor with a primary purpose of loader work many farmers go to machines that are built for the daily rigors of that type of work. Kubota does offer factory built TLB units that have high output hydraulics compared to normal compacts and also have additional weight built into the frames as well as larger cylinders that need the larger flow from the bigger pumps so work can be done with out delay of waiting for the tractor attachments to get into position to be further activated.
Kubota's aren't built carrying extra weight and are built for overall performance which means capacity as well speed and durability. That is why many contractors don't look at many of the other makes as much as they might get by with a different make, time is money to them and they normally buy machines that are made for the job.
For many the kioti type designs are sufficient for the owners to get the tasks at hand done within the time and costs of ownership vs the newer designs of tractors.
This purchase is about you and what you need and how you want to get your work done and any brand can get your job done. How you want to get it done and how much you want to spend is what it is all about. Otherwise you'd be asking about used tractors!

 

[Coyote machine]

To look at tractors from small to large much has been done in changes from the way they were built fifty years ago compared to today. When a dealer sets up a tractor to recommend to a customer they should look at what they will do with it first. Many of the uses that an owner will have for a tractor do not require a great amount of weight but they do need horsepower. Weight has long been known to cause ground compaction which hinders growth of roots and plant life and continued excess compaction will kill the plants. It also takes extra fuel to move weight that isn't always being used.


Some will talk of the merits of cast aluminum vs cast steel and there are variations of both and they both have there strong points. There are other things that come into play with tractor design with the different metals, cast steel is normally used as a structural piece where with aluminum there is normally a fabricated steel frame which is far stronger as it is more dense then the cast steel although the newer design nodular cast iron is a more dense form of cast iron. For the most part the older designs of tractors still use the cast iron housing of years ago as a way of economically building machines.
Many of the farm tractors of newer design from the last twenty years are using aluminum and the steel frames as a superior way of getting the weight to where it is needed for performance as well as for strength. When tractors are put out for hours a day and you can watch the fuel gauge doing the same job they find that lighter is better on the pocket book. Farmers have found great savings in having tractors set up to do a job vs trying one set-up for all.
To use a tractor with a primary purpose of loader work many farmers go to machines that are built for the daily rigors of that type of work. Kubota does offer factory built TLB units that have high output hydraulics compared to normal compacts and also have additional weight built into the frames as well as larger cylinders that need the larger flow from the bigger pumps so work can be done with out delay of waiting for the tractor attachments to get into position to be further activated.
Kubota's aren't built carrying extra weight and are built for overall performance which means capacity as well speed and durability. That is why many contractors don't look at many of the other makes as much as they might get by with a different make, time is money to them and they normally buy machines that are made for the job.
For many the kioti type designs are sufficient for the owners to get the tasks at hand done within the time and costs of ownership vs the newer designs of tractors.
This purchase is about you and what you need and how you want to get your work done and any brand can get your job done. How you want to get it done and how much you want to spend is what it is all about. Otherwise you'd be asking about used tractors!

The whole Kubotas are built for speed and performance, and don't carry extra weight, vs. Kioti or others, in my estimation is a crock. Different strokes, different folks. One needs to add 1000# of ballast to most tractors to enable them to do effective FEL work. Ground compaction is a factor if one is doing crops but the wheel spacing takes care of that mostly. Bota makes TLBs of the commercial type because they are in that market. It is a different market, for a different buyer/user than utility tractors/scuts. 50 years ago and even 20 years ago is largely irrelevant to what is happening today with tractors.
Fuel delivery and processing, (Tier 4 compliance) is what is cutting edge today, and those who can't/don't comply will be gone.

 

[mguitas]

To look at tractors from small to large much has been done in changes from the way they were built fifty years ago compared to today. When a dealer sets up a tractor to recommend to a customer they should look at what they will do with it first. Many of the uses that an owner will have for a tractor do not require a great amount of weight but they do need horsepower. Weight has long been known to cause ground compaction which hinders growth of roots and plant life and continued excess compaction will kill the plants. It also takes extra fuel to move weight that isn't always being used.
Some will talk of the merits of cast aluminum vs cast steel and there are variations of both and they both have there strong points. There are other things that come into play with tractor design with the different metals, cast steel is normally used as a structural piece where with aluminum there is normally a fabricated steel frame which is far stronger as it is more dense then the cast steel although the newer design nodular cast iron is a more dense form of cast iron. For the most part the older designs of tractors still use the cast iron housing of years ago as a way of economically building machines.
Many of the farm tractors of newer design from the last twenty years are using aluminum and the steel frames as a superior way of getting the weight to where it is needed for performance as well as for strength. When tractors are put out for hours a day and you can watch the fuel gauge doing the same job they find that lighter is better on the pocket book. Farmers have found great savings in having tractors set up to do a job vs trying one set-up for all.
To use a tractor with a primary purpose of loader work many farmers go to machines that are built for the daily rigors of that type of work. Kubota does offer factory built TLB units that have high output hydraulics compared to normal compacts and also have additional weight built into the frames as well as larger cylinders that need the larger flow from the bigger pumps so work can be done with out delay of waiting for the tractor attachments to get into position to be further activated.
Kubota's aren't built carrying extra weight and are built for overall performance which means capacity as well speed and durability. That is why many contractors don't look at many of the other makes as much as they might get by with a different make, time is money to them and they normally buy machines that are made for the job.
For many the kioti type designs are sufficient for the owners to get the tasks at hand done within the time and costs of ownership vs the newer designs of tractors.
This purchase is about you and what you need and how you want to get your work done and any brand can get your job done. How you want to get it done and how much you want to spend is what it is all about. Otherwise you'd be asking about used tractors!

That was well said.

 

[IslandTractor]

That was well said.

I agree. I don't always agree with Art but I think that was a fair summary.

What he didn't directly address was the simple conclusion that among CUTs, the light weight machines (Kubota, JD) are going to generally be better at mowing finished lawns because of their lighter weight. The corollary however is that they 1) are more dependent on adding ballast for FEL and ground engaging operation and 2) light weight axles limit the size of the loaders for a given weight class tractor. The heavier CUT tractors generally have "stronger" loaders at any given horsepower range. Only an issue if one major use of the tractor will be pushing the limit with the loader as for example in land clearing. Otherwise not a big deal.