Backhoe Who regrets their Backhoe Decision?

DAP · Jun 15, 2004

People are not seeing the forest through the trees.

Lately, and probably due to the time of year, there seem to be a lot of 1st time tractor owners asking legitimate questions about tractors, pricing, implements, owning and operating.

If category #3 people start giving advice to newbies in general, you're could vey well have a lot of disilliussioned new tractor owners on TBN. It's easy to make assumptions about individuals here on line.

All of this assumes one of the main goals of TBN is not only to disseminate information, but to disseminate GOOD information.

I was waiting for Bob to post to this thread cause I knew in advance his viewpoint. I belive he is right on the money even though I have a desire for a BH.

Even for peeps with lots of stumps, rocks and drainage requirements, NEED becomes a fuzzy word.

Life will go on with that stump right where it is. Same for that rock over there. In most cases. Having a way to get rid of it yourself, easily, sure is a nice to have. But they aint usually show stoppers.

If a stump, a needed ditch or a rock presents a tough problem, then owning a BH is only one option. Renting one is another. Service swapping yet another. Etcetera.

We can't assume everyone possesses the same skills, desires or economic reach.

Its easy to image a new tractor owner asking themself whether or not they NEED or SHOULD GET something like a BH. Its an obvious question everyone considers usually.

I know an individual who actually fells trees just so he can use his hoe to play at the rootball. Interesting hobby. He goes out and 'creates the need' to justify the money spent. It's his money, but it's not an example of sensibility usually. Especially if one is confused about this issue as it pertains to their first venture into ownership and usage.

The backhoe is an industrial idiomatic invention - an descendent of the steam shovel. The homeowner/farmer can become 'industrious' with one even though he is not in an industrial setting. Whether its sensible or not is another matter entirely - driven mainly by the largish cost for one as an attachment to a tractor.

Most of us are not contractors whe depend on a machine like a hoe for sustenance. If the price fo a hoe rivaled say the cost of a loader or an adequate tiller, then the dynamics of the question change yet again.

Hat's off to ya Bob for the straight poop. The uninformed will get better informed faster with your contribution.

shade2u2 · Jun 15, 2004

Bob, OkieDon, OkieG, & now DAP,
Points very well put... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bob_Skurka · Jun 15, 2004

(
BTW, the more I read of this thread, the more I am convinced that I had it right in my earlier post; it's a purely individual value judgment - anyone who is uncomfortablel spending the $ on a backhoe, shouldn't and should rent instead and accept the inconveniences that that entails. )

Well let me chime in one more time. I don't have money flowing out of my ears, but I only buy what I can afford to pay for so I don't finance my tractors, cars, or toys, I pay for them. And I paid for my BH. I just found it to be incapable of doing efficiently the real work that needed to be done. Sure, it would have dug the 40' by 4' by 5' trench in the side of the hill that I dug this weekend with the trackhoe. But while it took me 5 or 6 hours to dig that, and another smaller trench, it would have taken me MUCH longer to dig it with the TLB with its bucket being LESS THAN 1/2 the capacity (14" versus 24" wide, and not as deep), and its reach being only 55% of the reach (7' versus 12'). And with the lesser reach, I would have parked the tractor ON TOP of my wife's prized daylilly border instead of being able to dig right over the top of it leaving most of it in perfect condition. And the 5 or 6 hours I spent would have probably been translated into 20 hours plus of digging, plus I would have had to recreate that daylilly bed again too.

So I think it is really a "right tool for the right job" sort of thing. I just think that most small backhoes are simply not the right tool for the jobs I tend to need to get done. And I think many BH users probably find they can get their jobs done, just as I could have done, but I value my time more than I value my BH. So for me, I'd rather spend money to save me time, than spend money to have a toy that is inadequate for my tasks. That said, it justifies why I spend nearly $10,000 on a glorified lawn mower a couple months ago, it saves me well over an hour a week in mowing! That is a good tool!!! I added the FEL to my TC24 despite having an FEL on the B2910 because sometimes a smaller unit is a faster unit. I added the slip scoop to the Ventrac becuase while its capacity is much less than a garden cart or than either FEL, it will take a load of landscape blocks onto places on my property that no other tractor can get into. So I like my tools, IF THEY WILL DO WHAT I NEED DONE. I just won't buy another BH now that I realize what they WON'T do and how SLOW they are at getting medium & large projects done.

polecat · Jun 15, 2004

my only regret is not having one ..i've been told that my cut will handle a 9' 3ph mounted bhoe..i know that will pu a lot of strain on the 3ph but i have somany stumps and rocks thaat it is unbelievable..2 yrs ago a buddy of mine had one of those jobs that goes on the ball of a truck and thats allit is ...a hoe ..i could not beloieve the speed in whiich i dug the base for our front porchand the size of the rocks that it would lift!!!i couldnt even put my arms round some of them!!!i know that a 9' er on my cut would way out perform that little 10 hp job..even a little terraa mite i rented 2 yrs ag o was awesome but the thing had no powerena d no 4 wd!! i am most definitely that hoe up here in rock heaven would b worth its weight in gold!!!!
TODD up here in liddl ol rock he!!

uhmgawa · Jun 15, 2004

( The convenience of having the backhoe available for use when I want it is worth something to me...a lot actually.)

Aside from the more routine uses for a BH I've found it
invaluable for extracting the tractor on more occasions
than I'd care to remember. Once you have dug the rear
wheels in deep enough to be creating a differential imprint
in mud that BH gets really handy.

JDGREEN4ME · Jun 15, 2004

Speaking for myself and my situation the backhoe was one of the best investments I have made... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

DUMBDOG · Jun 15, 2004

After reading all of the posts on this site, the reality of a backhoe on a CUT did not appeal to me. Thought about building one, even picked up the plans from Cadplans for one. After having a extemely lucky streak in the market last year I purchased a used JD510D, yes it is overkill for most of my uses, in fact it scares the **** out of me when I operate it.

We are in the process of putting in over 2500 feet of 3 inch irrigation pipe, I have a friend that operates equipment for a living and after watching him last night lay down a trench for some of the pipe, it is a true art form. Realized that some of the ways that I was digging, there is a lot better way of doing them.

Do not use the machine a lot, however there are still a lot of stumps to dig, a lot of dirt to move, so who knows, when most of this is done if I will keep it or not. However it will outwork the CUT with the loader by many times.

So I do not regret the decision to buy it as it has many uses and is the right tool for the job some of the time and when not is stays parked.

OkieG · Jun 15, 2004

If category #3 people start giving advice to newbies in general, you're could vey well have a lot of disilliussioned new tractor owners on TBN....All of this assumes one of the main goals of TBN is not only to disseminate information, but to disseminate GOOD information.

Speaking as a person of the 3rd kind, you almost hurt my feelings by your comment. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif What, I don't give good information?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif But, hey, I'm over it now.

I am thrilled to give tractor advice to any TBNer in those limited areas where I feel qualified. I don't feel like level-headed Bob Skurka's advice is necessarily any better on a tractor topic just because of our differing thoughts on backhoe ownership (I don't mean it Bob, /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif- /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif, really.)
And certainly, we all realize that admitting our personal bias is not the same as an endorsement for others to follow. I'm not advising anyone to buy a BH for the reasons I did, which, by the way, were not completely frivolous. To a new tractor shopper, I recommend starting out as a People 1-2 person. Buy it if you need it. Don't buy if you don't. But whatever you do, don't buy the implement first, then the tractor. Oops, where am I? For a moment there I was in philosophical crisis. Oh yes, and distinguish need from want. Let your People 3ness blossom in it's own time, when you can relax your definition of need if you choose to, and know you'll enjoy it. It's not fair to discount advice from us Type 3s just because of our personal choices. Or, on the other hand, maybe you're right.

OkieG

rockyridgefarm · Jun 15, 2004

Having the hoe sure comes in handy for tire service, nice to be able to lift all four wheels off the ground if you want to rotate the fronts to the rear... Wait that's on my Jeep... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Seriously it makes a handy tractor lift....

Henro · Jun 15, 2004

DAP,

We could apply your logic to the need to have a tractor or even a lawn mower or anything that interferes with the natural course of nature.

Why not just let nature take over? Who needs a tractor anyway? Or a lawn mower? If grass was supposed to be there it would be there on its own, right? And if it was supposed to max out at 3.5 inches it would do that on its own...

Bob Skurka is right on the money because he is talking about his own needs/wants/desires.

Personally I have concluded that I don't really need a tractor/back hoe/loader/brush hog/mower/rake/dirt scoop/boom pole/sub soiler/box blade...

Everyting is dependant on how I want to mold nature to suit myself...

 If category #3 people start giving advice to newbies in general, you're could vey well have a lot of disilliussioned new tractor owners on TBN. It's easy to make assumptions about individuals here on line. 

No argument here. I would suggest we all think about whatever assumption we may make though. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif We might also hope that new tractor owners have minds of their own as well, and that they are able to digest info and make personal decisions that suit their own personal needs the best.

The backhoe does cost more than the loader, but it is still cheaper than the tractor. And all the tractor does is provide power to work the implements...and carry them to the work location...

It just all depends on one's percieved needs and financial situtation I think. Whatever is good for one is not necessarily good for the next...

To20Chris · Jun 15, 2004

I NEED food, air, water, shelter, clothes, some heat in the winter, a source if income. All the rest is a matter of choice, a decision we make about what is valuable to us. We each make different choices. I drive a little, inexpensive car, and a $200 old S10 with 200kmi. I'm fine with that - my TLB combination cost almost twice what my car did, because I value it, and what it can do, much more than I would fancy wheels. I'll never have a $7000 plasma TV, cause I don't watch it, but a BH, sure. The point is that you could never define a BH as a NEED, just as you could never define any of the FEL, or even the tractors that most of us have as a need, unless perhaps you use it as an essential part of your business. So do you need a BH? Only if you think you do. I'd ceratinly recommend that people find out what a BH will do for you before they buy one, but that is no different than with any other major purchace.

polecat · Jun 15, 2004

DO U WANNA SELLIT?????? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gifSERIOUSLY???

gray · Jun 16, 2004

Here goes?

I love my backhoe. It is not like many of the BH on most tractors. It has a nice reach-11.2' and I can move my tractor without getting out of the BH seat position. Without these two benifits, I would find using it valuble but troublesome.

I do understand those who do not like the constant shift from BH seat to tractor seat. I did that for a while then got a new tractor.

Kubota has a real good deal going when they have an L21, L35 and L48 ( my unit) with the seat in such a way an operator could move the machine without moving from seat to seat. Also, when you do have a stump to pull, you have to do it. Without the BH? It would be a long and difficult day.

Small and hard to work BH are not without value if you need a BH but they are limmiting and could cause some to turn against a BH on a tractor.

Best reguards to all and hope you resolve the great BH question.

EdK · Jun 17, 2004

First off I’d like to start with affirming what’s been said in that we all are in widely varying environments as well as financially diverse situations – so there is not 1 correct tractor/backhoe strategy. That being said I’d have to align myself with Bob’s assessment. Here’s how I arrive at that conclusion:

Before buying my tractor I had some experience with both a JD 30hp compact & hoe as well as a bigger Case 580. This gave me an appreciation for what I could reasonably expect to accomplish. I have a larger lot so as I tractor shopped I observed bigger doesn’t cost all that much more (e.g. 30-40hp to 50-70 about $5K or 20%) so I justified the move from compact to utility and am satisfied with the decision. Of course implements cost more which is OK however hoes cost a lot more. So here’s the bottom line: I simply could not justify an additional $10K for a hoe that would admittedly come in very convenient at times but still leave me occasionally renting equipment for the bigger jobs!

Case in point: I sized my tractor for about 95% of what I’ll need to accomplish. Yes this cost me more than a compact however where would I be if I sized to 75%? Why I’d find myself spending an awful lot of dough in rentals. On the other hand If I sized my machine to 99-100% of my needs it would have proven prohibitively expensive. Just last weekend I rented the machine pictured in the attachment to move a few rocks that were above the capacity of my loader. The machine is worth about $110-$120K and I was able to get 15hours on the clock performing some pretty serious work for $412.50 –including burning 50 gallons of diesel. I am very satisfied with the cost/benefit experience.

I figure the hoe would be seriously handicapped due to the extremely bony nature of my land. An 30-ton excavator fished about a 8-10 rocks of that approximate size out of my cellar hole last year and even broke a bucket in the process. Given the local soil conditions and the other primary use for the hoe being to dig good sized stumps I’m sure the hoe would not match the tractors approx 95% capability factor – it would have to be significantly lower. In conclusion I’m saying I see a few industrial TLB or excavator rentals in my future and you’ve got to make you own educated decision.

pekabu · Jun 17, 2004

NH boney? You've got to be kidding? /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I just moved a big rock. Well, I can't lift it with my loader but I can roll it by curling the bucket, and I was able to dig it out and move it with the BH. I took some pictures so hopefully I can post them in a couple of days.

Bob_Skurka · Jun 17, 2004

( DO U WANNA SELLIT?????? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gifSERIOUSLY??? )

I co-own it with my neighbor. I think he used it twice? But he wants to keep it. I think it is a cool toy for him? I wouldn't mind selling him my share!!!

I don't even know why he has a tractor except for in the winter to clear his snow at his shop, he keeps his tractor at the house all summer, near as I can tell he doesn't use it, then each fall he takes it to his shop to clear the snow. Each spring it makes the trip back home. I think I put more seat time on a tractor each month than he does in a year!

Henro · Jun 17, 2004

I was able to get 15hours on the clock performing some pretty serious work for $412.50 –including burning 50 gallons of diesel. I am very satisfied with the cost/benefit experience.


I think I heard you say "it all depends..." and with that I agree totally.

However...my backhoe cost about $6,000 and at $ 300 per day that equates to only twenty days rental. Around here a day may only be 8 clock ours... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif. Certainly my tractor can't do what that machine you pictured can...but my backhoe may be there to help me for the rest of my life for all I know.

But that just gets back to what you said...for each of us, it all depends... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

EdK · Jun 18, 2004

I hope I wasn't so long winded as to not get my point across:

"If the 10K hoe would meet 95% of my needs I would buy it"

But for me - and here's the "it depends" part - I'm pretty sure it wouldn't even come close. But for others it probably does so buying is the right decision.

BTW the $412.50 for the loader is the 2-day weekend rate. I have a pretty fair rental company nearby but they would not agree to a 15 hour day /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DAP · Jun 22, 2004

To those who read my rant, let me try and clarify. Sorry for being pedantic.

It's easy to forget that some of us once knew absolutely nothing about tractors except that we wanted or needed one.

When one of those types of peeps comes to TBN asking questions, here' what usually happens.

1. EVERYONE has an opinion and a lot of folks 'share' same.
2. NOT EVERYONE can be objective and practical in their recommendations but share that in the form of their opinion.

For potential new machine owners seeking practical information, #2 above can be irksome, confusing and often avoids answering the initial question altogether. This is exactly how lame brand wars, and other frequent disparities arise here in tractorland. MY OPINION says this detracts from the overall quality of the site (even though its amusing for a while).

Henro buddy ... if you found the wherewithall to pick up an L3430 or an L48 and keep the rest of your units, that's great - enviable even (at least I would be envious). There'd be no living with you! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

For someone who INITIALLY has little experience, wants to know what he needs to get the job done in a reasonable time for reasonable dollars, who may not even know what questions to ask let alone evaluate the littany of answers, well ...

Machines were explored and invented to save us time and to a lesser degree, money - where time is money. Most of us here, you and myself included, do not fall into the latter category.

OkieG · Jun 22, 2004

To those who read my rant 

DAP,
No apologies or clarification required, as far as I am concerned. For the most part, I agree with the basics of what you said. I just didn't like being included in the group of insensitive, misleading, lousy, wothless bums you described, (who turn eager, fresh-faced young tractor novices into dour, disillusioned old sourpusses),... even if that's where I deserve to be.

OkieG