burnercan
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- Sweden until April 30th,2005.
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- Really looking hard at Kioti
May not need one. Thinking of ideas how I can use one. But I WANT ONE. So I will buy one. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Backhoe Who regrets their Backhoe Decision?
- Thread starter Henro
- Start date
- Views: 12182
robertm
Veteran Member
Hey, Henro, I was thinking yesterday that I regret getting a backhoe. Oops, I mean the backhoe literature. Now, it reminds me everytime im on the "s*itter" that I could have bought a BX for a little more than what I spent on my B7510. I am sure I could have found a billion uses for the BH, now that I passed one up. Just didn't like the skimpy loader capacities of the LA211 on th BX. But hey, there is always a new hoe to fit a B7510 at the nearby dealer, right?
rswyan
Super Star Member
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- Northeast Ohio
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- Kubota B2910, Cub Cadet Pro Z 154S, Simplicity 18 CFC, Cub Cadet 782
Yes, I regret my backhoe decision ..... to not get it when we bought the tractor (less than a month ago) - something I'm trying to rectify right now.
At the time, I agonized over the additional cost and the fact that (most) new 'hoes were relatively pricey, with the Prairie Dog being the exception at around $4K for the 7 1/2 footer. That (Prairie Dog) or a used unit was the route I was going to go but I've reconsidered the matter over the last week or so and have pretty much decided to go with the Kubota BL4690B, an apparently revised version of the BL4690A (dunno what the exact differences are yet) that is supposed to be available in about two weeks.
The primary factors that led me to go the extra bucks was potential warranty issues - using the Kubota hoe should eliminate those, and the fact that it is compatible with the mid-mount mower helped make the decision a little easier ...... not that I'd want to do alot of 'hoe work with the MMM attached, but not having to remove the MMM for a quick little job definitely has some appeal.
I will have the backhoe shipped directly to me, and I will do the assembly and install myself, getting me a little better price from the dealer and saving some $$$.
At the time, I agonized over the additional cost and the fact that (most) new 'hoes were relatively pricey, with the Prairie Dog being the exception at around $4K for the 7 1/2 footer. That (Prairie Dog) or a used unit was the route I was going to go but I've reconsidered the matter over the last week or so and have pretty much decided to go with the Kubota BL4690B, an apparently revised version of the BL4690A (dunno what the exact differences are yet) that is supposed to be available in about two weeks.
The primary factors that led me to go the extra bucks was potential warranty issues - using the Kubota hoe should eliminate those, and the fact that it is compatible with the mid-mount mower helped make the decision a little easier ...... not that I'd want to do alot of 'hoe work with the MMM attached, but not having to remove the MMM for a quick little job definitely has some appeal.
I will have the backhoe shipped directly to me, and I will do the assembly and install myself, getting me a little better price from the dealer and saving some $$$.
Libertine
Gold Member
OkeeDon:
<font color="blue">There is no easy way to move the tractor with the hoe bucket. Every time you want to reposition, which would be often with a trench, you have to climb out of one seat and into the other, raise the stabilizers, release the brake and put it in gear, guess at how far to move it, set the brake and put it in neutral, climb off the tractor and back onto the backhoe seat, lower the stabilizers, and dig again for a short time before you have to repeat it all. </font>
Not true. I move mine easily (short distances) from the BH seat. Raise the stabilizers a bit, use the bucket to shift the machine forward/backwards/side to side.
JEH
<font color="blue">There is no easy way to move the tractor with the hoe bucket. Every time you want to reposition, which would be often with a trench, you have to climb out of one seat and into the other, raise the stabilizers, release the brake and put it in gear, guess at how far to move it, set the brake and put it in neutral, climb off the tractor and back onto the backhoe seat, lower the stabilizers, and dig again for a short time before you have to repeat it all. </font>
Not true. I move mine easily (short distances) from the BH seat. Raise the stabilizers a bit, use the bucket to shift the machine forward/backwards/side to side.
JEH
Libertine
Gold Member
Woodbeef:
<font color="blue"> When ever I need holes dug,I just call the local tlb owner. He does them no muss no fuss. At $45 an hour it will be years before I get up to the value of a tlb. </font>
Agreed, IF you've got someone readily available, nearby who will work more or less when needed. Lot's of us don't. Also, as mentioned by others, it's cheaper to rent when needed for specific jobs. The advantage to "owning your own" is you can do a few hours work here and there, or of an evening, when you wouldn't have rented. Example, yesterday I took out a small tree (dead). It was only about 45'-50', but without the BH would have had to dig a much bigger hole to get stump out (with FEL), or used the scoop (reversed) and it would taken much longer. Having the BH speeded up the trunk removal and so allowed me to get everything out, 1/3 cord of wood and most of the brush cleaned up in one day. Without it, I would still be looking at a mess this morning. The small cut area is ready for reseeding. Would never have spent the money to rent for just the one stump. What is the economic value of that? Umm. $20??
So far, I figure I've "earned back" perhaps $3k in rentals saved, paid work I might have passed on. So I've "earned" 1/2 the cost of the hoe. Not a bad return in 18 months (sure better than a money market). Overall, the tractor has earned back around $4k-$5k which is around half the $9k depreciation hit to date.
JEH
PS Havn't seen many posts from you recently. Still posting on antique tractors?
<font color="blue"> When ever I need holes dug,I just call the local tlb owner. He does them no muss no fuss. At $45 an hour it will be years before I get up to the value of a tlb. </font>
Agreed, IF you've got someone readily available, nearby who will work more or less when needed. Lot's of us don't. Also, as mentioned by others, it's cheaper to rent when needed for specific jobs. The advantage to "owning your own" is you can do a few hours work here and there, or of an evening, when you wouldn't have rented. Example, yesterday I took out a small tree (dead). It was only about 45'-50', but without the BH would have had to dig a much bigger hole to get stump out (with FEL), or used the scoop (reversed) and it would taken much longer. Having the BH speeded up the trunk removal and so allowed me to get everything out, 1/3 cord of wood and most of the brush cleaned up in one day. Without it, I would still be looking at a mess this morning. The small cut area is ready for reseeding. Would never have spent the money to rent for just the one stump. What is the economic value of that? Umm. $20??
So far, I figure I've "earned back" perhaps $3k in rentals saved, paid work I might have passed on. So I've "earned" 1/2 the cost of the hoe. Not a bad return in 18 months (sure better than a money market). Overall, the tractor has earned back around $4k-$5k which is around half the $9k depreciation hit to date.
JEH
PS Havn't seen many posts from you recently. Still posting on antique tractors?
uhmgawa
Gold Member
uhmgawa
Gold Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I move mine easily (short distances) from the BH seat. Raise the stabilizers a bit, use the bucket to shift the machine forward/backwards/side to side.)</font>
Actually I find this is another case where a hydrostatic transmission is a benefit.
It isn't too difficult to reach back to the pedal and tweak the business
forward/backward as needed.
Actually I find this is another case where a hydrostatic transmission is a benefit.
It isn't too difficult to reach back to the pedal and tweak the business
forward/backward as needed.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
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I will grant you all that a Backhoe can be very useful. I will also say that a higher % of TBN members have and use them than the typical tractor owners.
BUT:
I would never buy a backhoe again. The Great Bend backhoe on the B2910 works great, but is not worth the price. The Kubota bh was even more money. To be blunt, I think RENTING a backhoe is probably going to be the most VALUE for MOST people.
Backhoes are expensive and MOST people simply don't use them enough to justify their cost. I know that many here do have lots of uses, and for those people a backhoe may make economic sence. But for me, and my neighbor, who I co-own the unit with, the B.H. is an unused implement that was very expensive. I think it has been used less than any other implement by a long margin. The big track hoe I rented cost me $225, it was delived late this morning (Saturday) and will be picked up on Monday. It is much more capable than any backhoe on any tractor I have seen, and that alone makes RENTING the better answer in my mind.
Even if I rented the Track Hoe twice a year for 10 years it would be a better deal than buying even a small back hoe. The Track Hoe got a job done in about 5 hours that I am not sure my back hoe could actually do becuase of its lack of reach, however, IF the back hoe could do the job, I would say it would be much closer to a 20 hour job because the bucket is much smaller, the reach is much shorter, and the ability to move the machine at will (any direction, several feet/yards at a time) is simply not existent with a TLB type machine.
BUT:
I would never buy a backhoe again. The Great Bend backhoe on the B2910 works great, but is not worth the price. The Kubota bh was even more money. To be blunt, I think RENTING a backhoe is probably going to be the most VALUE for MOST people.
Backhoes are expensive and MOST people simply don't use them enough to justify their cost. I know that many here do have lots of uses, and for those people a backhoe may make economic sence. But for me, and my neighbor, who I co-own the unit with, the B.H. is an unused implement that was very expensive. I think it has been used less than any other implement by a long margin. The big track hoe I rented cost me $225, it was delived late this morning (Saturday) and will be picked up on Monday. It is much more capable than any backhoe on any tractor I have seen, and that alone makes RENTING the better answer in my mind.
Even if I rented the Track Hoe twice a year for 10 years it would be a better deal than buying even a small back hoe. The Track Hoe got a job done in about 5 hours that I am not sure my back hoe could actually do becuase of its lack of reach, however, IF the back hoe could do the job, I would say it would be much closer to a 20 hour job because the bucket is much smaller, the reach is much shorter, and the ability to move the machine at will (any direction, several feet/yards at a time) is simply not existent with a TLB type machine.
OP
Henro
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I think it all depends on one's needs. THe same could be said for a tractor I suppose. All depends on how much one is going to use whatever he purchases.
Around here a small JD 4200 with back hoe costs around 180 per day to rent, and then on top of that if you don't have a trailer you must rent that too. And you have to wait until the unit is available. Take your time to go get it and take it back...and so on...
In my case I use my backhoe a lot...WHEN I want to and that is important to me.
But like Bob says...now that I have a bx with MMM if I still had a RFM for the B2910 I might be saying the RFM was not a good use of my money...since I was not using it much.
The convenience of having the backhoe available for use when I want it is worth something to me...a lot actually.
But each person's needs are different...I would buy a backhoe again...as a matter of fact one reason I like the Kubota L3130 so much is the BH90 backhoe that can be added to it... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Around here a small JD 4200 with back hoe costs around 180 per day to rent, and then on top of that if you don't have a trailer you must rent that too. And you have to wait until the unit is available. Take your time to go get it and take it back...and so on...
In my case I use my backhoe a lot...WHEN I want to and that is important to me.
But like Bob says...now that I have a bx with MMM if I still had a RFM for the B2910 I might be saying the RFM was not a good use of my money...since I was not using it much.
The convenience of having the backhoe available for use when I want it is worth something to me...a lot actually.
But each person's needs are different...I would buy a backhoe again...as a matter of fact one reason I like the Kubota L3130 so much is the BH90 backhoe that can be added to it... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Bob_Skurka
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I understand that many people love their backhoes but for me it is just not worth it. I've been watching the thread for a while and I obviously am in the minority here. But I still stand by everything I wrote, and I suppose if I had enough uses for a hoe as some others on this board, then I would buy a small, dedicated track hoe. Something with a minimum of a 10' reach and an 18" or larger bucket. That would be a much more useful machine than a slow to use, undersized backhoe with a 7' or 8' reach that makes moving the unit a too frequent chore.
But I don't want to find uses for a dedicated machine and I don't have the need for the bh that now sits idle, so I regret investing anything in the bh.
But I don't want to find uses for a dedicated machine and I don't have the need for the bh that now sits idle, so I regret investing anything in the bh.
AndyMA
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Bob
I respectfully disagree with you. I find the backhoe easily as useful as the front end loader. Where I live, there are so many rocks and roots that I can barely get into the ground without the backhoe. I would never have a tractor with out a backhoe unless it was just for mowing or the like. I realize that many areas of the country don't have the rocks New England has. Renting would also never work because I need it when I need it and I can't arrange al the work for one time.
Andy
I respectfully disagree with you. I find the backhoe easily as useful as the front end loader. Where I live, there are so many rocks and roots that I can barely get into the ground without the backhoe. I would never have a tractor with out a backhoe unless it was just for mowing or the like. I realize that many areas of the country don't have the rocks New England has. Renting would also never work because I need it when I need it and I can't arrange al the work for one time.
Andy
Bob_Skurka
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Andy
I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me. I am speaking for myself and my property. I've owned it for about 14 years, lived here for almost 10, still have not found a rock on the property that I didn't bring here on a truck. I've never dug out a stump, and my backhoe projects are generally larger than a tractor mounted hoe is suited for.
I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me. I am speaking for myself and my property. I've owned it for about 14 years, lived here for almost 10, still have not found a rock on the property that I didn't bring here on a truck. I've never dug out a stump, and my backhoe projects are generally larger than a tractor mounted hoe is suited for.
To20Chris
Platinum Member
I think OkeeDon got it right with the comment on geography and geology. I've got way too many rocks and roots and stumps, etc. I also have a multitude of trenching projects for water control. The BH was one of the major reasons I got the tractor, and I have used it a lot so far. It's a small one (6.5' with a 12" bucket), but it fits well with the jobs I do, and kept the cost down. I know I could rent one, but my schedule is unpredictable, and having it here when I need it and have time is a big deal. I bought an inexpensive little car & it's paid off - I'll gladly drive it til it drops to pay for my BH! Which is just another way of saying I could swing the price of admission, and I choose to spend it on the BH. If I couldn't have afforded it, I would have had to find another way, but it is likely I would not have bought the tractor either.
Maybe someday I'll run out of stumps and rocks and pipes - nah, who am I kidding! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Maybe someday I'll run out of stumps and rocks and pipes - nah, who am I kidding! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
OkieG
Veteran Member
<font color="blue"> I think OkeeDon got it right with the comment on geography and geology. </font>
OkeeD has a point, but as I see it, there are 3 types of people we've found responding here:
1. Those who need a BH, and get it. ie AndyMA.
2. Those who don't need a BH, and either don't get one, or wouldn't get one again, ie Bob Skurka.
(I think these are the two types OkeeDon is talking about)
3. Those who don't (really) need a BH, but get one anyway, and would do it again, ie Henro.
People 1 and people 2 are rational, know what they need (or call a mistake a mistake), and act accordingly.
People 3 are irrational, know what they want, and act accordingly (Mistake?! What are you talking about?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif).
Who's right, who's wrong? Personally, I can be very rational. Especially, on issues I don't care too much about. But, we're not talking about those kinds of issues....we're talking tractors!
Unfortunately, I find myself as a People 3 person. It's a character flaw that I pretend to work on from time to time. My BH does get work done, but just the satisfaction of operating the machine, and doing it when I want to is priceless and worth more to me than the work that gets done. Is there MasterCard ad material here?
Hey, listen,...just calling a spade a spade. A few years after you figure out you're a People 3 person you quit trying to justify. Life is to live. I have some regrets in my life re: money spent, but at least as many re: money not spent. When faced with a tractor related purchase, "No", is still a possibility, but I try to work through that.
OkieG
OkeeD has a point, but as I see it, there are 3 types of people we've found responding here:
1. Those who need a BH, and get it. ie AndyMA.
2. Those who don't need a BH, and either don't get one, or wouldn't get one again, ie Bob Skurka.
(I think these are the two types OkeeDon is talking about)
3. Those who don't (really) need a BH, but get one anyway, and would do it again, ie Henro.
People 1 and people 2 are rational, know what they need (or call a mistake a mistake), and act accordingly.
People 3 are irrational, know what they want, and act accordingly (Mistake?! What are you talking about?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif).
Who's right, who's wrong? Personally, I can be very rational. Especially, on issues I don't care too much about. But, we're not talking about those kinds of issues....we're talking tractors!
Unfortunately, I find myself as a People 3 person. It's a character flaw that I pretend to work on from time to time. My BH does get work done, but just the satisfaction of operating the machine, and doing it when I want to is priceless and worth more to me than the work that gets done. Is there MasterCard ad material here?
Hey, listen,...just calling a spade a spade. A few years after you figure out you're a People 3 person you quit trying to justify. Life is to live. I have some regrets in my life re: money spent, but at least as many re: money not spent. When faced with a tractor related purchase, "No", is still a possibility, but I try to work through that.
OkieG
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( OkeeDon:
<font color="red">There is no easy way to move the tractor with the hoe bucket. Every time you want to reposition, which would be often with a trench, you have to climb out of one seat and into the other, raise the stabilizers, release the brake and put it in gear, guess at how far to move it, set the brake and put it in neutral, climb off the tractor and back onto the backhoe seat, lower the stabilizers, and dig again for a short time before you have to repeat it all. </font>
Not true. I move mine easily (short distances) from the BH seat. Raise the stabilizers a bit, use the bucket to shift the machine forward/backwards/side to side.
JEH )</font>
Libertine, How do you do that? Do you lift the rear wheels completely off the ground with the bucket and shove the tractor around while it's in the air?
<font color="red">There is no easy way to move the tractor with the hoe bucket. Every time you want to reposition, which would be often with a trench, you have to climb out of one seat and into the other, raise the stabilizers, release the brake and put it in gear, guess at how far to move it, set the brake and put it in neutral, climb off the tractor and back onto the backhoe seat, lower the stabilizers, and dig again for a short time before you have to repeat it all. </font>
Not true. I move mine easily (short distances) from the BH seat. Raise the stabilizers a bit, use the bucket to shift the machine forward/backwards/side to side.
JEH )</font>
Libertine, How do you do that? Do you lift the rear wheels completely off the ground with the bucket and shove the tractor around while it's in the air?
OP
Henro
Super Member
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- Few miles north of Pgh, PA
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- Kubota B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini EX
<font color="blue"> 3. Those who don't (really) need a BH, but get one anyway, and would do it again, ie Henro.
...People 3 are irrational, know what they want, and act accordingly (Mistake?! What are you talking about?? ). </font>
OkieG,
You may have hit the nail on the head...come to think of it, along with the backhoe I also have a wife... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Your theory seems applicable to more than just backhoes! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I think there is a 4th category...those that need/want a backhoe but don't buy one for whatever reason... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
And a 5th maybe...those that really need/want a backhoe but don't know it yet... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Works for tractors too...
...People 3 are irrational, know what they want, and act accordingly (Mistake?! What are you talking about?? ). </font>
OkieG,
You may have hit the nail on the head...come to think of it, along with the backhoe I also have a wife... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Your theory seems applicable to more than just backhoes! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I think there is a 4th category...those that need/want a backhoe but don't buy one for whatever reason... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
And a 5th maybe...those that really need/want a backhoe but don't know it yet... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Works for tractors too...
OP
Henro
Super Member
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- 5,005
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- Few miles north of Pgh, PA
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- Kubota B2910, BX2200, KX41-2V mini EX
<font color="blue"> Libertine, How do you do that? Do you lift the rear wheels completely off the ground with the bucket and shove the tractor around while it's in the air?
</font>
I'll let JEH speak for himself, but I know with my backhoe it is not recommended that you move the tractor with it.
Larger backhoe (the real things) regularly do this kind of move. Bucket is flat on the ground so it will slide and not dig in, stabilizers lifted off the ground a little(maybe), and the backhoe is used to lift, push or swing the rear.
It is pretty neat to see what the real backhoes/operators are able to do with their machines (as I guess you know better than I do). I wonder if some of us are doing simalar things with our tractors?
When I got my backhoe I found a library book that had a lot of pictures...I don't have any real personal knowledge on the subject, by the way.
Bottom line for me is trying to move my tractor with the backhoe the way a large tractor can be moved, especially since it is not recommended by the manufacturer, is something I decided not to do.
It is a major pain to have to keep moving from the backhoe seat to the driver's seat to reposition the tractor after a few feet of digging when the trench is long. But it sure beats digging by hand so my back does not complain. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I did get my tractor stuck in mud when I first got it, and used the backhoe to lift the rear enough to get some wood under the rear tires so I guess it may have the power to lift and push the tractor...
Having a 3PH backhoe is another reason I want to avoid making it a practice of lifting the rear of the tractor with the hoe. This puts a lifting force on the 3PH end of the hoe, and if the top link attach point would break, would tend to push the seat up towards the rops, with me in the middle! There is a safety bar under the 3PH arms to prevent such an event...but I hope I never have to rely on it...
I wonder if anyone came up with extenders for the HST directional pedal, loader joystick and steering wheel, that would make moving the tractor from the backhoe seat simpler to do? Hummm...do I see a winter project in the making? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
</font>
I'll let JEH speak for himself, but I know with my backhoe it is not recommended that you move the tractor with it.
Larger backhoe (the real things) regularly do this kind of move. Bucket is flat on the ground so it will slide and not dig in, stabilizers lifted off the ground a little(maybe), and the backhoe is used to lift, push or swing the rear.
It is pretty neat to see what the real backhoes/operators are able to do with their machines (as I guess you know better than I do). I wonder if some of us are doing simalar things with our tractors?
When I got my backhoe I found a library book that had a lot of pictures...I don't have any real personal knowledge on the subject, by the way.
Bottom line for me is trying to move my tractor with the backhoe the way a large tractor can be moved, especially since it is not recommended by the manufacturer, is something I decided not to do.
It is a major pain to have to keep moving from the backhoe seat to the driver's seat to reposition the tractor after a few feet of digging when the trench is long. But it sure beats digging by hand so my back does not complain. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I did get my tractor stuck in mud when I first got it, and used the backhoe to lift the rear enough to get some wood under the rear tires so I guess it may have the power to lift and push the tractor...
Having a 3PH backhoe is another reason I want to avoid making it a practice of lifting the rear of the tractor with the hoe. This puts a lifting force on the 3PH end of the hoe, and if the top link attach point would break, would tend to push the seat up towards the rops, with me in the middle! There is a safety bar under the 3PH arms to prevent such an event...but I hope I never have to rely on it...
I wonder if anyone came up with extenders for the HST directional pedal, loader joystick and steering wheel, that would make moving the tractor from the backhoe seat simpler to do? Hummm...do I see a winter project in the making? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
RobS
Super Member
<font color="blue">I know with my backhoe it is not recommended that you move the tractor with it.
</font>
Rather than hi-jack this thread I'll start a new one under "Owning/Operating" to cover this interesting topic /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
</font>
Rather than hi-jack this thread I'll start a new one under "Owning/Operating" to cover this interesting topic /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
MadDog
Platinum Member
Bill: I have found that it's not difficult to move the tractor from the BH seat. I can reach the FEL joystick and steering wheel quite easily and you can just use a pushstick to give the HST pedal a little nudge. Generally, you're only adjusting the BH position a bit to get better digging position and on a 7.5' BH that only requires going a few feet.
BTW, the more I read of this thread, the more I am convinced that I had it right in my earlier post; it's a purely individual value judgment - anyone who is uncomfortablel spending the $ on a backhoe, shouldn't and should rent instead and accept the inconveniences that that entails.
Conversely, those (like you and me, for example /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) who are willing to pay the price and prefer the convenience of being able to hitch up the BH for two or three hours of work whenever they have the time and inclination, should buy a BH so long as it doesn't screw up their family finances. If it did, the CFO would certainly object and the fun of using the BH would be easily outweighed by the domestic grief. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
BTW, the more I read of this thread, the more I am convinced that I had it right in my earlier post; it's a purely individual value judgment - anyone who is uncomfortablel spending the $ on a backhoe, shouldn't and should rent instead and accept the inconveniences that that entails.
Conversely, those (like you and me, for example /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) who are willing to pay the price and prefer the convenience of being able to hitch up the BH for two or three hours of work whenever they have the time and inclination, should buy a BH so long as it doesn't screw up their family finances. If it did, the CFO would certainly object and the fun of using the BH would be easily outweighed by the domestic grief. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
