Which models are the knock-offs?

Bob_Skurka · Mar 17, 2005

If I were designing a tractor from scratch.... well, I'm not the inventor around here. I'd wait until someone else invented it, didn't patent it, then steal it or knock it off....then deny that I did it. 

Isn't that what Kioti did with the old style Kubotas several years back? (which was essentially proved in court).
Isn't that what they are doing now with the CK line-up versus the C/NH products?

I personally think the DK65 is following a better path because it doesn't seem to be anyone else's tractor. It stands on its own.

slowzuki · Mar 17, 2005

At what point do you call it copying or competition?

If I put a 50% larger hydraulic pump on my tractor compared to competing models and other manufacturers follow suit as they don't want their specs outclassed, is that copying?

If I put a sloped hood for visibility on my tractor and my competitors follow suit, are they copying?

If it wasn't for competition/ copying we wouldn't have the 3 point hitch.

_RaT_ · Mar 17, 2005

You make 3 good points including the one about the 3 point.

rtimgray · Mar 17, 2005

I thought that the 3 point hitch was proprietary (Ford - but Ferguson invented it and Ford stole it or something, I can't remember) until the patent expired, thus allowing for all manufacturers to copy/knock off/emulate/ etc - but I'm not sure.

In my opinion, a "knock-off" is taking something, reverse engineering it (i.e. take it apart and copy every component), and then producing the product. Where was the lawsuit that essentially proved that Kioti did this Kubota? I only saw the one about the trade dress stuff - and I mean this sincerely. I did not know about a lawsuit that actually alleged Kioti stole/knocked-off exact Kubota tractor designs.

Copying and competition seem to have a very blurry line - like mentioned earlier, NH pioneered the curved arm loader, so are both Kioti and JD guilty of knocking off or copying/competing (I would say the latter because I doubt that there are interchangable parts)?

I've seen the CK series up close but I have never seen the CNH products that Bob is comparing them too, so I don't know how similar they are.

Why would a company such as Daedong copy some tractors (like the CK series and some of the DKs and make some from scratch (55 and 65)? Is it maybe just the competition/copy thing or is it a coincidence....you know, if we didn't have coincidences, there wouldn't be a word for it.

Edit: Here, I found this on the web:

A standard three-point hitch lets you quickly hook up to a huge variety of implements regardless of the manufacturer. Most tractors built since the late 50s have a 3-point hitch. (Before that they had only a drawbar, or a hydraulic hitch that only fit implements made by the same company as the tractor. A guy named Harry Ferguson invented the 3-point hitch and went into partnership with Henry Ford, so Fords had it before anyone else. It went off-patent in the 50s sometime, and all the other manufacturers eventually adopted it).

I guess that was done back in the day when people invented things and patented them to keep them from being stolen until the patent expired. So that would mean that all the other manufacturers either copied or knocked-off, depending on your preference, the 3 point hitch.

Bob_Skurka · Mar 17, 2005

Copying and competition seem to have a very blurry line - like mentioned earlier, NH pioneered the curved arm loader, so are both Kioti and JD guilty of knocking off or copying/competing (I would say the latter because I doubt that there are interchangable parts)?


The John Deere loader is substantially different in design that the CNH loader. The CK loaders are substantially the same, so close in design that you really have to wonder if they interchange. The only visual cue, other than color, that they are really different is that Kioti uses an over the hood brace that is not present on the CNH product. The Kioti & NH tractors themselves are also very similar in profile size and shape. While the JD tractors are substantially different in profile size and shape. I think it is unfair to say that JD copied the design, while they did follow an evolutionary path of working to increase the visibility of the loader bucket and the ground in front of the tractor, they followed a completely different path to achieve their goal.

rtimgray · Mar 17, 2005

"are also very similar in profile size and shape."

So now just being similar means they copy. I suppose Kioti just bought a loader, laid it down on tracing paper and then started producing. I doubt it. They probably, to your point, said - Man, NH has a good idea. Let's emulate that...and then proceeded to engineer the loader from the ground up. JD probably did the same thing and maybe added a further distinction.

So are the CKs and the NHs the SAME, or are the merely SIMILAR in terms of the profile and shapes? How different must a tractor be from another to not be badged a copier? Again, I ask, why would Kioti choose to copy some models yet seemingly build some models from scratch? Do the engines from the Kiotis and NH interchange? Transmissions? Axles? Hydraulic pumps? Etc Etc Etc. So is the similarity skin deep or is it through and through? If it ends at similarity with sheetmetal and some shapes - I'd say it's competition, not copying.

Dargo · Mar 17, 2005

( I ask, why would Kioti choose to copy some models yet seemingly build some models from scratch? )

How about, they are now actually to the point where they are creating their own designs and their own identity. They now have proven that when they copy a design that they do not necessarily make a "cheap" and non-functioning replica.

For some reason you don't seem to believe that a company can copy off of another company and do a respectable job of doing so. I, too, believe that their new DK65 certainly looks to be of their own design and undoubtedly has impressive statistics. Let's face it, Kioti is a respectible tractor builder. It's just when you put on blinders, put your fingers in your ears and chant na, na, na, so you can't see or hear what's happening, it makes it difficult for people to follow you. I'd venture to say that 99 out of 100 Kioti employees recognize that Kubota was the blueprint for most of their tractors, and other successful and respected companies such as NH have been the impetus for others. Gees, they certainly could have positioned themselves after worse makes. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

rtimgray · Mar 17, 2005

"For some reason you don't seem to believe that a company can copy off of another company and do a respectable job of doing so". Don't know where you got that impression from - in fact, in a post that is now deleted (maybe you didn't get a chance to see it) I stated that I work for a company that makes excellent emulations of brand name products - I know that it can be done - that's why I have a job! I think that you are missing the crux of my question/argument -

"It's just when you put on blinders, put your fingers in your ears and chant na, na, na, so you can't see or hear what's happening, it makes it difficult for people to follow you"

Dude - I see and hear everything that has been posted, but nobody has answered the question. All I asked was for somebody, anybody, I don't care who - you, Bob, cowboydoc, anybody - to tell me which models are the knockoffs. I've gotten replies that, low and behold, shock of shocks, SOME Kioti models are SIMILAR to some models of other manufacturers, but they are not the SAME! However, some folks, with blinders on, fingers in the ears, under a rock in a cave on Mars with their fingers in their ears saying "no no no nobody can make a tractor equal to my brand name-mobile for a lower cost - it must be a cheap knock off (I'm paraphrasing you now)", say they must be cheap knock offs, yet cannot produce, when given the opportunity, any factual basis other than - uh...well, they're orange...start with "K"....they have headlights...umm, four wheels, diesel engine...yep, must be a cheap knock off.

Any ideas on where I can find the lawsuit that proved earlier Kiotis were indeed direct reverse engineered or clones of Kubotas (and I'm not saying that they weren't - just haven't seen any concrete evidence that they were).

On a completely different subject, you've got a Clark forklift, right? Where do you get your parts/service/support from? The industrial dealers around here (evansville/paducah/hopkinsville) dropped Clark when they went bankrupt. They say they can still get new trucks with about a year lead time and that they are no longer made in Kentucky but instead in (wouldn't you know it) South Korea. Just curious if you still had support for your Clark truck or not. Take care.

slowzuki · Mar 17, 2005

Dargo,

I don't think you can say blueprint, I think benchmark is a better word. Strip the sheet metal off and there are significant differences. As an example,say the DK 65 old model. The chassis has not really changed to the new model.
Some major differences to a Kubota M6800 its contender. The M6800 is about the same age roughly, both are mature products.

The kioti has fender/floor mounted shuttle, shift and range, with 3 ranges and optional creep (I think). The kubota has tween the legs shift, 2 ranges with an optional creep with optional hydraulic clutchless shuttle on the column. These are two pretty different setups internally.

The Kioti has 540-1000 shiftable and I think ground speed pto with electric over hydraulic where as the kubota has 540 or 1000 requiring swapping the shaft with manual over hydraulic engagment.

The Kubota has a naturally aspirated, larger displacement motor, the kioti has a smaller turbo'd Perkins.

These are just some major mechanical differences between two models. The kioti has more in common with some euro tractors on this model.

I don't prefer one or the other, I can't say Dadong did or didn't copy but being angry about it is pointless. It is only a tool.

Re the curved arm loader, I personally feel they are a bunch of fuss over nothing new. Manufactures built curved arm loaders in the 50's, to bad they only had trip buckets!

Look at heavy equipment, they use every sort of arm and linkage, whatever needed to clear tires and carry the load.

And for all we know, the Kioti loaders could be made by the same sub as the New Hollands, both are made in the US if I'm not mistaken. The Kubota dealer here mentioned the Kubota's loaders are made under contract. THe M series in Canada use Quike ALO loaders. HE didn't say who makes the L series loaders.

rtimgray · Mar 17, 2005

You know, now that you mention it, I saw a grey market Shibaura back in about 2000 (and it was probably an 80s model then) that had a curved arm loader - it was the one of the loaders from Japan, no down pressure, small bucket etc. So I guess NH didn't invent the curved arm loader - any chance they got the idea from their Shibaura co-manufacturing buddies? Who knows.

IMPORTANT NEWS

This just in, from what I consider to be a reliable souce. It seems as though earlier Kioti models, some not for sale in the American market, had some interchangeable parts with Kubota (steering gear, water pumps, etc). However, the exact origins (were these reverse engineered, close copies, coincidences, or (rehashing some of the oldest rumors) the result of Daedong buying/stealing some of Kubotas old tooling? I fear that the answer is probably lost to the mists of time (maybe not). So it does appear, at least in some point in history, that some Kiotis at least shared some common components with some Kubotas? Was it the whole tractor...dunno? Oh well...

Let's argue about that curved arm loader thing some more. I gotta see if I can find a picture of that Shibaura with a curved loader so we can see if New Holland made a knock-off of that!

Dargo · Mar 17, 2005

The loader on my 5030 was manufactured by Kubota in their plant in GA. They are mighty proud of that I might add. There is only about 4 tags and stickers saying so. I have a lot of respect for the Perkins engine and the 65 has tremendous capabilities.

Okay rti, on my Clark forklift, I'm walking on eggshells. At under 700 hours the junk Mitsubishi engine completely took a dump. No hard use, no lack of lubrication, no lack of maintenance. Unfortunately for me, I did not know that it had a Mitsubishi engine until it went bye bye. If you want, you can laugh. I'll still cry. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I did get a little assistance from Mitsu, but not what I expected. Since it is only for very limited use in my personal barn, I'm hoping that it will stay together. I do not have a warm and fuzzy feeling for Mitsubishi by any possible stretch of the imagination. For service, I had Black Equipment absolutely rip me a new one until I found a company way off in Poseyville who is reasonable. If you are asking because it has a Mitsubishi engine, yes, you got me there. From all my research, (post puking engine) the Mitsubishi automotive and forklift engines are apparently several steps down from being ranked as lemons. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif Hopefully their diesel engines are not so bad. And, no, I don't own a Mitsu diesel engine.

shoppintractors · Mar 17, 2005

Good post slowzuki.

And for all we know, the Kioti loaders could be made by the same sub as the New Hollands, both are made in the US if I'm not mistaken. 

The Kioti 'curved arm' loaders are made in South Korea. Riding by on a galloping horse they do look similar to the New Holland curved arm loaders. Comparing them close up there are differences. The size of the arms are not the same, the mounting brackets on the top ends of the arms are not the same. The plumbing is different....

Don

rtimgray · Mar 17, 2005

Hey man, I don't wish mechanical misery on anybody. I promise I was not trying to open a wound or change the subject - well, I guess I was trying to change the subject, but it had been on my mind for a while.

I specifically wondered if you had dealt with Black Equipment. My plant recently bought an Advance Sweeper Scrubber from them that we have had in the plant for two weeks and it won't pick up water (this is an industrial floor scurbber, puts down water and detergent, scrubs the floor, then vacuums it up)...it does good except for that last part. The Black service guys have been in several times, and the scrubber still does not perform - it's going back next week and we are getting a different model from a different dealer.

I'm guessing the Clark lift probably has pretty limited trade value - have you checked with Black about trading it in on a Yale (that's their main brand they carry now-but you probably know that). If you are ever in the market, we get excellent service out of Prolift (they're in Evansville and Louisville and other locations) who reps Toyota (we've got 25 of their trucks) and OKI Systems formerly Niehaus Industrial in Evansville, now with locations in Evansville, Cincinnati, Louisville or Lexington - they rep Crown (electric trucks only), Komatsu (we've rented some really nice LP Komatsus) and Daewoo (which the salesmen admit is an economy brand - not for a 24/7 operation but very good for the single shift operation for the money.

I didn't know that Mitsubishi didn't make good trucks-I've been told that all of Caterpillar's industrial trucks are rebadged Mitsubishis, although I don't have any proof of that. I wish you the best of luck with it. I'm sure you take good care of it so maybe it will hold up for a few more years.

Steve_Miller · Mar 18, 2005

Can't prove anything, but if my eyes and my brain don't deceive me my old 1986 B7200 Kubota and my new 2004 CK20 Kioti have the identical engine. Everything from the brackets, valve pan covers and even the decompression lever looked identical, as a matter of fact the cubic inch displacement is even listed as identical at 56.6 in both the Kubota manual and the Kioti manual, the only exception being the Kubota was rated at 17HP and the Kioti at 21HP. I like them both. As I stated in some post months ago, anyone can buy a motor or whatever generic part off the shelf and put it on there machine (i.e...John Deere for one example). Daedong was mainly in the marine diesel industry were they not? Who's to say that twenty years ago Kubota had a contract with Daedong to supply engines for a certain line of tractors just like perkins does for various manufacturers to name one. Like someone said a few posts back, I can't tell the difference between most small cars on the road today, they all look very similar to me. That my two cents worth, thanks for your time and patience.

Steve /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kiohio · Mar 18, 2005

Actually if we took all diesel engines(of same basic size,displacement etc) out of their respective tractors no-one except maybe the factory techs could tell the differences. The diesel engine has been around a LONG time. They are all pretty much the same. Most use the Bosch K-pump or a OH NO a knock -off. Lets just give it up....if we want to trace roots and compare this and that we'll be here arguing for a LONG time. BTW I have a picture of a visit to Korea by a big Kioti dealer, it was when I first starting to sell Kiotis....over 4 years ago....It showed a line up of the CK's 20, 25 and 30. They were prototypes. I have the picture somewhere, no-one would admit what they were, even to the point of saying the CK25/30 wasn't even a prototype yet.....6 months before it was actually released to market. If we knew all of the cross sharing of secrets we would have no loyalty to any brand. They all steal from each other and share secrets. BUT they aren't going to tell us.

KO

Bob_Skurka · Mar 18, 2005

I wrote: "are also very similar in profile size and shape." 

rtimgray wrote: So now just being similar means they copy. I suppose Kioti just bought a loader, laid it down on tracing paper and then started producing. I doubt it. They probably, to your point, said - Man, NH has a good idea. Let's emulate that. 

Well, I don't know what you call a "knock-off." But let us presume that your definition of a "knock-off" is a EXACT replica down to every detail. That would breach all sorts of laws and would be illegal.

What I consider a "knock-off" is something that is substantially similar to a well known brand and emulates the look and/or functionality to attempt to garner an enhanced image and/or increased sales without infringing on trademarks or patents. That definition is pretty much in line with what the marketing professionals agree is a good definition of "knock-off." It is also a "reasonable" definition that most reasonable people can generally agree to.

ORIGINAL: Ocean Spray Cran-Apple
KNOCK OFF: Langers Apple Cranberry Cocktail. There are dozens of other examples of store brands that have attempted to emulate Ocean Spray.

ORIGINAL: Rolex President with Jubilee band
KNOCK OFF: Sieko, Bulova, etc have a watch that is, from 10' away, visually the same watch design. Mechanically different and upon close inspection different.
FORGERY: The various illegal goods that are virtual duplicates of a real Rolex and include Rolex trademarks in an attempt to pass themselves off as a real Rolex.

Now bear in mind, I have not criticized Kioti anywhere in this thread, in fact if you go back I compliment them on the CK20 and the CK30 as besting the original designs in some ways. They clearly copied the CNH loaders as models for their 120 and 130 loaders. They also clearly copied the look of the original TC21 and TC29 for the CK20 and CK30. But I never said they made them as forgeries where parts could interchange. A knock-off, which is what you asked about, does not have to be an exact copy (again that would be illegal), it simply has to be another companies version of an original product that is very similar.

As for a point brought up earlier in this thread about Shibura having a curved arm trip bucket loader years ago, it is possible they did. And as Shibura is the builder of the small CNH tractors, and as their business relationship goes back quite a while in time (at least as far back as when the company was called Ford), I would have to think that todays loaders are an evolutionary design of their own.

I think Kioho makes a valid point that they all look at each others designs. They also don't admit it. I've never levied a value judgement on if it is right or wrong, I just pointed it out. It seems pretty obvious.

slowzuki · Mar 18, 2005

Ok so I am way off on the loaders /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif I was told the l series loaders were made under contract for Kubota though.

Re teh curved loaders, most steel companies offer radius rolling for structural steel so it isn't exactly proprietry tech. Many architectural projects take advantage of this. At a previous employer they use this to make a circular chainfall track.

rtimgray · Mar 18, 2005

"ORIGINAL: Ocean Spray Cran-Apple
KNOCK OFF: Langers Apple Cranberry Cocktail. There are dozens of other examples of store brands that have attempted to emulate Ocean Spray."

It's funny you mention this one - as I have said before, the company that I work for makes the knock-offs that you speak of (not cran-apple juice but crackers). Store brand crackers is our business...but as much with tractors, there are similarities to crackers, and you may be shocked to find out that not ALL brand name crackers are made by the Brand Names (I hope you get what I'm implying here) - so sometimes it's a knock off and sometimes its a knock-off in a name brand box - but I doubt you could tell the difference (this is called co-manufacturing or co-packing).

"What I consider a "knock-off" is something that is substantially similar to a well known brand and emulates the look and/or functionality to attempt to garner an enhanced image and/or increased sales without infringing on trademarks or patents." Then that explains it: I think you have the wrong definition of knock-off. You think I have the wrong definition of knock-off, and I don't think that we will agree and it doesn't make a rat's pajamas difference to me.

"it simply has to be another companies version of an original product that is very similar." Yet it seems as though I still agree with some of your points - it's just what you consider to be a knock-off I think is just competition. I'll make a truce with you like Dargo made with me - let's agree to disagree.

Bob_Skurka · Mar 18, 2005

rtimgray, I was never arguing, I was simply laying out an explination with supporting evidence. No truce is needed with me because, at least from my perspective, I was never engaged in a brawl.

I guess at this juncture, I would like to know what you believe is a "knock-off." It sounds to me like you have a definition in mind that a "knock-off" is an exact replica of the original? That, of course, would not be competition, that would be trademark and/or patent infringement.

As for the food co-packing issues, I am very familiar with them. My company distributes thousands of different consumer items to retail stores. We carry both the name brands as well as PL merchandise.

rtimgray · Mar 18, 2005

"I guess at this juncture, I would like to know what you believe is a "knock-off." It sounds to me like you have a definition in mind that a "knock-off" is an exact replica of the original? That, of course, would not be competition, that would be trademark and/or patent infringement."

Here you go, from an earlier post in this thread, that I suppose you were too busy not arguing with me to read:

In my opinion, a "knock-off" is taking something, reverse engineering it (i.e. take it apart and copy every component), and then producing the product.

"As for the food co-packing issues, I am very familiar with them. My company distributes thousands of different consumer items to retail stores. We carry both the name brands as well as PL merchandise." But can you tell which brand names are made in brand name factories and which ones are co-packed - that's the point of that.