where are the coyotes?

[TresCrows]

All of God's creatures have a purpose, if only to bother you Mosey. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif J

 

[TresCrows]

I like your "sum of all intelligence is constant, it's the population that is growing" hypothesis. I beat you to it, however, and infuriated my highschool teacher with that hypothesis many years ago, but feel free to advance it at every opportunity.
There have been several threads on or involving coyotes. They will eat Lapsho Apsos and ****zus and kitty kats, they will kill fawns and new born calves, sheep etc, they are also one of natures checks and balances and cuz we screwed everything up there are now to many coyotes--in some places--and to many deer just about everywhere. I suspect a lot of coyote stories are "legend" . J

 

[cowboydoc]

You are right Ed. There are also hundreds of confirmed kills of coyotes and calves esp. in the west. Yes they do hunt in packs at times as well, esp. with cattle. They are even worse on lambs and will decimate a herd that isn't protected.

 

[patrickg]

Sorry, did I forget to mention I was reporting on MY LOCAL information and your mileage may vary????

Here is another interesting FACT(???) There is no verified incidence of a wolf killing a human in the USA (I think I recall it being North America but it has been a while since I was reading into that topic.) Lots of hand me down myths but no verified incidences. "White Fang", "Call of the Wild", etc, Jack London could sure hold a young man spellbound with his tales, just don't confuse fiction with fact.

We have so many white tailed deer they are agricultural pests. We have "EXTRA" hunting seasons to try to reduce the herds, special anterless bag limits/seasons too. If coyotes were much threat to the deer population around here we wouldn't have sooooo many deer. Don't see too many sheep in this area except when the grade school children are trying to ride them at the rodeo (mutton busting). Can't say from first hand evidence or credible neighbor's report that coyotes take lambs, not having many around.

Heard about the Llamas, great idea.

If I actually had or my neighbors had a legitimate problem with coyotes (beyond useless little fluffy dogs being eaten) I would help reduce their numbers (Scoped 22-250 good on coyotes to 300 yds or better). I like dogs but it is inconsiderate of folks to move to a rural venue and expect nature to follow the script of a Disney animation.

Patrick

 

[beenthere]

<font color=blue>There is no verified incidence of a wolf killing a human in the USA (I think
I recall it being North America but it has been a while since I was reading into that topic.) Lots of hand me
down myths but no verified incidences.<font color=black>

I agree with your take on the wolf killing a human, and wish you would have used the same logic (comment) when you mentioned the "Mad Deer Disease" in another thread. Its mis-information such as this that will keep a lot of hunters from going deer hunting in Wisconsin this year.
There are no "facts" supporting this as the same as Mad Cow Disease (other than the protein prions), and no facts to support any humans dying from eating venison from a deer with CWD. It is the kind of media hype that is being used to try to excite the populus. There apparently have been unsuccessful CWD experiments and research done for several years trying to infect other species (other than the cervids). So far it cannot be done. There seems to be a natural barrier of this disease moving outside the cervids (deer, elk). Scrapies in sheep has been around for years, and it is similar. There again, there is no panic when it comes to humans eating sheep meat. Sorry to expound on this, but I don't beleive the panic button should be pushed here. I think we should be much more fearful of the West Nile virus, than we need to be of CWD. I also think CWD has been around for years, and we eat venison with no apparent effects.

Now about calling coyotes - I understand hunters using a rabbit distress call have had mountain lions come up pretty close behind them too, along with the coyotes. Gives them a bit of a surprise.

 

[8NTX]

I think I have seen more coyotes in town than in the country lately. Almost every time I go to DFW Airport, there is a coyote running along the edge of a small patch of woods near the south entrance. In the last 18 months, we have only seen one at our acreage in East Texas. Our place is across the road from a 1400 acre cattle ranch so we hear them almost every night. But the rancher says he hardly ever loses a calf to coyotes. They will stalk a momma cow giving birth, but mainly to get at the afterbirth. The momma cows and even the rest of the herd (black angus) tend to be protective of the calves.

The coyotes don't seem to be putting a dent in the fallow deer population in E. Texas. Last year it was white tail - saw maybe 12-15 all year long. This year, we see several fallow deer every day we are there. And they tend to run right in front of your car for some reason. I guess if the coyotes or hunters don't get 'em, the cars will.

 

[cp1969]

I wonder if all these livestock killings were witnessed or if tracks were found by a carcass--then I have to wonder how many people can tell a coyote track from a dog track.

Dogs will pack up and attack livestock; I've personally seen it and have sent many a dog-pack member to meet his maker. In my limited experience of living my whole life in rural communities, never--not once--have I seen a pack of coyotes attack livestock. In fact, the only time they pack up at all is during mating season and that is obviously for another purpose.

 

[EdKing]

<font color=blue>I wonder if all these livestock killings were witnessed </font color=blue>

Yes, they were witnessed. In fact my nerighbor has shot several coyotes attacking his sheep. He keeps his land posted, no hunting, but has told me and my other neighbors we are welcome to hunt coyotes on his land any time we want. That number of lambs wasn't a total figure, but a yearly figure. Even with the llama and the donkey, he is still loosing lambs to coyotes each year. As far as cows go, I haven't heard of any losses, but there may have been some of them.

 

[cp1969]

You witnessed it or your neighbor told you he did?

 

[patrickg]

beenthere, Sorry if I was too sloppy, I sure didn't mean to imply that Mad Cow had crossed over into deer and elk. I intended to say there was something out there in deer and elk which may be similar, I believe that is the way the info was presented by the unimpeachable paragon of reporting virtue, CNN. Seems that (here is where I may have recalled wrong) there were six (but it could have been three) hunters who died and had been eating their game for years. Don't recall the details, if many/any were given, on how they were legitimately grouped together and related to game eating. Don't want to let "post hoc, propter ergo hoc" make a fool of anyone.

Had it been on "Sightings" or something I saw in the supermarket checkout line on the front page of the "National Enquirer" (should be called "Wild [censored] Speculator") in between the Elvis sightings and the lead article about space aliens raping our chickens, I wouldn't have ever have mentioned it.

Patrick

 

[cstocks]

I cannot attest to whether or not coyotes attack livestock but I do know that a wild pack of dogs will.

I grew up in the country and we had a pack of wild dogs roaming the woods for many of my pre-teen and early teen years. The neighbors had a hog farm and the dogs would chase the pigs/hogs and bite their tails off. I don't know if they ever killed a piglet but they did create havoc amongst the older hogs.

The farm owners also owned a packing co. in town and they would bring the hides, scraps and bones to the farm. The scraps and bones were cooked in a huge vat or kettle and I guess feed to the hogs. The remains of that plus the hides were kept in a scrap pile on the back end of the farm. My dad, my brother and I, along with other invited adult guests, would slip down the back road with .22s around dusk and try to catch the wild dogs at the scrap pile. The dogs were very smart and rarely did we get a shot.

One time we caught a wild dog pup in the woods and brought it home to raise. We named him Foxy. Several years later we owned a German Shepard. The pack of wild dogs would come up to the edge of the woods at night and, we supposed, tried to lure our dog away. Our dog would get ansy and bark back at the unseen intruders and run off into the edge of the woods and back out again. The wild dogs would bark and howl in the woods and over time it seemed more and more like our dog wanted to join them. After several months of this going on our dog finally disappeared. I always believed he joined up with the pack but my dad thinks a neighbor shot him.

I do know that another one of our neighbor's dog, a grouchy old beagle named Trailer, was lured off with the pack and was reportly seen running around the countryside with the pack. Often we would hear the pack running something, probably deer, off in the distant woods and we always wondered if old Trailer was leading the pack and using his nose to find prospective prey to kill.

Only once did I shoot a wild dog. We found where they had denned in the side of a hill full of gullies. One Sunday afternoon my dad went looking for them. I spotted a half grown pup and nailed him with a 12 gauge slug from about 40 yards.

Over time the dogs finally disappeared. I don't know if humans hunted and killed them or if the pack just came across hard times and died off. Even though that pack of dogs was a nuisance it was nonetheless a thrill to hear them at night howling and barking off in the woods. Kinda reminds me of "Call of the Wild" by Jack London.

 

[beenthere]

I can attest to the pack of dogs killing sheep, calves, chickens, and pigs (never children but we thought it was just a matter of time). But the packs we knew about were always tame dogs (had homes on farms and in town and some had collars), but would for some reason ban together and go on killing sprees. Sometimes it was in the middle of the day, but usually they struck at night. If we could kill one of the pack, it would break them up for a while. We would ride on the fenders of the cars (best when it was one that had a headlight that one could straddle, and a bumper that one could rest his feet on) at night, and it took two hands to hold, and shoot, the gun. Sometimes we had a shotgun on one side (fender) and a rifle (22) on the other. At the time, we thought it was great fun, but looking back it was on the stupid side of being safe.

 

[cp1969]

Your experience reflects mine very closely.

Dogs will kill hogs. My own dog did it--chew off the tail, then the ears on a couple and finally killed one and earned herself a death sentence in the process.

I have probably shot over 20 dogs that were livestock killers/harrassers. A friend and I earned something of a reputation as 'problem' animal control personnel. Many people cannot pull the trigger on a dog regardless of what the dog has done, but it didn't bother us and were both fair trackers or were just plain lucky to be in the right place at the right time because we were successful at catching them many times. As you said, many times the trail of these pack dogs would lead right back to town where some of the dogs lived as pets but were allowed to run free. If we caught them in the act, though, they were fair game, collar or not. In my experience, dogs (even house dogs when they're loose) act more like wolves than coyotes do.

 

[beenthere]

Your experiences are amazingly close to mine, as once when the farmer across the road was losing prize banty roosters and the farmers wife frantically called one day to say there was a dog there at that moment killing banty's. I jumped in the car, and caught the dog (big Irish Setter) fleeing towards town. I gave chase, and kept track of the dog running between houses until I didn't see it anymore. I back-tracked to where I saw it last and found the dog in a dog house behind the house. I knocked on the door, and no one answered. When I got ready to leave, the neighbors came to the door and the owner of the dog was there. I explained what had happened and the fact that the dog still had feathers hanging from its mouth. She was indignant and absolutely would not believe a word of my story.
I left and said the dog killing the banty's would be shot if we caught it again, and had the chance. It happened, and I shot the dog (was not a pleasant thing to do either). I loaded the dog and dropped it off in the driveway of the owner. She was going to call the Sherriff, which I encouraged her to do as I had witnesses to attest what had happened. No Sheriff contacted me, and the farmer quit losing banty's.

 

[cstocks]

Except for the hog farm next door we had very few neighbors within two or three miles so I don't know what other damage the wild dogs did as far as pets and livestock were concerned.

My dad had a theory about this pack of dogs. Since they roamed the woods for several years he figured that, aside from the inclusion of the occasional new outside member, this pack had for the most part bred among itself and created its own unique breed and identity. Indeed, the majority of the dogs in the pack were of medium build, short haired and yellow. We assumed the pack was orginally made up of strays. But that is not to say a few "owned" dogs might not have joined up, as was noted by my last post.

One of the side "benefits" of living in the country was being on the receiving end of every dumped dog that the folks from town decided they no longer wanted. I guess they figured that us country folks could always use an extra dog and that they did us a favor by dumping out their unwanted pets on the country roads. In actuality most of those dogs ended up dead, either through disease or starvation or from being shot. We always figured that the pack of wild dogs was made up mostly of strays that had survived being dumped and adapted to the feral lifestyle.

Because of the strength and longevity of this pack I wonder to this day how they died off in the end.

 

[TresCrows]

Frankly I think your neighbor is justifying his viewpoint. I do not believe it or him entirely. I do believe it possible coyotes might well kill sickly fawns, lambs but I doubt that they have any real impact on a farmers output so I will place your neighbor into the catagory of urban (rural?) legend creator.
In the 1970's wild feral dogs packed up in neighborhoods of Atlanta Ga. This was reported in papers and magazines including Guns and Ammo I think it was ran a story called Devil Dogs of Ga. I think Time ran a similar report. I suspect the so called coyotes are actually dogs.
Since it was shown on the evening news in Phoenix and reported in the papers and the little girl had the teeth marks in her skull I accept as fact that a large male coyote later killed in the area did in fact attack and attempt to drag a toddler away from her yard were other coyotes waited. I also believe it possible coyotes may well bait dogs away were upon they are killed but lacking proof I prefer to maintain a healthy skeptisism.
The average coyote weighs 30 to 40 lbs. I have heard of some in the 90 lb range but never having seen one again remain unconvinced though 70ish lbs may be possible in some areas. Looking at the pelts recently at a gun show--very nice coyote pelts taken mostly locally here in Kansas--- it looked like they would fit a critter weighing no more than 40 lbs if that, more like a large kitty kat. Not likely these killed many cows and since coyotes are omnivores and also eat dead carion a study of their stomach contents is intersting scientifically but does not prove they killed the deer, lamb etc, only that they ate some of it. Can coyotes get Mad Deer Disease? J

 

[RonL]

A couple of years ago my wife and I were driving on the road outside the city that skirts the city reservoir. We saw a group of people stopped on the side of the road. We stopped and observed a pack of coyotes surrounding a deer on the ice in the middle of the reservoir. Even at a distance we could see that the rear haunches of the deer were covered in blood. The deer was trying to get to its feet but could not. Several people in the crowd were saying: " Why doesn't somebody do something". The coyotes were becoming increasingly wary of the gathering crowd, stopping as they circled the downed deer and steered at the gathering crowd. Eventually the coyotes became spooked and ran off into the woods. It was twilight and with the ice unsafe, it was obvious that the coyotes were going to return after dark and finish off the deer. Such is the natural order of things. All species, humans included, will do what is necessary to survive.

RonL

 

[Egon]

I grew up on a farm in central Alberta. There were coyotes around. Never were there any reports of cattle being taken but sheep, goats, turkeys, geese, and chickens were fair game. Of course Horned owls and hawks would also take poultry and turkeys and geese. A horned owl wa capable of killing a 35# turkey, eating till it was full and then carrying off the remains.
Dog packs formed infequently but Mr. Winchester seemed to decimate them as fast as they formed.
About 10 years ago several small children were attacked by coyotes [ or coydogs? ] in Jasper, Alberta. These attacks are confirmable as this town is in a national park and were investigated by the wardens.
Just experiences from my small narrow world.

Egon

 

[EdKing]

<font color=blue>Frankly I think your neighbor is justifying his viewpoint. I do not believe it or him entirely.</font color=blue>

Tres Crows, if you knew my neighbor, you wouldn't even suggest he might be not entirely truthful with his claims about the coyotes. In fact your above statement would be considered "fighting words" if any of my other neighbors read it. This neighbor is in his late 60's, and has been farming in the area all his life. He grew up in the generation where his word was his bond, he is not one to "make something up" to support his view. He has also had the local game wardens and naturualists in to investigate what was killing his lambs.

<font color=blue>I suspect the so called coyotes are actually dogs</font color=blue>

We also keep a close watch for stray/feral dogs in my area as well. Any dogs caught chasing livestock or deer are shot on sight. There is no evidence in our area of feral dog packs, and with the amount of hunting, if they were out there, they would be found.

Coyotes in my area average 30 to 40 pounds for females, 40 to 50 pounds for males. I believe the Kansas area has western coyotes, which are smaller than eastern coyotes. As far as a 40 pound coyote being like a large "kitty cat" , you obviously don't have much experience with wild canines and what they are capable of.

 

[cowboydoc]

Well then be frank Tres Crow. First if we're going to separate myth from fact let's talk about anyone that has some real experience working with cattle and living out where there are only cattle and wild animals. To make your assertion that those of us that have seen coyotes take calves are wrong you must first of all have some firsthand experience. I can tell you that it is certainly not urban legend about coyotes killing calves. While I cannot comment about the midwest I can say for fact I have witnessed, tracked, and killed coyotes that were in fact trying to take down calves or a cow that was having a breech birth or other complications. During calving we were never without a rifle and a handgun when we checked calves. As far as tracks from kills yes they certainly can be confirmed as to what killed the animal. Noone jumps to conclusions. We want to know exactly why that cow or calf died. If it was from disease, mountain lion, coyote, etc. We don't jump to conclusions. That's your living dead there on the ground and the way ranching is these days you need to know exactly why that cow or calf died. We have sat out with infrared scopes at night, WITH THE IDAHO FISH AND GAME DEPT., and killed as many as 25 coyotes in a night that were stalking cattle. Once the calves get bigger they don't bother them near as much but around calving time they go into a frenzy. Probably from all of the blood and such from birthing. Also when we get droughts and the deer population, rabbits, ground squirrels, etc. go to our irrigated fields and the coyotes, cougars, bobcat, etc. follow them. That's why you get such a high concentration of them in the west.

Just be careful about who you say is not telling the truth especially when you have no real life experience with it. Those of us that either live it or have lived it know that statistics and someone's opinion has very little if anything to do with the real world. That goes for everything, books and real life are usually two totally different scenarios many times regardless of the statistics.