where are the coyotes?

cp1969 · Aug 3, 2002

Don't forget that many people here have spent a considerable amount of time outdoors and are relaying their actual experiences.

Just as you are incredulous that your experience differs wildly from others, so are they(we?) of yours. All I can offer is what I have seen, which is in stark contrast with the picture you paint of coyotes. What can we make of this? Provided everyone is telling the truth, then the only conclusion I can come to is that the behavior of coyotes is not universal throughout their territory. As I said in an earlier post, the only time I see them in a 'pack' is in mating season. The rest of the year they are, for all practical purposes, solitary animals, notwithstanding the occasional female with young.

I am only sharing my personal experience, not that of others. I have had many people from the same area in which I live tell me that coyotes are voracious predators of livestock. I have not found that to be true, and that conclusion came from spending time in the country, not reading it from books or hearing it from someone who's simply repeating what he heard from someone else.

I'm not saying your experience isn't true--all I'm saying is that it is definitely not the way I have found coyotes to behave in my neck of the woods.

EdKing · Aug 3, 2002

I have not found that to be true, and that conclusion came from spending time in the country

Spending time in the country, and actually living in the country are 2 completly different things. Being out in the field at 2:00 am helping with a difficult birth, and seeing the eyes glowing back at you as they circle around tells a completly different story. Things may be a lot different in Kansas, but here in rural SouthWest Pa, the coyotes are taking pets and livestock. As long as they continue to do this, I will continue to hunt and kill as many of them as I can.

RanchMan · Aug 3, 2002

cp1969-

I'm not saying your experience isn't true--all I'm saying is that it is definitely not the way I have found coyotes to behave in my neck of the woods. 

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Er, uh, no - that's not what started the issue. What started the issue is that a couple of individuals either implied someone was a liar or stated it outright.

Now, in the interest of disclosure, I've stated someone was a liar too on TBN. "Called it as I saw it," you could say. 'Course the incident I’m referring to was on a very heated thread where I believed (and still do) that the original poster's motivations were dishonorable and they were just trying to "pick a fight."

So, you could say I don't necessarily see calling someone's bluff as a bad thing, but, that being said, the circumstances of my "calling out" were entirely different from this thread. I've seen nothing "dishonorable" or mean-spirited from those who claim that some coyotes can and do attack livestock.

Don't forget that many people here have spent a considerable amount of time outdoors and are relaying their actual experiences.

Just 'cause your eyes haven't witnessed it doesn't mean it never happens "in your neck of the woods." Although an eyewitness certainly helps, it is not required to convict in the courts, so why is it here? Quite frankly I find those who absolutely refuse to believe that a coyote could kill anything like a deer/calf/etc. the ones coming across poorly, not the folks who have witnessed it with their own eyes.

There seems to be 2 sides in play, (1) Coyotes don't attack/eat "big game" and (2) Coyotes can/do attack/eat "big game". Just because someone has spent a lot of time "outside" and they fall in to “group 1" doesn't negate the testimony of those in “group 2.”

If it were a murder trial, you could pull in 1000 people who would say "I didn't see him kill the guy. Yea, I wasn't there at the time in question, I was in a different area of town and I've seen the suspect not kill other people, so I don't think he is the type. No, he could never do it."

Would 1000 people making a statement like the one above negate, say, the other 5 witnesses who were there @ the "right time" and did see it? Nope. (And we have "eyewitness testimony" here on this thread, not just "here say.") I think that the "non believers" on this thread are failing to follow the "reasonable doubt" guideline - I just hope they don't do this when it comes to human perps and trials. /w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif

I understand the whole “seeing is believing.” thing, but seeing is not required. The way I look at it, if someone refuses to believe a coyote is capable and does take “large game,” (dependent on the circumstances), and they want to stay “logically sound”, they must state that every “eyewitness” on this thread who saw such an attack is either (a) unable to distinguish the difference between a coyote & other animals (such as a dog) OR (b) they are a liar. Simple as that.

For the record, I'll state that based on testimony presented here, discussions with my state's wildlife biologist, reading/books, and personal experience, I do indeed believe Cowboydoc & EdKing. Do I think every coyote is a "bloodthirsty killer" - uh, no. I believe that their actions are based on a lot of factors, the biggest of which is ease of obtaining food. I suspect, like most animals, coyotes are lazy and want the easiest & "most hearty" meal available. Newborn, sick, weak, or "trapped" livestock seem to be pretty easy targets to me.

Ozarker · Aug 3, 2002

Wow. Just when the conversation go to what wild animals will or will not attack, along comes this news story from our northern neighbor.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://news1.iwon.com/odd/article/id/257037|oddlyenough|08-03-2002::09:01|reuters.html>Man Recovers After Battling, Killing Cougar</A>

Apparently Cougars have no problem attacking whatever they want.

TresCrows · Aug 3, 2002

Now, exactly why do you shoot dogs that chase deer? I want my dogs to chase the ruinous deer of my property and woe unto he who shoots at them, it would likely be their last shot.
You guys are not the only people who "grew up or live in the country". I remain highly skeptical of the behavoirs described but I do believe coyotes may well take a sickly or lost calf or lamb. So many of these things just do not pan out when investigated but of course many things are possible. As to the neighbor, he may well believe with all his heart what he says and be as honest as can be but people see what they want to see, like I said, I doubt coyotes have a noticeable impact on the bottom line. Just because someone finds some coyotes feeding off a dead lamb does not mean they killed it.
I suspect the coyotes wish something would cut down the human population just a bit also, maybe in some feeble way they see one less "Burger" on hooves as one less human at McDonalds.
Next we will be blaming coyotes for crop circles and cattle mutilations and global warming.
I don't believe in killing things for the fun of it, for sport hunting yes if the critter is for food, for pelts/trophies maybe under some conditions, for protection of course, for an already dead lamb that coyotes are feeding off of --no. I have seen people just shoot animals for no reason and leave them suffering, I don't think God is going to be a happy camper when they come knocking on his door. J

TresCrows · Aug 3, 2002

I will be frank then, do the coyotes taking the sickly calves and breached births etc have a significant impact on the bottom line of a cattle ranch? What would be a significant impact? or--is this --hey guys--let's get some guns and go shoot at stuff kind of thing? I have seen exactly this as I know human nature better apparently than I do a coyotes. If you are protecting your lively hood and these coyotes are endangering it and other reasonable means have been taken then I believe your honest statement and your honest right to protect your property--lock and load.
What is the global impact of cattle ranching anyway, the methane produced as a greenhouse gas, the acerage required for their habitat and feeding etc, cattle ranching is environmentaly expensive. Is a Quarter Pounder more important than having a few wild things left in our lives to wonder over and yes--even spin--urban legends about. When the last coyote is hunted down and killed will we be better for it, the crows say no. J

Scott_in_WVA · Aug 3, 2002

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Now, exactly why do you shoot dogs that chase deer? I want my dogs to chase the ruinous deer of my property

<hr></blockquote>


Lets not get confused the difference between a dog running a deer out of the back yard versus a dog or dogs chasing a deer for so long and so far the deer cannot run anymore.I have seen a deer that was so tired from being run by dogs that it wobbled on its tired legs/collapsed into a field and you walk right up to it and touch it.Darn right I would dust a dog for that.....

RanchMan · Aug 3, 2002

I find your attitude toward those who are providers of food so that you and your family doesn't have to "toil in the fields" both malicious and insolent.

Farmers & ranchers take a HUGE risk to continue in their livelihood for very little profit. Let's be honest - it's hard, dirty, and thin margin work. By your statement on "significant impact", it is obvious you have no idea of what goes in to ranching/farming and how little money there is in it. I believe you've seen too many Westerns about "cattle barons."

As far as the environment, /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif well, that's a WHOLE other topic. Suffice to say, I seriously doubt coyotes are on the verge of extinction as you imply. I find it ironic you want to save the "wild" coyote from all those evil/blood thirsty people, while at the same time you can't stand those "wild" deer by saying, "I really wish some of them coyotes would come eat some of these deer I have eating my trees, eating up the forests, wrecking havoc upon all that is green. " Sounds like you're disheartened about the deer eating your flowers & shrubbery 'round the house (aggravating, but hardly a "livelihood" issue.) Hmmm, /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif, can we say "double standard?"

I also assume based on your dissatisfaction with the cattle industry, you must be a vegetarian. (e.g. cattle = environmental destruction, environmental destruction = evil/bad, ergo cattle = evil/bad) Too bad that farmers have all those nasty fields where they grow crops!!! Think of ALL THAT LAND they SCREWED UP!!! They must be bad/evil folks too (all those chemicals they use - I mean, how "significant the impact" can a few grasshoppers be!!!)

No sir, I think you are way off base. Of course, if you grow your own food (Plants, and chemical free at that) and you see no problem with price of a "Big Mac" going to $18 due to lack of available bovine, then I guess there is no hypocrisy in your statements.

Von · Aug 3, 2002

I have been reading this whole thread and figured it was time to chime in. I am by no way an expert on coyotes, but i do know more about them than most. I hold a BS degree in Biology with a minor in enviromental science. I have studied coyotes in school and have been hunting them for over 20 yrs. and guiding hunts for over 5 yrs. First there is a big difference between western and eastern coyotes. Both in size (eastern are much larger) and in life style. While the western coyote is more solitary and a lone hunter, its not unusual to call 2-4 in at once, but thats just because they are hungry. But back here in the east I have called in up to 7 at once or the main hunting pack. I have seen coyotes pull calfs out of birthing mothers! talk about giving a helping hand. And I have seen them work together to seperate the fawns from the doe. And you will not thin them out by shooting them. They will have larger litters in the next spring to make up for any losses to the pack. Near my home I have been shooting them for 12 years and can't seem to put a dent in the #'s. We have hardly any rabbits or pheasents anymore, mostly from the coyotes and fox. If anyone has any questions I would be glad to try to help answer them. And if you don't think they bring down deer, check out this photo attached!

cp1969 · Aug 3, 2002

Ed King said, "....Spending time in the country, and actually living in the country are 2 completly different things..."

This is what I get for a poor choice of words. My 'time spent in the country' was LIVING in the country, RAISING and TAKING CARE Of both my own and other people's livestock, and HUNTING and TRAPPING coyotes.

As I said, about the only conclusion that will be reached in this discussion is that coyotes' behavior apparently varies considerably with geographic location.

Scott_in_WVA · Aug 3, 2002

Thanks Von..../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

cp1969 · Aug 3, 2002

RanchMan, you're asking me to prove innocence, when it should be incumbent upon those accusing the defendant to prove that he is guilty.

I tried to prove the coyote guilty of attacking livestock and was unable; therefore I reached the conclusion he was innocent (at least in my neck o' the woods).

EdKing · Aug 3, 2002

By looking at your profile, and by your "poor choice of words" I assumed you merely "spent time in the country". I appologize for my poor assumption, but stand by my statements about coyotes taking livestock.

TresCrows · Aug 3, 2002

Do you have any of coyotes making crop circles too?
If farmers toil in the field it is by their choice just as my choices leave me no room to complain. If a few cows lost to coyotes is going to bring down a farmer and Western Civilization we are in big trouble, it comes with the territory. As to exticntion, grand statements were made about the Passenger Pigeon too and a few other things that are now gone along the way. Extinction can occur in one generation.
Oh, Hades, let's just kill eveything, plow eveything over and chop everything remaining down all for a few cents.
Lot's of talk but no numbers that really indicate that predatory animals are wiping out farmers, the banks and drought are doing that without any help from a few scrawny coyotes.
--and of course we have studies that show the lower amounts of pheasent and rabbits and whatnot are the direct result of coyotes--I wonder if it might not have something to do with people on tractors destroying habitat so they can build their houses on 5 acre plots---I am guilty, don't shoot.
Poor deer, between the coyotes eating them, the dogs chasing them and the hunters shooting them and now CWD, what is a buck to do, oh, well, I guess he can come eat all my trees.
J, the guy you love to hate but skeptical nonetheless

beenthere · Aug 3, 2002

Now Mosey, this has been a very interesting thread. Seems to follow the different viewpoints I have heard about coyotes from people (hunters, farmers, city folk, etc.) for the past 40+ years (that I cared). I do enjoy the different opinions, recollections, and experiences. I get bothered by the 'heated' parts of the discussions. Please, lets stay cool, even though we don't agree with everything someone else says. I am sure each one feels they know what they are talking about. But in a way, that seems to parallel the coyote, that is so very unpredictable in my opinion, and adaptable to many, many situations. They seem to be able to live right under our noses and close to our homes, and we don't (for the most part) even know they are there.
Lets be cool, okay?

EdKing · Aug 3, 2002

I want my dogs to chase the ruinous deer of my property and woe unto he who shoots at them, it would likely be their last shot.

Ahhh, I see. If it is your plants or your dogs, it is okay to harrass/hunt wildlife. But if it is someone elses livestock, you call them a liar, or cruel killers of poor defenceless animals.

Around here if you had your dogs chasing deer, and the Game Commission found out about it, you would be paying some heavy fines. Dogs, at least domestic ones, will run down and kill animals just because of thier hunting instinct.

My neighbor has shot coyotes in the act of killing lambs, not feeding on the dead bodies. By the way, my neighbor worked a full time job as well as his farm, to make ends meet. I wonder how this country will fare when all the farmers are driven out of business do to lack of income? Even the loss of a few animals hurts the smaller farmers, the losses my neighbor was suffering were a big hit on him financilly.

As far as coyotes taking wild game, like rabbits, deer, mice, etc., I feel more power to them. I can live with not getting as much game when I hunt, but keep them away from my animals.

RanchMan · Aug 3, 2002

cp1969-

RanchMan, you're asking me to prove innocence, when it should be incumbent upon those accusing the defendant to prove that he is guilty.

What are you talking about??? Never did any such thing - All I said is that just because you haven't witnessed something, doesn't mean it can't or didn't happen. How is that "requiring you" to prove innocence??? A lack of seeing something when you weren't even around during the times in question is not evidence.

If you go back and read what I typed carefully, you'd see I never made any such implication. Since you fancy yourself a "judge" and have apparently appointed me "lead prosecutor", let's look at the facts:

(1) MULTIPLE eyewitnesses who have actually seen the act of a coyote killing livestock on multiple occasions.

2) A photograph of a coyote attacking a deer.

3) A study (disection) of over 8,000 coyote stomachs where the content contained livestock/deer

4) Personal conversations with "experts" (i.e. wildlife biologists) who say that coyotes can and do attack livestock/deer.

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Hmmm - seems to me a preponderance of the evidence illustrates that coyotes are indeed capable and, indeed have (and most likely will continue) to feed on livestock/large game under certain specific conditions. (re-read my post and you'll see the specific conditions I believe impact this.)

Would you "vote guilty" for an individual on trial where you had multiple witnesses, photographic evidence, autopsy evidence and expert testimony? Or would you set them free to "walk the streets?" /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Just because the suspect had his mom or buddies testify that "he was a good guy" doesn't make him innocent as you imply and just because he doesn't kill every night doesn't make him less of a killer.

Nope, never asked you to prove innocence - just asked for you to look at the evidence and use applicable information instead of "character witness" psycho-babble.

I also fail to understand how you "...tried to prove..." the coyote's "guilt." Maybe I missed something, but I never saw you "testify" as to what actions you took in this "attempt." Seems to me that those with the opposite experiences of yours have offered real, hard, physical evidence. Can’t say you have done that. I'd be interested in knowing what you claim "proved" that a coyote would never behave "badly" it in your locale. Again, not seeing something doesn't prove innocense, so I fail to see how you could arrive at such a conclusion in "good faith."

TresCrows · Aug 4, 2002

OK, let's see, deer are more important than dogs and people, coyotes are public enemy number one and farmers are the unsung heros and the Game Commision in their great wisdom is the protector of Democracy against the evil coyotes and Fido. Cows are more important than anything else. Ooookyyyy, when the coyotes are all gone and the vermin overun everything then what? No answer needed.
Farming is tough, life is hard for most people, not just farmers. No one is forcing them against their will. They do it because they love it or have no choice, same as everyone else.
The fact remains that coyotes, mountain lions, reintroduced wolves, have very little REAL impact on the viablity of ranching or farming in the long run.
It is a big world out there, I figured out a long time ago not everyone agrees with me, perhaps that lesson is overdue for a few of you guys, don't let it get you so steamed.
Cheerio, off to bigger and better things. J

cowboydoc · Aug 4, 2002

"What is the global impact of cattle ranching anyway, the methane produced as a greenhouse gas, the acerage required for their habitat and feeding etc, cattle ranching is environmentaly expensive"

Now you are showing your ignorance Tres Crow. I'm not saying you're ignorant but you are considerably misinformed about cattle ranching. Every single cow or calf is the bottom line. Cattle ranching is probably the most environmentally advantageous business that there is. The west was pretty much a dessert before farming and ranching came to the area. The farmers and ranchers made the land habitable and profitable and took care of it. Where there was nothing but sagebrush there is now grass and crops. Where there was nothing but washouts and canyons there is now soil conservation and erosion control. Ranchers are constantly trying to make the land better so they can raise better cattle and make the land produce better. With regard to methane gas it doesn't hold a candle to the cars that you drive.

It's futile to really even argue it though as people with your attitude never do see the good that farming and ranching do for this country. Just plain makes me sick that people that work 12-18 hours a day seven days a week and 365 days a year that they get belittled like your post.

RanchMan · Aug 4, 2002

TresCrows -

OK, let's see, deer are more important than dogs and people, coyotes are public enemy number one and farmers are the unsung heros and the Game Commision in their great wisdom is the protector of Democracy against the evil coyotes and Fido

Wow! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif What an arrogant and inaccurate interpretation of all the points made in this thread.

Farming is tough, life is hard for most people, not just farmers. 

Give me a break. You obviously have no clue what goes in to farming/ranching. Boo Hoo! Life is SO TOUGH for all of us that sit behind a desk or punch a clock. Remember that most farmers/ranchers are self-employed and don't rely on "the man" for a pay check. If you are an accountant, a mechanic, a chef, whatever, there are lots of other employers out there if you decide to "look elsewhere." You own/run a farm/ranch? Well, you screw up, you can loose it all - Poof! That's it. Ever stop to understand as to why the "family farm" is disappearing? Perhaps, perhaps not - 'course you really could care less I suspect.

Why not trade YOUR job to run a farm/ranch if it is SOOOOO easy and SOOOO profitable? Huh??? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Yea, I thought so......

They do it because they love it or have no choice, same as everyone else.

Yea, I suppose you're right. Don't be grateful that someone out there has the guts to take a risk with their livelihood and get little pay to do it. What about "Joe Policeman"? Or "Joe Fireman"? Naw, they shouldn't deserve any respect either I suppose, huh? /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif Oh, BTW, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, working in agriculture is more than twice as dangerous as being a police officer (based on fatality rates.)

The fact remains that coyotes, mountain lions, reintroduced wolves, have very little REAL impact on the viability of ranching or farming in the long run. 

How would you know? You run the books for a farming/ranching operation? How would you have any CLUE as to what the "real" impacts are for an individual farmer/rancher? Just 'cause someone owns a couple of acres and a tractor (or 2) does not make them an expert in everything agricultural. Ahhh, another "self anointed expert" in something of which he has no knowledge of. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif

It is a big world out there, I figured out a long time ago not everyone agrees with me, perhaps that lesson is overdue for a few of you guys, don't let it get you so steamed. 

Perhaps it's because you speak of things of which you have no direct knowledge of and call those who do have real and direct knowledge liars or idiots. Hmmm, and you wonder why people get irked?

Cheerio, off to bigger and better things.

I'd slither out too if I couldn't address anyone's points with anything other than made-up knowledge and insults.