where are the coyotes?

[cp1969]

Don't forget that many people here have spent a considerable amount of time outdoors and are relaying their actual experiences.

Just as you are incredulous that your experience differs wildly from others, so are they(we?) of yours. All I can offer is what I have seen, which is in stark contrast with the picture you paint of coyotes. What can we make of this? Provided everyone is telling the truth, then the only conclusion I can come to is that the behavior of coyotes is not universal throughout their territory. As I said in an earlier post, the only time I see them in a 'pack' is in mating season. The rest of the year they are, for all practical purposes, solitary animals, notwithstanding the occasional female with young.

I am only sharing my personal experience, not that of others. I have had many people from the same area in which I live tell me that coyotes are voracious predators of livestock. I have not found that to be true, and that conclusion came from spending time in the country, not reading it from books or hearing it from someone who's simply repeating what he heard from someone else.

I'm not saying your experience isn't true--all I'm saying is that it is definitely not the way I have found coyotes to behave in my neck of the woods.

 

[RanchMan]

cp1969-

<font color=blue>I'm not saying your experience isn't true--all I'm saying is that it is definitely not the way I have found coyotes to behave in my neck of the woods. </font color=blue>

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Er, uh, no - that's not what started the issue. What started the issue is that a couple of individuals either implied someone was a liar or stated it outright.

Now, in the interest of disclosure, I've stated someone was a liar too on TBN. "Called it as I saw it," you could say. 'Course the incident I’m referring to was on a very heated thread where I believed (and still do) that the original poster's motivations were dishonorable and they were just trying to "pick a fight."

So, you could say I don't necessarily see calling someone's bluff as a bad thing, but, that being said, the circumstances of my "calling out" were entirely different from this thread. I've seen nothing "dishonorable" or mean-spirited from those who claim that some coyotes can and do attack livestock.

<font color=blue>Don't forget that many people here have spent a considerable amount of time outdoors and are relaying their actual experiences.</font color=blue>

Just 'cause your eyes haven't witnessed it doesn't mean it never happens "in your neck of the woods." Although an eyewitness certainly helps, it is not required to convict in the courts, so why is it here? Quite frankly I find those who absolutely refuse to believe that a coyote could kill anything like a deer/calf/etc. the ones coming across poorly, not the folks who have witnessed it with their own eyes.

There seems to be 2 sides in play, (1) Coyotes don't attack/eat "big game" and (2) Coyotes can/do attack/eat "big game". Just because someone has spent a lot of time "outside" and they fall in to “group 1" doesn't negate the testimony of those in “group 2.”

If it were a murder trial, you could pull in 1000 people who would say "I didn't see him kill the guy. Yea, I wasn't there at the time in question, I was in a different area of town and I've seen the suspect not kill other people, so I don't think he is the type. No, he could never do it."

Would 1000 people making a statement like the one above negate, say, the other 5 witnesses who were there @ the "right time" and did see it? Nope. (And we have "eyewitness testimony" here on this thread, not just "here say.") I think that the "non believers" on this thread are failing to follow the "reasonable doubt" guideline - I just hope they don't do this when it comes to human perps and trials. /w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif

I understand the whole “seeing is believing.” thing, but seeing is not required. The way I look at it, if someone refuses to believe a coyote is capable and does take “large game,” (dependent on the circumstances), and they want to stay “logically sound”, they must state that every “eyewitness” on this thread who saw such an attack is either (a) unable to distinguish the difference between a coyote & other animals (such as a dog) OR (b) they are a liar. Simple as that.

For the record, I'll state that based on testimony presented here, discussions with my state's wildlife biologist, reading/books, and personal experience, I do indeed believe Cowboydoc & EdKing. Do I think every coyote is a "bloodthirsty killer" - uh, no. I believe that their actions are based on a lot of factors, the biggest of which is ease of obtaining food. I suspect, like most animals, coyotes are lazy and want the easiest & "most hearty" meal available. Newborn, sick, weak, or "trapped" livestock seem to be pretty easy targets to me.

 

[RanchMan]

I find your attitude toward those who are providers of food so that you and your family doesn't have to "toil in the fields" both malicious and insolent.

Farmers & ranchers take a HUGE risk to continue in their livelihood for very little profit. Let's be honest - it's hard, dirty, and thin margin work. By your statement on "significant impact", it is obvious you have no idea of what goes in to ranching/farming and how little money there is in it. I believe you've seen too many Westerns about "cattle barons."

As far as the environment, /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif well, that's a WHOLE other topic. Suffice to say, I seriously doubt coyotes are on the verge of extinction as you imply. I find it ironic you want to save the "wild" coyote from all those evil/blood thirsty people, while at the same time you can't stand those "wild" deer by saying, <font color=blue>"I really wish some of them coyotes would come eat some of these deer I have eating my trees, eating up the forests, wrecking havoc upon all that is green. "</font color=blue> Sounds like you're disheartened about the deer eating your flowers & shrubbery 'round the house (aggravating, but hardly a "livelihood" issue.) Hmmm, /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif, can we say "double standard?"

I also assume based on your dissatisfaction with the cattle industry, you must be a vegetarian. (e.g. cattle = environmental destruction, environmental destruction = evil/bad, ergo cattle = evil/bad) Too bad that farmers have all those nasty fields where they grow crops!!! Think of ALL THAT LAND they SCREWED UP!!! They must be bad/evil folks too (all those chemicals they use - I mean, how "significant the impact" can a few grasshoppers be!!!)

No sir, I think you are way off base. Of course, if you grow your own food (Plants, and chemical free at that) and you see no problem with price of a "Big Mac" going to $18 due to lack of available bovine, then I guess there is no hypocrisy in your statements.

 

[cp1969]

Ed King said, "....Spending time in the country, and actually living in the country are 2 completly different things..."

This is what I get for a poor choice of words. My 'time spent in the country' was LIVING in the country, RAISING and TAKING CARE Of both my own and other people's livestock, and HUNTING and TRAPPING coyotes.

As I said, about the only conclusion that will be reached in this discussion is that coyotes' behavior apparently varies considerably with geographic location.

 

[Scott_in_WVA]

Thanks Von..../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[cp1969]

RanchMan, you're asking me to prove innocence, when it should be incumbent upon those accusing the defendant to prove that he is guilty.

I tried to prove the coyote guilty of attacking livestock and was unable; therefore I reached the conclusion he was innocent (at least in my neck o' the woods).

 

[EdKing]

By looking at your profile, and by your "poor choice of words" I assumed you merely "spent time in the country". I appologize for my poor assumption, but stand by my statements about coyotes taking livestock.

 

[beenthere]

Now Mosey, this has been a very interesting thread. Seems to follow the different viewpoints I have heard about coyotes from people (hunters, farmers, city folk, etc.) for the past 40+ years (that I cared). I do enjoy the different opinions, recollections, and experiences. I get bothered by the 'heated' parts of the discussions. Please, lets stay cool, even though we don't agree with everything someone else says. I am sure each one feels they know what they are talking about. But in a way, that seems to parallel the coyote, that is so very unpredictable in my opinion, and adaptable to many, many situations. They seem to be able to live right under our noses and close to our homes, and we don't (for the most part) even know they are there.
Lets be cool, okay?

 

[TresCrows]

OK, let's see, deer are more important than dogs and people, coyotes are public enemy number one and farmers are the unsung heros and the Game Commision in their great wisdom is the protector of Democracy against the evil coyotes and Fido. Cows are more important than anything else. Ooookyyyy, when the coyotes are all gone and the vermin overun everything then what? No answer needed.
Farming is tough, life is hard for most people, not just farmers. No one is forcing them against their will. They do it because they love it or have no choice, same as everyone else.
The fact remains that coyotes, mountain lions, reintroduced wolves, have very little REAL impact on the viablity of ranching or farming in the long run.
It is a big world out there, I figured out a long time ago not everyone agrees with me, perhaps that lesson is overdue for a few of you guys, don't let it get you so steamed.
Cheerio, off to bigger and better things. J

 

[cowboydoc]

"What is the global impact of cattle ranching anyway, the methane produced as a greenhouse gas, the acerage required for their habitat and feeding etc, cattle ranching is environmentaly expensive"

Now you are showing your ignorance Tres Crow. I'm not saying you're ignorant but you are considerably misinformed about cattle ranching. Every single cow or calf is the bottom line. Cattle ranching is probably the most environmentally advantageous business that there is. The west was pretty much a dessert before farming and ranching came to the area. The farmers and ranchers made the land habitable and profitable and took care of it. Where there was nothing but sagebrush there is now grass and crops. Where there was nothing but washouts and canyons there is now soil conservation and erosion control. Ranchers are constantly trying to make the land better so they can raise better cattle and make the land produce better. With regard to methane gas it doesn't hold a candle to the cars that you drive.

It's futile to really even argue it though as people with your attitude never do see the good that farming and ranching do for this country. Just plain makes me sick that people that work 12-18 hours a day seven days a week and 365 days a year that they get belittled like your post.

 

[RanchMan]

TresCrows -

<font color=blue>OK, let's see, deer are more important than dogs and people, coyotes are public enemy number one and farmers are the unsung heros and the Game Commision in their great wisdom is the protector of Democracy against the evil coyotes and Fido</font color=blue>

Wow! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif What an arrogant and inaccurate interpretation of all the points made in this thread.

<font color=blue>Farming is tough, life is hard for most people, not just farmers. </font color=blue>

Give me a break. You obviously have no clue what goes in to farming/ranching. Boo Hoo! Life is SO TOUGH for all of us that sit behind a desk or punch a clock. Remember that most farmers/ranchers are self-employed and don't rely on "the man" for a pay check. If you are an accountant, a mechanic, a chef, whatever, there are lots of other employers out there if you decide to "look elsewhere." You own/run a farm/ranch? Well, you screw up, you can loose it all - Poof! That's it. Ever stop to understand as to why the "family farm" is disappearing? Perhaps, perhaps not - 'course you really could care less I suspect.

Why not trade YOUR job to run a farm/ranch if it is SOOOOO easy and SOOOO profitable? Huh??? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Yea, I thought so......

<font color=blue>They do it because they love it or have no choice, same as everyone else.</font color=blue>

Yea, I suppose you're right. Don't be grateful that someone out there has the guts to take a risk with their livelihood and get little pay to do it. What about "Joe Policeman"? Or "Joe Fireman"? Naw, they shouldn't deserve any respect either I suppose, huh? /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif Oh, BTW, according to the U.S. Department of Labor, working in agriculture is more than twice as dangerous as being a police officer (based on fatality rates.)

<font color=blue>The fact remains that coyotes, mountain lions, reintroduced wolves, have very little REAL impact on the viability of ranching or farming in the long run. </font color=blue>

How would you know? You run the books for a farming/ranching operation? How would you have any CLUE as to what the "real" impacts are for an individual farmer/rancher? Just 'cause someone owns a couple of acres and a tractor (or 2) does not make them an expert in everything agricultural. Ahhh, another "self anointed expert" in something of which he has no knowledge of. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif

<font color=blue>It is a big world out there, I figured out a long time ago not everyone agrees with me, perhaps that lesson is overdue for a few of you guys, don't let it get you so steamed. </font color=blue>

Perhaps it's because you speak of things of which you have no direct knowledge of and call those who do have real and direct knowledge liars or idiots. Hmmm, and you wonder why people get irked?

<font color=blue>Cheerio, off to bigger and better things.</font color=blue>

I'd slither out too if I couldn't address anyone's points with anything other than made-up knowledge and insults.