where are the coyotes?

EdKing · Aug 4, 2002

Richard, It makes me wonder where the food will come from and how much we will have to pay for it if all the family owned/operated ranchers and farmers are driven out of business. What most of these people don't understand, is a ready and aboundant supply of food is what allows civilization to exist and expand. I guess we could all go back to being hunter/gatherers and killing each other for the meager resources available.

EdKing · Aug 4, 2002

I'd slither out too if I couldn't address anyone's points with anything other than made-up knowledge and insults. 

Bravo, Ranchman, I couldn't have said it better.

Egon · Aug 4, 2002

Beenthere:

I too have enjoyed this thread as it has expanded my knowledge base. Maybe a little hard on the ego when you realize your ideas were not complete but bringing them up to date compensates.
Egon

TresCrows · Aug 4, 2002

OK, Purple guy and cowboy, again, neither of you have done anything but shout and arm wave and bully. I don't agree with you.I think you should leave the wild things wild until there is real impact on your buisness which you have not shown that there is.
Your inability to maintain a level head indicates your true nature--hey boy's, lets get some guns and go shoot at stuff--yeeha.
J

cowboydoc · Aug 4, 2002

It does impact Tres Crow. Why do you think that the Fish and Game will allow a wolf to be killed after they have spent so much to reintroduce them if they are caught killing a calf? The reason is because one wolf will decimate a calf population. It is real and farmers try very hard to maintain a balance with nature and with getting food to your table.

Like Ranchman said it's not just farmers and ranchers but anyone that goes out beyond a 9-5, 4 weeks of vacation, holidays off, retirement, etc. etc. I have respect for anyone that goes above the call. Teachers, fireman, policeman, etc.

I still fail to see why you have no respect or consideration when you have been told not only by those of us that do or have done this for a living but by Von himself. A hunter, biologist, and NOT a rancher or farmer. You had a completely unbiased person tell you that it is a real threat and happens. He told you that he himself saw a breech calf being taken. He gave you a picture of a deer being taken by a coyote.

Just something to think about tres crow. You work for another person or company. How about this. The next time that you get your paycheck how would you feel if there was $600- $1000 taken out of it. Let's say that the company had a bad month and all of the empolyees have to pay for it. Well that's what happens when you say those calves don't matter that get taken. That comes right off of the ranchers bottom line each time a calf is taken. Double that if a good cow is taken.

You have no idea what you are talking about and yet you keep making accusations and assumptions about what it is really like. It just amazes me that people can be so closed minded and disrespectful. I guess we shouldn't wonder about why all the crimes in this world have happened and why kids have no respect for themselves or anything else. I know you'll just come back with some snide remarks but at least someone that's really interested about the way things are may get some good out of this thread.

cp1969 · Aug 4, 2002

I don't know how I could construe your carefully chosen words any other way. When you say "just because you didn't see it happen doesn't mean it didn't happen" is exactly that--it is asking me to take someone else's word that an event occurred.

When I say I tried to prove the coyote's guilt, this is what I mean: I heard for years during my youth from various people who believed it to be true, that coyotes were predators of livestock. I had no reason to believe otherwise but when I became old enough to hunt and trap, I never saw this happen, nor did I see evidence that it did (coyote tracks around a carcass doesn't prove the coyote did the killing, nor does it prove it didn't). When I continued to hear this, I would probe a little deeper, as to whether they'd seen it personally. Not once did I find a person who claimed he'd actually seen it, except from persons who were in my opinion blowhards or known liars (e.g., from the guy who claimed to have served in Vietnam, but was never in the Army). As much time as I've spent around livestock and hunting, I have to believe that for it be common knowledge among people who claim it to be true, that I would have at least had an opportunity to see it for myself. It has yet to happen. In fact, many times I have seen coyotes walk through a pasture filled with cows and calves and they won't even stop grazing, let alone make an attempt to get away from what is supposedly their predator. The coyotes seem oblivious to the cattle as well. I don't know what other conclusion I could reach--I've spent as much time as most, and way more than some people around livestock and coyotes and I've seen them in contact with each other and have never seen any interaction at all. And you expect me to disregard that body of evidence and accept on someone's internet say-so that coyotes' behavior as an entire group is to routinely prey on livestock? Sorry--ain't gonna happen. I'm willing to believe that coyote behavior could very well be different where you live, but don't try to tell me that's how they are around here, because they aren't.

Now, if Mr. Coyote was acutally on trial, as a juror I would probably have to put my personal experience aside and vote with the preponderance of witness testimony, if that was all that was presented, in spite of the fact that it conflicts with my own experience. But I would probably be more comfortable as a witness for the defense.

Everyone needs to try not to get so steamed up over this. If you believe that your neighborhood coyotes are a threat to your livestock herds, fine with me, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that my herd is in danger. Maybe you ought to consider relocating to where the coyotes don't seem to prefer that table fare? I don't use the smiley faces, but if I did, I would but a wink in right here.

woodyed · Aug 4, 2002

I agree with you about not pushing any panic button on CWD. I live in Central New York State and there hasn't been to my knowledge, any animal domestic or wild, that has been diagnosed with CWD. Even if there had been, I don't think I would become very concerned, and I eat plenty of venison in a year's time. On the matter of coyotes, where I live there is an has been an explosion in the deer, turkey, rabbit, as well as the coyote populations in the last 7 or 8 years. They all co-exist and continue to increase in numbers even though the coyote is the largest predator. So the fact is, that the coyote in my opinion, observations, and regardless of their numbers, have little effect on the other game populations. I might add, that there are several large sheep operations in my area also, and I've not heard any anti-coyote talk out of them. I trap fox and coyote every year in my area, so I would hear from them if they did have coyote problems.

RanchMan · Aug 4, 2002

cp1969-

Ahhh - where to start.....

Ok, I guess I'll start with your "proof"....

In fact, many times I have seen coyotes walk through a pasture filled with cows and calves and they won't even stop grazing, let alone make an attempt to get away from what is supposedly their predator.
...
And you expect me to disregard that body of evidence and accept on someone's internet say-so that coyotes' behavior as an entire group is to routinely prey on livestock?

per my earlier posts:
Do I think every coyote is a "bloodthirsty killer" - uh, no. I believe that their actions are based on a lot of factors, the biggest of which is ease of obtaining food. I suspect, like most animals, coyotes are lazy and want the easiest & "most hearty" meal available. Newborn, sick, weak, or "trapped" livestock seem to be pretty easy targets to me.

Maybe if you would carefully read my comments the first time around, you wouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction and try and twist what I said. Seems that my belief in coyotes going after "easy targets" would fit nicely with your "real world" experience, assuming there are easier things for them to hunt in "your neck of the woods."

When you say "just because you didn't see it happen doesn't mean it didn't happen" is exactly that--it is asking me to take someone else's word that an event occurred.
...
Not once did I find a person who claimed he'd actually seen it, except from persons who were in my opinion blowhards or known liars.

per my earlier posts:
if someone refuses to believe...they must state that every “eyewitness” on this thread who saw such an attack is either (a) unable to distinguish the difference between a coyote & other animals (such as a dog) OR (b) they are a liar.

Seems pretty plain to me that you are calling all those who have posted that they've "seen it with their own eyes" outright liars (or idiots). Sorry you hold such a low opinion of those individuals. Per one of my earlier posts, I'll simply say that I do not concur with your assessment of their truthfulness.

I'm willing to believe that coyote behavior could very well be different where you live, but don't try to tell me that's how they are around here, because they aren't.

Never said it did indeed happen in your location - all I said was that you can't PROVE it didn't. I've seen plenty of known criminals NOT conduct crimes when I was around them, but that doesn't mean they were innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. Big difference. "That could NEVER happen in MY neighborhood." -- Ahhh, where have I heard these words before??? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif

as a juror I would probably have to put my personal experience aside and vote with the preponderance of witness testimony

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif So, you are basically telling me you simply can't/won't believe one of your "local" coyotes could/would attack livestock/deer unless you see it with your own eyes. Wouldn't matter if one of your local honest "Joe Citizens" told you what he saw, dissected the coyote & had its stomach contents, had a photo of the attack, and your local biologist said "It's possible." Nope, not good enough for you - after all, you have YEARS of experience NOT seeing anything. I understand...

But I would probably be more comfortable as a witness for the defense.

That doesn't surprise me. After all, it appears you are more interested in the "feeling" aspect than the "facts" presented. After all, the only "fact" I've seen anyone dispute is the eyewitness testimony (Nothing about the photo being faked, the stomach contents being falsified, the biologist info being incorrect, etc.) Yep, you'd make the type of juror a defense attorney loves - forget the facts, it's all about feeling...

Everyone needs to try not to get so steamed up over this. 

I understand your point, why would ANYONE get upset??? /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Let's see, basically between you and Trescrows, the comments/actions have been:
(a) everyone who has witnessed such activity and posted it here is a LIAR,
(b) to dismiss any evidence provided (including photos),
(c) come across as incredibly arrogant and holier-than-thou since you fellas OBVIOUSLY know more about running a farm/ranch than those who do it for their livelihood
(d) attacked the integrity of the farming/ranching profession and stated those folks wreck the environment
(e) employed double standards (Trescrows & deer)
(f) stereotyped EVERYONE who believes that a coyote is capable of attacking deer/livestock and therefore chooses to remove them as some uneducated red-neck looking for an excuse to blow something away. (/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif gosh! that sounds a lot like the argument those "Aggies do not lie, cheat, or steal, nor do they tolerate those who do." Call me what you like, but I was raised with those values and actually believe in them. To date I have not seen any evidence/motive to convince me that those who have posted their "eyewitness accounts" of coyote attacks on livestock are being dishonest. Refusal to acknowledge even the remote possibility that such an attack ***could*** occur (regardless of location) strikes me as, if not outright, at least intellectual dishonesty. (I guess, in your book at least, a pit-bull is no more predisposed to have agressive tendencies than, say a Brittany Spaniel.)

Interesting thing about it is that my first post in this thread was simply informational - links to some Parks & Wildlife info and some statistics on stomach contents, along with the comment that I had tons of coyotes on my place. I didn't jump in until YOU GUYS started attacking the integrity of the eyewitnesses - technically this isn't even my fight - I only spoke up because I hate to see those I believe as "good folks" attacked viciously and without any consideration for logical discussion.

'Course as Cowboydoc already said, this is probably a futile discussion. After all, you have the "right" to believe whatever you want - nobody can make you acknowledge anything and facts, well, you have the option to ignore them if you want to for whatever reason you make up. Nope, don't see a lot of intellectually sound "discussion" in the past few posts (all the real info has only been coming from one side.)

Pilgrim · Aug 4, 2002

I have had a close encounter of the “I’m a dead man” kind with coyotes.
Four years ago I took a solo walk across the street from my home. It’s about 10k acres owed by the Water Commission (MDC). All posted. No hunting, fishing, hiking. The locals call it “Heaven”, and it is for anything with wings, gills or 4 legs.
Now the property owners who are adjacent to it HAVE been known to wander in there every once in a while (fishing pole in hand). Which I did.
It was an overcast day and I went in without a compass (stupid), cell phone (don’t own one) or sidearm (don’t get caught with a fishin pole in there let alone a gun, $$$).
What was I talking about? Oh yea, the coyotes.
I was about a half mile in, bushwhacking through a large stand of mountain laurel. Visibility was next to nothing. That’s when I dumbed across him. He was about 10 feet in front of me. We did the obligatory “holy [censored], where did YOU come from” for about 5 seconds. At that point I’m wondering why isn’t he running? That’s when I started thinking, “why aren’t I running”. So I pulled a 180 and got my cigarette scared lungs pumping the legs.
Shot a straight line through the laurel I had just been weaving through. Now as I’m running I can hear him off to my right. He’s keeping up with me. I’m getting a look at him about 15 feet to starboard. Then I herd his buddy and got a look at him 15 feet to the port side. They weren’t even working to keep up with me. I’m thinking they’re the bread and this Irishman is the corned beef.
When I came out of the laurel I picked up a stick mid stride and saw the swamp ahead. I’m gonna take the shortest distance between two points and hit the swamp runnin. The adrenaline is pumping good and the hackles are up but my work boots filled with water and mud and it was like someone put the Jake break on. I turned to take them on, stick held over my head. I scanned the edge of the swamp but couldn’t see them. I got my breath and tried to orient myself. It was overcast so I couldn’t get a bearing from the sun. I heard a jet overhead and took my bearing from the approach path to the airport to get out of there.
I can only figure I stumbled across their den. They chased me out so far and went back to tend to their pups.
I’ve seen them piss on my mail box post , piss on my truck tire, piss in my propane tank and even piss on my house, but that is the only time I thought they were gonna piss on me.
So there you go. It was a close encounter of the weird kind.

rdln · Aug 4, 2002

big treble hook with rotting meat hung from tree with astout line about 5 feet from the ground.

drpepper · Aug 4, 2002

I have followed this thread with great interest. The orginal question was "Where have all the coyotes gone?" They are just outside my door, that's where. Hardly a night goes by that we don't hear several packs yipping to each other. When the price on pelts was high, they thinned out considerably. Now, they are thick as thieves again. I have mixed emotions on coyotes. Coyotes kill and eat my wife's barn cats. Proven fact. They also eat the cottontails. I love that. The cottontails mutilate the trees I plant. I have to put tinfoil or other wrap around them. I would dare say I have way too many rabbits. Nature is trying to combat this with increasing the coyote population. I don't go out of my way to pop a coyote. If they are around the barn, they are fair game. I have far more problems with dogs. I live too close to a town. Thru years of experience, I have learned to just pop the dog and bury it. Ask no questions. People don't want to hear that "Fluffy" is chasing your horses. We have government trappers in this country that trap the coyotes. I can't see that they are making much of a dent in the population. Maybe they haven't worked my area for awhile. Yes, I have seen coyotes take down a beautiful quarterhorse filly that my daughter loved. Coyotes will kill young livestock. My feeling is "do what you have to do." I don't actively hunt coyotes, but I don't avoid the issue either.

beenthere · Aug 4, 2002

That is interesting, and reminds me of an experience the winter before last. When I butcher my deer, I usually end up with the neck and rib cage intact, with almost all the meat cut off for sausage. I then hang the rib cage in a tree for the birds to pick at throughout the winter. By the end of the winter they have it picked pretty clean.

The winter before last, I kept finding the rib cage on the ground in the snow. Coyote tracks were all around and I would hang it back up, using a #9 wire hooked through the rib cage and the other end over a tree limb. Once I went out to hang it back up, and found a good amount of fresh blood around the area. I surmised (didn't see it) that the coyote jumped to grab the rib cage and got hooked on the #9 wire. I trailed it but didn't find anything, including any amount of blood in the snow.

Your treble hook idea interests me. I may have to try that next winter. I would like to get a good pelt from a coyote. What size treble hook?

cp1969 · Aug 4, 2002

RanchMan, I don't believe I'll be reading any of your comments from here on if you can't discuss things with civility. Nowhere in this thread did I call you or anyone else in this thread a liar. All I said was that my experience was different from yours.

As I said, you believe what you want, and so will I.

DAP · Aug 4, 2002

...I have far more problems with dogs. I live too close to a town. Thru years of experience, I have learned to just pop the dog and bury it. Ask no questions. People don't want to hear that "Fluffy" is chasing your horses....

Um .... somehow I don't think feral dogs are named "Fluffy". God help you if one of your townspersons discovers their K9 buried on your acreage.

When I see a stray dog, I check it for ID and do the leg work to reunite it with it's owners. If not, and it continues to be a nusiance, I call in the puppy police. That's what we all pay 'em for.

Scott_in_WVA · Aug 4, 2002

Pilgrim that is a good story...Thanks for sharing./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

cowboydoc · Aug 4, 2002

Well said Ranchman. It's nice to know that your word and honor still mean something to some people in this world.

rdln · Aug 4, 2002

I'll take a stab (pun intended) at it and say a 6/0, about the size used for salmon snagging. About 2.5 inches in diameter.

drpepper · Aug 5, 2002

DAP, I guess things are differant out here. We have no "puppy police." In the Panhandle, you are expected to take care of a lot of problems on your own. In the beginning (before my hair was gray) I followed dogs home and asked people to please keep them off my place. Guess what, they always deny that their dog ever leaves their property. All that happened was hard feelings. I had one particular dog that was a huge problem. He was at the point of snarling and barring his teeth when I tried to run him off. I talked to the Sheriff about it and he said "You've got a .22 don't you?" That is really the best solution for me. There is no dog worth a broke leg on a $3500 horse. Yes, I have a heart and I really hate to do it. If people would only contain their animals. Oh, by the way, I live in a county that has 22,000 people last census. 19,000 of them live in one town, and I stay as far away from it as possible. I guess we don't have all the services and as structured lifestyle as the people in other parts of the country. I kinda like it this way.

RanchMan · Aug 5, 2002

cp1969-

I'm sorry you interpret the sarcasm of my last post as being "uncivil." I think the "lack of civility" gauntlet was thrown down LONG BEFORE I ever jumped in. Just guess I'm fed up with what I see as attacks on those who I believe are honest individuals trying to educate others as to their witnessing coyote attacks.

I guess the one major difference I see between my "brand" of sarcasm and others is that I use facts to support my arguments in addition to the negative tone where I have seen only negative tone and lack of logical argument flow as posted by others. (including yourself.) Is negative tone required to make a logical point? Not at all. But, as I stated earlier, **I** didn't let "that genie out of the bottle." Although I didn't start it, I sure ain’t gonna sit down and take it either. As Popeye says, "I's had all I can stands, I can't stands no more!"

Since you asked for it, I'll illustrate this using your own words as much as possible and try to limit my own since you are unable/unwilling to deal with sarcasm (although I believe you have dished out plenty yourself). Not sure why, as it seems EdKing, Cowboydoc, & others have been attacked far more viciously, but fair enough, I'll put on the "kid gloves" so you don't "feel threatened" and "exit stage left." Hopefully it will meet with your approval since you now have stated your willingness to withdraw from the discussion unless I “play nice.”

Nowhere in this thread did I call you or anyone else in this thread a liar. All I said was that my experience was different from yours.

You stated:
I'm not saying your experience isn't true--all I'm saying is that it is definitely not the way I have found coyotes to behave in my neck of the woods. 

As I said, about the only conclusion that will be reached in this discussion is that coyotes' behavior apparently varies considerably with geographic location.

I'm willing to believe that coyote behavior could very well be different where you live, but don't try to tell me that's how they are around here, because they aren't. (inflection added)

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Ok, so it appears that you are saying those here may not be liars, but your "local" coyotes could never conduct themselves in any such way. On the surface, this appears to support your argument that you "never called anyone here a liar." But let's step back and look at the other comments you have posted for a second.

Comments from earlier posts of yours:
Why do you want to 'cut their numbers as much as possible?' What do they hurt? - implied doubt as to there being any "real" issue.

I wonder if all these livestock killings were witnessed or if tracks were found by a carcass--then I have to wonder how many people can tell a coyote track from a dog track. - implied ignorance of observers and implied doubt as to actual viewing of events

You witnessed it or your neighbor told you he did? - implication of subterfuge of another poster on this thread

Not once did I find a person who claimed he'd actually seen it, except from persons who were in my opinion blowhards or known liars - implication that those who report seeing such attacks are liars (general stereotype - e.g. posts from others on this board were not specifically excluded from this comment).

And you expect me to disregard that body of evidence and accept on someone's internet say-so that coyotes' behavior as an entire group is to routinely prey on livestock? Sorry--ain't gonna happen. - denial of testimony from other posts on this thread, implication of deceit of others on this thread - e.g. calling them liars

To me, at least, all of these statements reflect a common thread of: (1) doubt that any real issue exists, and (2) deceit/subterfuge from others who posted their eyewitness accounts of attacks within this thread. (e.g. they are liars)

So, which is it? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Seems like an oxymoron to me. Either coyotes, under the right circumstance, can/will attack livestock or they will not. Either those who have posted their eyewitness accounts are telling the truth and yes, even your locally "nice" coyotes, under the right circumstances, will attack livestock/deer, OR they will not and all those who have posted said experiences are guilty of deceit/lies.

I've already stated my position, and don't feel I've been "wishy-washy" in my beliefs/support of the others who have posted. Since your posts seem to go "both ways", settle up and state it clearly/concisely - what do you believe? Liars or honest individuals? Pick a side and leave the politics out of "riding the fence." If you're willing to do that, I'll quit “picking on you.”

EdKing · Aug 5, 2002

Your treble hook idea interests me. I may have to try that next winter. I would like to get a good pelt from a coyote. What size treble hook? 

I wouldn't recomend the treble hook idea. A leghold trap or a box set is a much safer alternative. A treble hook in the gut is pretty much a death sentence to the animal that eats it, and unless caught and dispatched quickly, a slow and painful death. Traps can be indiscriminant as to what they catch, and I'd hate to hook a neighbors dog who was just eating some carrion. With a leghold or box trap you can release the animal with little to no injury if you inadvertantly catch the wrong thing. Also, if you plan on trapping, make sure you check your traps both morning and evening, also to prevent harm if you catch the wrong animal.