where are the coyotes?

[EdKing]

<font color=blue>I'd slither out too if I couldn't address anyone's points with anything other than made-up knowledge and insults. </font color=blue>

Bravo, Ranchman, I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Egon]

Beenthere:

I too have enjoyed this thread as it has expanded my knowledge base. Maybe a little hard on the ego when you realize your ideas were not complete but bringing them up to date compensates.
Egon

 

[cp1969]

I don't know how I could construe your carefully chosen words any other way. When you say "just because you didn't see it happen doesn't mean it didn't happen" is exactly that--it is asking me to take someone else's word that an event occurred.

When I say I tried to prove the coyote's guilt, this is what I mean: I heard for years during my youth from various people who believed it to be true, that coyotes were predators of livestock. I had no reason to believe otherwise but when I became old enough to hunt and trap, I never saw this happen, nor did I see evidence that it did (coyote tracks around a carcass doesn't prove the coyote did the killing, nor does it prove it didn't). When I continued to hear this, I would probe a little deeper, as to whether they'd seen it personally. Not once did I find a person who claimed he'd actually seen it, except from persons who were in my opinion blowhards or known liars (e.g., from the guy who claimed to have served in Vietnam, but was never in the Army). As much time as I've spent around livestock and hunting, I have to believe that for it be common knowledge among people who claim it to be true, that I would have at least had an opportunity to see it for myself. It has yet to happen. In fact, many times I have seen coyotes walk through a pasture filled with cows and calves and they won't even stop grazing, let alone make an attempt to get away from what is supposedly their predator. The coyotes seem oblivious to the cattle as well. I don't know what other conclusion I could reach--I've spent as much time as most, and way more than some people around livestock and coyotes and I've seen them in contact with each other and have never seen any interaction at all. And you expect me to disregard that body of evidence and accept on someone's internet say-so that coyotes' behavior as an entire group is to routinely prey on livestock? Sorry--ain't gonna happen. I'm willing to believe that coyote behavior could very well be different where you live, but don't try to tell me that's how they are around here, because they aren't.

Now, if Mr. Coyote was acutally on trial, as a juror I would probably have to put my personal experience aside and vote with the preponderance of witness testimony, if that was all that was presented, in spite of the fact that it conflicts with my own experience. But I would probably be more comfortable as a witness for the defense.

Everyone needs to try not to get so steamed up over this. If you believe that your neighborhood coyotes are a threat to your livestock herds, fine with me, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that my herd is in danger. Maybe you ought to consider relocating to where the coyotes don't seem to prefer that table fare? I don't use the smiley faces, but if I did, I would but a wink in right here.

 

[woodyed]

I agree with you about not pushing any panic button on CWD. I live in Central New York State and there hasn't been to my knowledge, any animal domestic or wild, that has been diagnosed with CWD. Even if there had been, I don't think I would become very concerned, and I eat plenty of venison in a year's time. On the matter of coyotes, where I live there is an has been an explosion in the deer, turkey, rabbit, as well as the coyote populations in the last 7 or 8 years. They all co-exist and continue to increase in numbers even though the coyote is the largest predator. So the fact is, that the coyote in my opinion, observations, and regardless of their numbers, have little effect on the other game populations. I might add, that there are several large sheep operations in my area also, and I've not heard any anti-coyote talk out of them. I trap fox and coyote every year in my area, so I would hear from them if they did have coyote problems.

 

[Pilgrim]

I have had a close encounter of the “I’m a dead man” kind with coyotes.
Four years ago I took a solo walk across the street from my home. It’s about 10k acres owed by the Water Commission (MDC). All posted. No hunting, fishing, hiking. The locals call it “Heaven”, and it is for anything with wings, gills or 4 legs.
Now the property owners who are adjacent to it HAVE been known to wander in there every once in a while (fishing pole in hand). Which I did.
It was an overcast day and I went in without a compass (stupid), cell phone (don’t own one) or sidearm (don’t get caught with a fishin pole in there let alone a gun, $$$).
What was I talking about? Oh yea, the coyotes.
I was about a half mile in, bushwhacking through a large stand of mountain laurel. Visibility was next to nothing. That’s when I dumbed across him. He was about 10 feet in front of me. We did the obligatory “holy [censored], where did YOU come from” for about 5 seconds. At that point I’m wondering why isn’t he running? That’s when I started thinking, “why aren’t I running”. So I pulled a 180 and got my cigarette scared lungs pumping the legs.
Shot a straight line through the laurel I had just been weaving through. Now as I’m running I can hear him off to my right. He’s keeping up with me. I’m getting a look at him about 15 feet to starboard. Then I herd his buddy and got a look at him 15 feet to the port side. They weren’t even working to keep up with me. I’m thinking they’re the bread and this Irishman is the corned beef.
When I came out of the laurel I picked up a stick mid stride and saw the swamp ahead. I’m gonna take the shortest distance between two points and hit the swamp runnin. The adrenaline is pumping good and the hackles are up but my work boots filled with water and mud and it was like someone put the Jake break on. I turned to take them on, stick held over my head. I scanned the edge of the swamp but couldn’t see them. I got my breath and tried to orient myself. It was overcast so I couldn’t get a bearing from the sun. I heard a jet overhead and took my bearing from the approach path to the airport to get out of there.
I can only figure I stumbled across their den. They chased me out so far and went back to tend to their pups.
I’ve seen them piss on my mail box post , piss on my truck tire, piss in my propane tank and even piss on my house, but that is the only time I thought they were gonna piss on me.
So there you go. It was a close encounter of the weird kind.

 

[rdln]

big treble hook with rotting meat hung from tree with astout line about 5 feet from the ground.

 

[cp1969]

RanchMan, I don't believe I'll be reading any of your comments from here on if you can't discuss things with civility. Nowhere in this thread did I call you or anyone else in this thread a liar. All I said was that my experience was different from yours.

As I said, you believe what you want, and so will I.

 

[DAP]

<font color=blue>...I have far more problems with dogs. I live too close to a town. Thru years of experience, I have learned to just pop the dog and bury it. Ask no questions. People don't want to hear that "Fluffy" is chasing your horses....</font color=blue>

Um .... somehow I don't think feral dogs are named "Fluffy". God help you if one of your townspersons discovers their K9 buried on your acreage.

When I see a stray dog, I check it for ID and do the leg work to reunite it with it's owners. If not, and it continues to be a nusiance, I call in the puppy police. That's what we all pay 'em for.

 

[Scott_in_WVA]

Pilgrim that is a good story...Thanks for sharing./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[cowboydoc]

Well said Ranchman. It's nice to know that your word and honor still mean something to some people in this world.

 

[rdln]

I'll take a stab (pun intended) at it and say a 6/0, about the size used for salmon snagging. About 2.5 inches in diameter.

 

[drpepper]

DAP, I guess things are differant out here. We have no "puppy police." In the Panhandle, you are expected to take care of a lot of problems on your own. In the beginning (before my hair was gray) I followed dogs home and asked people to please keep them off my place. Guess what, they always deny that their dog ever leaves their property. All that happened was hard feelings. I had one particular dog that was a huge problem. He was at the point of snarling and barring his teeth when I tried to run him off. I talked to the Sheriff about it and he said "You've got a .22 don't you?" That is really the best solution for me. There is no dog worth a broke leg on a $3500 horse. Yes, I have a heart and I really hate to do it. If people would only contain their animals. Oh, by the way, I live in a county that has 22,000 people last census. 19,000 of them live in one town, and I stay as far away from it as possible. I guess we don't have all the services and as structured lifestyle as the people in other parts of the country. I kinda like it this way.

 

[RanchMan]

cp1969-

I'm sorry you interpret the sarcasm of my last post as being "uncivil." I think the "lack of civility" gauntlet was thrown down LONG BEFORE I ever jumped in. Just guess I'm fed up with what I see as attacks on those who I believe are honest individuals trying to educate others as to their witnessing coyote attacks.

I guess the one major difference I see between my "brand" of sarcasm and others is that I use facts to support my arguments in addition to the negative tone where I have seen only negative tone and lack of logical argument flow as posted by others. (including yourself.) Is negative tone required to make a logical point? Not at all. But, as I stated earlier, **I** didn't let "that genie out of the bottle." Although I didn't start it, I sure ain’t gonna sit down and take it either. As Popeye says, "I's had all I can stands, I can't stands no more!"

Since you asked for it, I'll illustrate this using your own words as much as possible and try to limit my own since you are unable/unwilling to deal with sarcasm (although I believe you have dished out plenty yourself). Not sure why, as it seems EdKing, Cowboydoc, & others have been attacked far more viciously, but fair enough, I'll put on the "kid gloves" so you don't "feel threatened" and "exit stage left." Hopefully it will meet with your approval since you now have stated your willingness to withdraw from the discussion unless I “play nice.”

<font color=blue>Nowhere in this thread did I call you or anyone else in this thread a liar. All I said was that my experience was different from yours.</font color=blue>

You stated:
<font color=blue>I'm not saying your experience isn't true--all I'm saying is that it is definitely not the way I have found coyotes to behave in my neck of the woods. </font color=blue>

<font color=blue>As I said, about the only conclusion that will be reached in this discussion is that coyotes' behavior apparently varies considerably with geographic location.</font color=blue>

<font color=blue>I'm willing to believe that coyote behavior could very well be different where you live, but don't try to tell me that's how they are around here, because they aren't.</font color=blue> (inflection added)

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Ok, so it appears that you are saying those here may not be liars, but your "local" coyotes could never conduct themselves in any such way. On the surface, this appears to support your argument that you "never called anyone here a liar." But let's step back and look at the other comments you have posted for a second.

Comments from earlier posts of yours:
<font color=blue>Why do you want to 'cut their numbers as much as possible?' What do they hurt?</font color=blue> - implied doubt as to there being any "real" issue.

<font color=blue>I wonder if all these livestock killings were witnessed or if tracks were found by a carcass--then I have to wonder how many people can tell a coyote track from a dog track.</font color=blue> - implied ignorance of observers and implied doubt as to actual viewing of events

<font color=blue>You witnessed it or your neighbor told you he did? </font color=blue> - implication of subterfuge of another poster on this thread

<font color=blue>Not once did I find a person who claimed he'd actually seen it, except from persons who were in my opinion blowhards or known liars </font color=blue> - implication that those who report seeing such attacks are liars (general stereotype - e.g. posts from others on this board were not specifically excluded from this comment).

<font color=blue>And you expect me to disregard that body of evidence and accept on someone's internet say-so that coyotes' behavior as an entire group is to routinely prey on livestock? Sorry--ain't gonna happen. </font color=blue> - denial of testimony from other posts on this thread, implication of deceit of others on this thread - e.g. calling them liars

To me, at least, all of these statements reflect a common thread of: (1) doubt that any real issue exists, and (2) deceit/subterfuge from others who posted their eyewitness accounts of attacks within this thread. (e.g. they are liars)

So, which is it? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Seems like an oxymoron to me. Either coyotes, under the right circumstance, can/will attack livestock or they will not. Either those who have posted their eyewitness accounts are telling the truth and yes, even your locally "nice" coyotes, under the right circumstances, will attack livestock/deer, OR they will not and all those who have posted said experiences are guilty of deceit/lies.

I've already stated my position, and don't feel I've been "wishy-washy" in my beliefs/support of the others who have posted. Since your posts seem to go "both ways", settle up and state it clearly/concisely - what do you believe? Liars or honest individuals? Pick a side and leave the politics out of "riding the fence." If you're willing to do that, I'll quit “picking on you.”

 

[EdKing]

<font color=blue>Your treble hook idea interests me. I may have to try that next winter. I would like to get a good pelt from a coyote. What size treble hook? </font color=blue>

I wouldn't recomend the treble hook idea. A leghold trap or a box set is a much safer alternative. A treble hook in the gut is pretty much a death sentence to the animal that eats it, and unless caught and dispatched quickly, a slow and painful death. Traps can be indiscriminant as to what they catch, and I'd hate to hook a neighbors dog who was just eating some carrion. With a leghold or box trap you can release the animal with little to no injury if you inadvertantly catch the wrong thing. Also, if you plan on trapping, make sure you check your traps both morning and evening, also to prevent harm if you catch the wrong animal.