Whats wrong with tier 4

[r8nger]

Only 38 k on the clock
Here's your emissions altoro pooppoo!

 

[r8nger]

Oh ya, dodge 5500 service truck. The dealer had to install a new cat and some breather that costs $312, and a couple other things .

 

[buickanddeere]

Some day, loggers will be using axes, and two-man buck saws, farm implements will be pulled by horses and oxen only, (they must be the kind that do not emit methane gas), and all boats will be rowed.

The dream of the New Age new World order Types in the EPA. Makes a person think of the movie The Last Chase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Or the Hunger Games. A few Ruling Elite will still live a comfortable existence over the peasants. It's for the good of the earth you know.

 

[moriboy]

Same thing happened to me a few years back. I bought a new diesel pickup (tier 4) and the thing stranded me in the middle of nowhere. The problem was I wasn't driving it fast enough to build up enough heat in order to let the system do a regen. So, 40 miles from a main road in the middle of the mountains it shut down and told me to "see dealer for service". Granted, being stranded for a mechanical issue can happen to any vehicle, emissions related or not. My frustration was that nothing was really broke, but driving anywhere other than on a highway led to an automatic shutdown. And really, how much pollution was I making idling around? Same thing has/is happening with equipment. My dad bought a new tractor a few months back. He mainly uses it for moving round bales and feeding cattle. It never really gets warm enough to do auto regens. He's had to park it, crank the throttle, and let it sit for 20-30 minutes to clear the warning lights. Where's the sense in that?

View attachment 421112

Only 38 k on the clock
Here's your emissions altoro pooppoo!

 

[Coyote machine]

If we had fewer politicians blowing out methane gases everyone would breathe easier. But that's not happening anytime soon.
If one can afford a Tier 4 tractor, one is already part of the elite in the USA.

 

[jcummins]

Same thing happened to me a few years back. I bought a new diesel pickup (tier 4) and the thing stranded me in the middle of nowhere. The problem was I wasn't driving it fast enough to build up enough heat in order to let the system do a regen. So, 40 miles from a main road in the middle of the mountains it shut down and told me to "see dealer for service". Granted, being stranded for a mechanical issue can happen to any vehicle, emissions related or not. My frustration was that nothing was really broke, but driving anywhere other than on a highway led to an automatic shutdown. And really, how much pollution was I making idling around? Same thing has/is happening with equipment. My dad bought a new tractor a few months back. He mainly uses it for moving round bales and feeding cattle. It never really gets warm enough to do auto regens. He's had to park it, crank the throttle, and let it sit for 20-30 minutes to clear the warning lights. Where's the sense in that?

NONE. Big government is in the process of choking us......till we die.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

The problem I have is i really don't believe how some of the manufacturers are meeting tier IV emissions actually lowers the emissions the engine puts into the air. It just lowers the emissions to pass the test. Meeting the emissions without the need for DPF or SCR, that is a different story. All the EPA seems to be concerned about is that you meet the emissions standard not how you get there. Now I'm no rocket scientist, but if you have a filter that catches the soot, then when it starts to plug up, run a regen that burns it off into the air, what are we gaining here. Now you can blow smoke up my butt and tell me that the urea(that is your DPF fluid, it is manufactured piss)that you inject into the catalyst makes a chemical reaction that makes the soot you burn off environmentally friendly. Now one thing I do know piss freezes and that poses all kinds of problems when you have to hang that off the side of your truck or tractor.
Now we all know California has stricter emissions than the the other 49 states. Remember back in the late 70s when we had the AIR pumps on are cars. That is an air pump that ran off the engine(like an alternator) and pumped air into the exhaust manifold. The same guys that came up with the stuff above tried to tell us that the air being pumped into the exhaust was burning the fuel and hence lowering exhaust emission. So, in California they had two AIR pumps and there cars got worse gas mileage. Well guess what that is not how it worked the air going into the exhaust diluted the exhaust so it would pass the test, more air better test results. I maintain in California they where putting more exhaust emissions into the air because per mile they had to burn more gas! I maintain we are doing the same thing with the DPF regen cycle. Think about it, an engine with DPF gets worse fuel mileage. but once again I'm no rocket scientist.:2cents:

 

[Sprinklerman]

View attachment 421112

Only 38 k on the clock
Here's your emissions altoro pooppoo!

and its 200 miles to get home .

 

[Utopia Texas]

If we had fewer politicians blowing out methane gases everyone would breathe easier. But that's not happening anytime soon.
If one can afford a Tier 4 tractor, one is already part of the elite in the USA.

Thanks for letting me know that working my *** off for the last 42 years at 65-80 hours a week makes me elite. I had no idea I was so privilaged......

 

[Sysop]

I have seen things stated both ways, so I'm of the mindset that everyone is clueless and the more they claim to know, the less they actually do... Generally people know the world around them okay, but not everyone lives within the same little set of circumstances.

- I've seen reliable sources say DPF was put on existing engines as a quick fix to meet the standards, others claim they're brand new from the ground up.

- I've seen reliable sources say some manufacturers got together ahead of the game and through major investment designed entirely new engines that do not need DPF, others claim it's all unspectacular and nothing new about any of it.

With all the many makes and models out there I'm sure it's all true, at least in part; in certain circumstances.

I don't like the government jamming things down folk's throats, but I also would rather do as little harm to the earth as I can. That being said, do your own testing and research on the specific models as a buyer. Don't take what this one or that one says as the standard across every option out there, they're all different and people are only parroting off their experiences of their own set of circumstances.

If cost, or fear over the tier4 gear, or whatever leads you to make another purchase, just be sure it is the right purchase for you. "Most" of the tier4 systems will be trouble-free for many years. Others will be headaches. Look at the types of headaches there are, research the conditions and the systems used to learn the causes and what the fail points will be, and you've learned something that can be useful in making your choice. This is really what should be done on any major purchase.

Anyone who is going to spend money on a tractor needs to understand exactly what they are plunking down the cash on and everything about it. It isn't a smartphone you run out and buy cause reviewers say it is the latest and greatest, then take it home and learn all there is to learn about it. You need to learn about it before buying it, otherwise you will never be happy with your purchase. Big difference between a tool and a toy...

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks for letting me know that working my *** off for the last 42 years at 65-80 hours a week makes me elite. I had no idea I was so privilaged......

You're welcome? Didn't know I was speaking just about you? I'm just saying Tier 4 tractors are not cheap, and if one can afford to buy one, that person falls into a certain lifestyle, and it is more elite than not. And I doubt you worked all those hours for no rewards. If so, what would be the point of all the work? Being part of an elite group is not necessarily a bad thing, just depends on what the group is all about. BTW, privileged, spelled correctly.

 

[Sysop]

Honestly tractors have never been so "cheap" where anyone that wanted some yard art could go buy a new one and park out front and wait for it to rust. So the whole elite thing is silly...

When you compare them to other sorts of tools, prices have went up across the board, whether it is a tier4 tractor or just a really good screwdriver. Are people who own these fancy $100 electric screwdriver drill things "elite" because they have the latest lithium battery technology rather than using grandpa's old $3.85 15 piece Stanley set from the 1940s? I'd ignore anyone complaining about price, it really isn't worth wasting the time that could be spent keeping up...

Living life costs a lot no matter what you do, and most of the ones complaining aren't considering the alternative, so I ignore them. People out living life rather than complaining about what it costs generally get more done and have less to complain about.

 

[Recoveryhill]

Journal of The American Board of Family Medicine

Exhaust from diesel engines is considered to contribute to more than 50% of ambient particulate matter with a mass median aerodynamic diameter less than 10 μm (PM10), greatly contributing to overall air pollution. For fine particulate matter with a diameter below 2.5 μm (PM2.5) and ultra-fine particles with a diameter below 0.1 μm, this contribution is even higher.1 These carbon particles are small enough to be inhaled and deposited in the lungs but have a large surface area. Organic compounds from diesel exhaust with known toxic and carcinogenic properties, such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH), adhere easily to the surface of the carbon particles and are carried deep into the lungs.4 Diesel engines emit other toxic compounds in disproportionately higher concentrations than gasoline engines, including nitrogen oxides, sulfur oxides, ozone, formaldehyde, benzene, and smaller organic molecules. Diesel engines also produce 26% of the total nitrogen oxides in outdoor air.

This is what Physicians think, after substantial research and patient experience. This is not a "Big Government Conspiracy". While it may be permissible to harm yourself, it is not permissible to harm others. Nano particles and organic compounds present in diesel soot do just that. Tier IV emission control eliminates many of these risks.

I'm "stuck" with a tractor without Tier IV protection and there's nothing for the present I can do about it. Rather than lament having Tier IV, those whose machinery offers this protection should be thankful.

 

[skyhook]

I can see it now, were at war,... and we loose because all our military machines are down for the regen's.

My catalytic converter is blocked and it won't pass the e-test, I need $600.00 to replace it and I can't afford it because the darn gas/fuel is too expensive.

They say cigarettes are bad for you, so now they charge $10 bucks a pack, my mother is 94 and still smokes, go figure.:confused2:

Have no fear, there will be "by-passes" that will come out for these "ball and chains" new reprogrammed chips and delete kits, unless the Govt starts manditory E-Tests, we will prevail.:laughing:

 

[Recoveryhill]

Having come of age prior to seat belts being installed in automobiles much less mandatory use of them, many arguments against pollution controls sound much the same as the hue and cry raised about belts.

All one has to do is look at the numbers of lives saved. No one makes up pollution risks just to screw around with you.

 

[buickanddeere]

Recovery Hill. Since when were physicians qualified to remark on engines ? Would the New England Journal of Medicine publish a farmer's article regarding human health ?

 

[buickanddeere]

Recovery Hill. Since when were physicians qualified to remark on engines ? Would the New England Journal of Medicine publish a farmer's article regarding human health ? As for agencies skewing the numbers regarding health and pollution? That has been already committed numerous times to bias option and bp force a "pet" peice of legislation.
Do you have any idea of how many people in the EPA believe in Agend 21 ? Do you know how many EPA types believe that the general public should not own Internal Combistion Engines ?

There are those in the epa who are disappointed that Tier IV did not legislate Diesel engines off the market. Soon the epa will try again with Tier V

 

[houstonscott]

Journal of The American Board of Family Medicine Exhaust from diesel engines is considered to contribute to more than 50% of ambient particulate matter with a mass median aerodynamic diameter less than 10 μm (PM10), greatly contributing to overall air pollution. For fine particulate matter with a diameter below 2.5 μm (PM2.5) and ultra-fine particles with a diameter below 0.1 μm, this contribution is even higher.1 These carbon particles are small enough to be inhaled and deposited in the lungs but have a large surface area. Organic compounds from diesel exhaust with known toxic and carcinogenic properties, such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH), adhere easily to the surface of the carbon particles and are carried deep into the lungs.4 Diesel engines emit other toxic compounds in disproportionately higher concentrations than gasoline engines, including nitrogen oxides, sulfur oxides, ozone, formaldehyde, benzene, and smaller organic molecules. Diesel engines also produce 26% of the total nitrogen oxides in outdoor air. This is what Physicians think, after substantial research and patient experience. This is not a "Big Government Conspiracy". While it may be permissible to harm yourself, it is not permissible to harm others. Nano particles and organic compounds present in diesel soot do just that. Tier IV emission control eliminates many of these risks. I'm "stuck" with a tractor without Tier IV protection and there's nothing for the present I can do about it. Rather than lament having Tier IV, those whose machinery offers this protection should be thankful.

As long as you are not sucking on the muffler of your old girl, you are fine. HS

 

[truckdiagnostics]

The problem I have is i really don't believe how some of the manufacturers are meeting tier IV emissions actually lowers the emissions the engine puts into the air. It just lowers the emissions to pass the test. Meeting the emissions without the need for DPF or SCR, that is a different story. All the EPA seems to be concerned about is that you meet the emissions standard not how you get there. Now I'm no rocket scientist, but if you have a filter that catches the soot, then when it starts to plug up, run a regen that burns it off into the air, what are we gaining here. Now you can blow smoke up my butt and tell me that the urea(that is your DPF fluid, it is manufactured piss)that you inject into the catalyst makes a chemical reaction that makes the soot you burn off environmentally friendly. Now one thing I do know piss freezes and that poses all kinds of problems when you have to hang that off the side of your truck or tractor.
Now we all know California has stricter emissions than the the other 49 states. Remember back in the late 70s when we had the AIR pumps on are cars. That is an air pump that ran off the engine(like an alternator) and pumped air into the exhaust manifold. The same guys that came up with the stuff above tried to tell us that the air being pumped into the exhaust was burning the fuel and hence lowering exhaust emission. So, in California they had two AIR pumps and there cars got worse gas mileage. Well guess what that is not how it worked the air going into the exhaust diluted the exhaust so it would pass the test, more air better test results. I maintain in California they where putting more exhaust emissions into the air because per mile they had to burn more gas! I maintain we are doing the same thing with the DPF regen cycle. Think about it, an engine with DPF gets worse fuel mileage. but once again I'm no rocket scientist.:2cents:

Alright, I am not disparaging the need for emission control on diesel engines. What I am saying is that an engine equipped with a dpf filter that runs a regen is not decreasing the soot that goes into the air! In fact with the lower fuel mileage it is increasing it! As for "engine" design, there is not much to adding a DPF filter, in fact Cummings started a separate division and sells it as a add on. An engine that can meet emissions with out a DPF that is lowering the over all soot levels going into the air. Where the design time comes in for DPF is the manufacturer of the truck or tractor has to figure out how to get the DPF filter to fit. Not to mention the heat issues. The engines that had to be designed to lower NOx, equipped with EGR that was a total engine redesign. It worked and I am for it. They started coming out in 2004.:2cents: