What's invovled in getting a Patent???

[markls8]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Hi Eddie - Ok I just composed a discussion and it disappeared into cyberspace.

A brief recap of it - I'm a self-employed Industrial Designer and I've been involved in the development of several products from conception to introduction to market, and presently manufacture a few, some patented, some not. And, of course, I've been involved in some that did not make it as well. No one can recognize those at the outset.

However, you can increase the odds and I recommend the following book to anyone coming into my office looking to develop a product. It takes you through all the steps, and will help you asses the business value of a patent for your idea. It will also tell you how to assess your product for viability in a number of other areas.

It's "Bringing your Product to Market" by Don Debelak. You can order it through a book store by the ISBN 0-471-15750-3, or you can likely find it online. Anyone else out there thinking of marketing an idea - this is the book for you.

Best regards and good luck. - Brian.

 

[steveinmo]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Eddie,

I don't know where you stand on your patent issue but I just ran across this and thought it might be something you could use.

Free Patents

Steve

 

[EddieWalker]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Mark,

Thanks for the book recomendation. I ordered it on Amazon.com

I looked on ebay, but everyone there seems to have gone crazy on prices. Amazon was cheaper than almost everyone, and when you consider shipping, it wasn't even close.


Steve,

I looked at the website, but it seems to be a link to a link to a link. I sort of gave up after a bit and don't know it there's anythign there or not. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif


Everyone else,

Thanks again for all your advice and help. As of right now I'm leaning towards not going the pantent route and maybe trying to sell the plans if there's a market for it.

Last week I bought the steel and items needed and spent the weekend working on it. I'm about half way done with it as of now. The plywood mockup told me what I needed to do in order for it to work, now I'm making the real thing. There's still a learning curve in the design, but it's such a simple thing that it's almost idiot proof.

I'm still looking arond for one that already exists and either I've just missed it, or nobody is selling them. I'm also afraid that it might turn out to be an old farmers tool that has been around for years, but is so common in some areas that everyone just makes their own. Why I can't find a picture of one is what bothers me.

Once I'm done with it and spend some time working it, I'll decide what to do then. If it works and has some merrit, I'm thinking of asking for volunteers to see if any of you can make it if I send you a set of plans for free. If so, than maybe I can sell the plans for a few bucks.

I will tell you all that it's an item that some of you have on your tractors, but most of us can't afford. This is a way of doing the same thing for less than ten percent the cost of buying one. Just not as fancy, but allot easier to build with a few tools. You will need a welder and a way to cut steel and drill a few very large holes, but otherwise, it's very straight forward.

Sorry for being so mysterious. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eddie

 

[MadDog]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Eddie:

I've been following this thread with real interest, although not much ability to help. I'm a lawyer, but I don't know much about patents.

However, if it is useful on a tractor, I'm interested in it and I do have welding and plasma cutting equipment, as well as annular cutters for my drill press that enable me to drill holes up to 1 1/2" (or more if I buy larger cutters). So when you're ready to disclose, I'll be ready to build.

I do have one thought about protecting your interest in the device. As others have observed, to be patentable, there must be something original that goes beyond the present "state of the art" and it can be expensive both to find out, and to defend a patent if one is issued, against others if they ignore and infringe on it.

Another possibility, which is workable even if what you have come up with is not a patentable invention (or you do not want to invest the $ in trying to patent it), is to copyright your plans and sell them. That would not prevent others from making the same device, if they could get access to your plans or build without them, but you would have a saleable commodity in the plans themselves and it is pretty easy (and inexpensive) to copyright something.

...just a thought. Hope this helps.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Eddie, interesting conversation. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have one patent.

I have a patent pending on the building connector-bracket system.

I have another potential patent in the wings that we'll probably move on later this year to get it pending.

Here's what I've learned about patents.

1. All a patent does is give you a legal reason to engage in litigation. It says you can pursue legal remedy against another entity that is profiting from your intellectual property.

No government entity is going to litigate for you. You are the only one that can pursue legal remedy.

2. That said, we need to consider the patent a statement of position. If you go cheap, which you can, it suggests a position of financial weakness. And entity wanting to infringe upon your patent has only to feel they have the financial and legal expertise to defeat any attempt you might make to defend your patent.

But if you have enlisted not only a patent attorney but patent attorney of some reputation you have informed any potential infringer of the seriousness of your position.

But let's say you have a great idea. And you get it patented without much expense. You're infringed upon. You can't afford a legal remedy on your own. You will lose everything you ever saved to whomever takes up your cause.

3. It's something like ninety five percent of all patents never make any money for the inventor. In fact, most patents are not financially viable.

Some because they're a great idea but not practical to make or use.

And some because the public doesn't get it. Big business can be the public.

I have a good patent attorney. One of the ways a good patent attorney pays instead of costs is the language they use to describe the patent.

If I believed for a minute my patent pending was all he said it was my hat size would double overnight.

He also will define not only the patent completely. He'll define all the potential applications and forms that you've never considered or thought possible.

I believe in patents. But after the fiasco of the first one I swore I'd never go that route again. The difference is patent attornies and being older and wiser about the process.

Six to ten thousand dollars for a patent processed, win or lose, depending upon complexity. It can go a lot more than that if you have to look outside for expertise in making the working model etc.

You can search the USPTO office all on your own. Sometimes I'll go there and just surf patents for grins. It's amazing how many things have been patented and what they propose to do.

I did a ton of searching on my own on by building connector-bracket. But we still hired a Washington D. C. patent search firm to do the official patent search. They confirmed what I'd already found, nothing. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm always surprised when I do these searches about what's been allowed to be patented when you hear all these horror stories about the patent officer disallowing. I can show you some fence patents that are pure vanity patents. They wouldn't stand up in court for a minute. But unless someone wants to fight for them they'll never have to either.

It's a game with big winners and many losers. Maybe that's what makes it so interesting and fun.

my patent (Which is manufactured and for sale btw)

 

[EddieWalker]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Maddog,

Thanks for the interest and also to those of you sending me PM's offering to help. I should have it finished this week and start testing it if I don't get sidetracked on other things.

I feel sort of silly with it because it's such a simple thing, but the geometry and some simple math make it do things that I wouldn't have thought about. Fab is fairly straight forward with a few variables that can be improved on. I really need to get it dirty and put some preasure on it to see where if my weak points fail, or if my components hold up.

One limitation is gonna be HP in the smaller tractors. There's a breaking point where it needs a minimum amount to function.

The copyright idea is something that has allot of merit. If it's as useful as I exptect it to be, it will also be easily to copy and mass produce. I don't know how marketable it will be, but to hobiest it could be quite simple to dublicate to some degree.

I'm taking a ton of pictures of each piece, dimensions and assembly. Making something fairly simple even more straight forward. I'll also need to see how it works on other tractors and various models.

Thanks,
Eddie

 

[EddieWalker]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Harvey,

Thanks for helping out. I read through your patent and don't have a clue what it says. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Legal mumbo jumbo, but it's impressive to see that it exists.

I'm totally ignorant on the whole process and the more I learn, the less inclined I am to pursue it. It's more of a wall decoration in my case anyway.

My idea isnt' really very complicated, but it could be a poor mans solution to something very useful. Not as good as the original, but a huge cost savings that will do pretty much the same thing.

If I go the patent route, I feel I'd be forced to fight to protect it, and in the end, it's very likely that I wont succeed anyway. I like to choose my fights and if the odds are stacked against me, I'd rather find another way to get the result I'm after.

The copyright avenue has me thinking, but again, anybody can try to resell my plans and claim them as their own. If I document it on this website with some vague pictures and demonstrations, I'll at least have a record of when I built it.

Cost of the plans wouldn't be very much, enough to cover expenses and a buck or two sort of thing. We'll see. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The math is also just not there. The materials are under $200 at most. It would take a long day to make it when it's all figured out. Two days easy for most home hobbyists with basic metal working skills.

Profits just for a cheap patent would requre selling a hundred units at least. Not something I really want to get into.

Once I have the plans figured out, I can print and mail them real easy. At a reasonable price, it still wouldn't take very many to turn a profit.

Than there's my nature to share things with friends for free. No profit in that, but I enjoy it allot more. Hopefully I can get a dozen guys interested to do R&D for me who want one and think it's a good idea. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Eddie

 

[GuglioLS]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Hi Eddie,

Count me in – I have a Milling / Lathe machine and can bore large holes.
I also have a pretty good selection of steel in my “inventory” (metal pile out back).
MIG & AC, Metal band saw, etc. If this is something useful that I could use around my property with one of my two tractors then I am all game for a mock up / trial version.
I would imagine by now you have sparked so much interest in your invention that you have got more offers than time.

Either way it will be good to know your final outcome and see your work.
I wish you the best in making the correct decision.

Larry G.

P.S. I know math and my brother is a mechanical engineer

 

[HGM]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Eddie,
See if this link might help you..

I drew up a deer hanger that fits into the receiver hitch 6yrs ago to aid the lone hunter to process his game and load it into his truck with ease and no assistance. About a year ago, I saw that someone had recently produced a very similar product that now sells for $189. Talk about a sinking feeling, knowing that you had the idea, plans and ability to produce it but didnt, only to find out that you waited too long to capitalize.. I have heard from some(not certain of the leagal truth) that if I can prove that my plans existed before the product was patented, I would be entitled to a peice(however large ??).. I'm just not that kind of guy, they jumped on it and ran, they deserved it so I havent even looked into the posibility.. Now, I can still improve a good bit on their product but agin, just waiting for the right moment /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif (can you say lazy?)..

Anyhow, maybe that link can help you get the ball rolling and give you an idea what production would cost. You may be able to patent the idea then sell the plans. If someone steels it, then you can choose whether to fight or not. In the meantime, you should be able to recoup your investment from plan sales.. Or, you can start a TBN network investment.. What do you think $20 per person interested to persue the patent, then you can pay royalties?? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Just an idea..... Let us know what you decide, I agree with the rest of the guys, you peaked our curiosity...

 

[RonR]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Eddie,

There's also the TBN gratitude factor. A long time ago, someone (forget who) posted plans to build a landscape rake. People have been referred to that many times. Others that we likely will never know about, saw it, built it, and comment to their friends "yeah, I got that from a good guy on TBN".

Imagine all the references to the "Walker Wingnut (or whatever you call it)"...............................

Whatever you do, have fun!

ron

 

[toy]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

I have been reading this thread with interest. Its' a sad thing to know that you come up with an idea on how to make a useful product that has a money making potential but the legal process is so complicated that it wouldn't be worth the effort knowing that a big company could see your idea and get a patent on your idea and sell it for a profit and nothing you can do. This seems like it would stiffel a lot of creative advancement as a lot of people would keep their thoughts to theirself, then if you do get a patent they could take your invention send it overseas to one of our free trade partners where they can steal your idea make it and send it back to sell to you and our leaders will quickly tell you that it is fair trade. For a cheap way to protect your product for the present time could you take a picture of it and have it noterized along with a description of what it does and how it is made have all pages noterized that would at least set a time frame of when you came up with the idea. I don't know if this is sensible or not but I have thought about it before and seems like a good idea . With this in your files it would establish a time for you.

 

[MadDog]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Toy: You're right that doing that would establish the time when you had come up with the idea and reduced it to practice, but that wouldn't protect you since, without a patent, anyone else would have the right to make the same device. The exclusive right to use (or license others to use) an invention is obtained only through issuance of a patent.

Of course, if people seeing or having the device still wouldn't enable them to copy it, you could just sell the finished product and keep how you did it to yourself, as a trade secret. The classic examples are the formulas for making Coke and Pepsi, which are not, so far as I know, patented, but which have been preserved as trade secrets.

Hope this helps.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

First thing. You can come up with a product. And if you're not infringing upon anyone else's patent you can make it until the sun stops shining without patenting it. But if you don't patent your idea then anyone else can make and market it too. They can't patent your idea. You're the only one that can do that. If they did get a patent on it they'd never be able to defend it.

One of the interesting things on this last patent was dealing with the patent attorney. I demonstrated and explained until I was almost at wit's end with him. He just didn't seem to get it at all. Old age and wisdom kicked in about the time I was about to lose it and I realized his inability to comprehend my position was the best thing to happen. Because when I did get across what was happening I understood he'd have it and he'd have it good.

I was proven right. He defined and expanded my concept way beyond what my wildest dreams. That's why lawyers make so much money. Because they earn it.

Coming up with the idea is the easiest part of the whole process. Refining and defining while difficult aren't that tough either. What's tough is figuring out how to manufacture and market it at a profit.

As I've pointed out, a patent only gives you license to litigate. It doesn't make your product a success. It doesn't guarantee that your idea will provide you with a nice retirement. It only gives you the right to sue anyone that appropriates your idea without compensating you for it.

One of my constant fears on the invention front is not taking the concept at hand to it's simplest and most logical end. If you stop anywhere before that point you're wasting effort, time, and money. And whoever follows up your idea with the simplest and most logical edition will be the one that makes the money and gets invited to the Oprah Show.

Let me give an example. A friend of mine along with some other investors invested over a million dollars in a patented product. What it did was replace four standard floor tiles in the aisle of a retail establishment. It had a clear cover and held advertisements for the consumer to see.

It was a great idea. But the real money maker of that concept you see everytime you go shopping in a major retailer. A simple vinyl advertisement that's applied to the floor.

Getting a product out and making money with it is very difficult. The patent process might or might not be a part of success in marketing a product. However, I see the patent process just another aspect of business. It and success in business are difficult. Both require a lot of luck, almost as much effort, and most important of all, committment.

Within the next week you're going to get to see inside the process of defining and refining a patentable product right here on TBN.

Texasdon is wanting to use my brackets for a carport-storage area he's going to build. I've provided him with the brackets and agreed to provide instruction and design assistance.

He's agreed to document and photograph the project.

This will be a transparent process wth everyone following it here on TBN seeing the good, bad, and ugly of it all. If something doesn't work Don will present me with the problem and I'll have to resolve it to both of our satisfaction.

It should be interesing. I know it will be fun. Mostly because Don and me have danced before. Do a search for "atv bridge" and you'll see.

 

[EddieWalker]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

One of the things I love about this website that I've never found on any other sites is how much information everyone has and is willing to share!!

Harvey, you cleared up my thought process quite a bit with your last post. I don't have any ambition to turn my idea into a business, nor do I expect it to make me any money. It's just a simpler way of doing what allot of us are already doing, but much simpler and cheeper to build.

The simplicity in it is what will make it so easy to copy and duplicate. Sort of like a log drag. It's simple, easy to build and impossible to defend from anybody else from copying. A cleaver guy could make a buck or two from selling plans on how to make a log drag, but it wont make him much money because allot of people will be able to see it and instantly understand how to make it themselves. This is what I've done, but of course, it's not a log drag or anything like it.

Friends think my idea is very original and I should get a patent before somebody else does and starts selling it. Friends have a way of being nice and being encouraging, but sometimes don't always see the whole picture. They also find it very easy to spend my money and manage my time. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks Harvey for your advice and sharing your personal experiences. And also, thanks for the tease on Don's project. Sounds like it should be a fun one to follow.

Eddie

 

[moeh1]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

One variant on the "we'll help you get a patent" idea. When Singer Sewing Machines started, he couldn't afford patent lawyers and all the ensuing legal cost to defend, so he convinced a firm to represent him for a stake in the company - and they were very aggressive. There are patent firms who engage in filing patent applications and also sell patent portfolios. You might be able to convince one of these to work with you to develop and sell the idea for part of the action. You would have to build a business case ( market size, saving of this invention, etc.) to gain substantial interest.

 

[keeney]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Another route to take.

If its not worth hiring a patent attroney, it still might be worth filing your own application which will be better than nothing. Worse that happens is that it never gets patented and you are out the filing fee and some time.

Say it does get issued, but because its self-writtten, it is not a very "strong" patent. Well, you said the idea is not all that valuable, so in the unlikely event you do find somebody infringing, they will likely not fight too hard. Faced with stern letter and a patent (which once issues is presumed to be valid), they will likely just stop infringing.

OR, maybe if business is good, they offer to pay a licensing fee. They do all the work of building and selling, and you get some of the profit. If such a situaion arises, don't get too greedy up front. A couple percent is reasonable. 10% of MSRP will likely be a deal killer. Even a measely $1 per copy can add up to a lot of money over the 20-year life of a patent.

 

[MadDog]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

"That's why lawyers make so much money. Because they earn it."

That is, without a doubt, the nicest thing that anyone has said about lawyers on the 'net that I can remember, either on TBN or anywhere else. I can hardly believe it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Somebody actually thinks that we do something useful and provide a service of value?? /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I'll bet your lawyer returns your calls promptly. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

w_harv, you've made my day. Very occasionally, I have a client who says something like that and it's so much nicer to hear than "s***w all them exploitative shyster lawyers who hoodwink gullible juries and make it impossible for anyone to do anything without gettin' sued." .

I, and I'm sure, all other lawyers who are TBNers, thank you very sincerely for saying something that could only be said with credibility by someone who is NOT a lawyer.

 

[jimmysisson]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Mad, my now-Alzheimer's dad was a lawyer for nearly 50 years. He represented Worker's comp workers, and did well by them. Lots of letters of thanks from those injured guys. So I know people don't like lawyers, except their own lawyers when they're in need. Kinda like politicians.
My own employees can't get much from Comp these days, as the Mass laws were changed in I think 1989. Makes me grumpy to pay the high premium and on the RARE occasion someone needs to use it they get endless grief and delays!
Anyway, you're not the only one. How's your splitter coming?
Jim

 

[MadDog]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

Hi Jim:
I'm sorry about your Dad. It's a tough thing to see the life of someone you love (or anyone else, for that matter) wind down like that.

Workers' Comp was supposed to be fast and dispute-free and the trade-off was that the level of compensation was modest. Unfortunately, while the comp is modest, it is no longer fast or sure. Like many reasonable ideas, it's gotten a bit contaminated over time.

Last weekend I didn't get to do anything on my splitter because I worked both days at in-laws condo again. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

But THIS weekend, we're only going to spend one day there, so I'll get to spend a day welding. I should get the two remaining gussets in and perhaps the end plates.

I've got all the other stuff on hand, now, and the next stage will be cutting and welding the anchor blocks and push-plate. I want to have it completed before I weld either its anchors or the cylinder anchors, so that I can extend the cylinder fully and set the push plate and rear anchors up together so that I know that they line up perfectly before I weld them.

If I get that far, I'll take some pics.

 

[EddieWalker]

Re: What\'s invovled in getting a Patent???

I think I've found my idea at the US Patent website. From the description, it does what mine does and it's even named the same. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

What really kills me is that it was file on March 9, 2006.

Hows that for timeing? I'm looking back from the mid 70's and it's a brand new patent.

I'm still trying to get pictures or diagrams of it, but I'm having trouble so far. If it's it, than I'll just use it for my own purposes and that's that.

Eddie