What would you do..?
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Anonymous Poster
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Burning is not too good for the environment, which is the most precious gift the good lord gave next to our life. )</font>
Nah, you don't look any more like a dope than me. I worried about burning, too, especially with the diesel (see my post above). However, the good Lord also gave us fire, but did not directly give us chippers...the Earth has survived a long time, despite fire. Fire is Nature's way of getting rid of the trash. I was really tempted to do a controlled burn of the whole 5 acres - it's done all the time, here in Florida. But, there were too many pepper trees (which the State has declared "noxious") too close to the oak, maple, pine and palm trees. Most of the Forestry guys love the environment (they have to, they sure don't get paid enough, otherwise), and they recommended burning.
I really would have preferred hauling away over all the methods, because the landscape debris section of the landfill is decomposing naturally and will contribute to the good earth. But, the expense was enormous - estimates ran into the thousands.
Nah, you don't look any more like a dope than me. I worried about burning, too, especially with the diesel (see my post above). However, the good Lord also gave us fire, but did not directly give us chippers...the Earth has survived a long time, despite fire. Fire is Nature's way of getting rid of the trash. I was really tempted to do a controlled burn of the whole 5 acres - it's done all the time, here in Florida. But, there were too many pepper trees (which the State has declared "noxious") too close to the oak, maple, pine and palm trees. Most of the Forestry guys love the environment (they have to, they sure don't get paid enough, otherwise), and they recommended burning.
I really would have preferred hauling away over all the methods, because the landscape debris section of the landfill is decomposing naturally and will contribute to the good earth. But, the expense was enormous - estimates ran into the thousands.
jlong
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I did just what you are looking at with about 3 acres. I used a Ford 1520 with FEL and rake mounted on the rear 3 pt hitch. I pushed the stuff onto a few piles scattered within the area to reduce on the distance needed to move the stuff. What I misssed with the FEL, I got with the rake (sometimes on the same pass). There was some repetition, but not that much. Then after clearing aroung those piles, used diesel to get rid of it all.
I also considered the chipper, but in retrospect, I realize that chipping it would have taken MUCH longer, with more effort than any mulch is worth.
I also considered the chipper, but in retrospect, I realize that chipping it would have taken MUCH longer, with more effort than any mulch is worth.
jlong
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thcri
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OkeeDon,
You said you used 5 gallons of diesel to get your fire going. I had a pile that was about 20 x 30 and 12 feet high. I used about a gallon of diesel. I just put some paper under the brush area of my pile and that was all it took to get it going. If your pile is pretty wet I can see you would have to use 5 gallons or so. Your Ranger mentioning this is not a bad idea, of all the fuels out there it is pretty much one of the safest. It does burn slow. I even had some sitting outside in an open pan when it was ten or so below zero and I dropped a match in it and it just put the match out. But anytime we play with fire no matter how it is started there is danger involved.
murph
You said you used 5 gallons of diesel to get your fire going. I had a pile that was about 20 x 30 and 12 feet high. I used about a gallon of diesel. I just put some paper under the brush area of my pile and that was all it took to get it going. If your pile is pretty wet I can see you would have to use 5 gallons or so. Your Ranger mentioning this is not a bad idea, of all the fuels out there it is pretty much one of the safest. It does burn slow. I even had some sitting outside in an open pan when it was ten or so below zero and I dropped a match in it and it just put the match out. But anytime we play with fire no matter how it is started there is danger involved.
murph
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Burning is not too good for the environment, which is the most precious gift the good lord gave next to our life. )</font>
Many jurisdictions have restrictions on burning as well. In my State the burning season is Jan 15 to April 30 and brush only is allowed to be burned. This is why all that stuff has collected in my back yard for about 10 years!
Many jurisdictions have restrictions on burning as well. In my State the burning season is Jan 15 to April 30 and brush only is allowed to be burned. This is why all that stuff has collected in my back yard for about 10 years!
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there are a lot of towns in Mass that aren't allowed to burn, even brush. Miss management and not watching while people snuck in truck tires etc, into brush piles. Not following up on times to be out, etc..
JDGREEN4ME
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We have a little over 5 acres on Seneca Lake. All wooded at this point. We want to clear an acre out for the house and leave the rest wooded. For our size job we figured that renting a chipper made the most sense. Going to use the mulch for the trails my wife has mapped out... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
John_Mc
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( 'Why not just use a front end loader to push it all in a pile and burn it? "
I didn't have much luck pushing it with my FEL. I would loose most of it before I got to where I wanted it to burn.)</font>
A toothbar on your FEL works wonders when pushing brush, and it's a lot cheaper than a grapple. Still takes a bit of finesse to push with a toothbar, but it's easier than a bare bucket. Of course, your mileage may vary...
John Mc
I didn't have much luck pushing it with my FEL. I would loose most of it before I got to where I wanted it to burn.)</font>
A toothbar on your FEL works wonders when pushing brush, and it's a lot cheaper than a grapple. Still takes a bit of finesse to push with a toothbar, but it's easier than a bare bucket. Of course, your mileage may vary...
John Mc
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( there are a lot of towns in Mass that aren't allowed to burn, even brush. Miss management and not watching while people snuck in truck tires etc, into brush piles. Not following up on times to be out, etc.. )</font>
Yes, as you point out it's not just as simple as just deciding to burn during the burning season. In our Town we issue permits and the Fire Chief has final say over what days are appropriate for burning. I do believe it is a local decision whether or not to allow burning at all, though.
Yes, as you point out it's not just as simple as just deciding to burn during the burning season. In our Town we issue permits and the Fire Chief has final say over what days are appropriate for burning. I do believe it is a local decision whether or not to allow burning at all, though.
Anonymous Poster
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thcri, actually, what I said was you can dump from 5 gallon cans if you don't have a pump, but it doesn't have to be the whole 5 gallons...I don't know that we ever measured what we use...since we do have the pump and nozzle, we just sort of sprinkle it all over. Can't be as much as 5 gallons on each pile, because the tank lasted a long time!
About permits and limits on burning and such...some of you may remember the devastating forest fires around Daytona a couple or so years back, and then go back a couple of more years, and there was a forest fire that burned down 48 houses -- that was in Port St. Lucie, where I've been living for the past 31 years, and will, until our Okeechobee project is done. The Florida Div or Forestry is really tough on people who burn without permits or without calling each day. We don't need any more of those terrible fires!
We really have to jump through hoops to burn. The Ranger comes out and inspects the conditions. If he approves of your burn locations, he reminds you of the rules - 100' from any roads, 100' from any power lines, and 300' from any buildings not your own (100' from the ones you own). You must have a loader present to be able to gather up and smother any fire that gets away. The piles must be attended. You can tend more than one pile at a time, but only if they are all visible. All visible flames have to be extinguished before nightfall.
Finally, while there is no actual "season" for burning, we have to call each morning we want to burn and get permission. If there is anything in the current conditions that would make burning unsafe (too dry, too windy, etc.), permission will not be granted.
One thing our Ranger really does not like is if you relight existing burn piles - too smoky. We found that if we move the unburned material to another pile, shaking off dirt and ash, it's OK. He really likes the piles to sit around a few weeks until they are nicely dried out - while diesel will start a fire in green wood, it, too, is too smoky.
Even if your area does not have such rules, these would be good rules to follow.
About permits and limits on burning and such...some of you may remember the devastating forest fires around Daytona a couple or so years back, and then go back a couple of more years, and there was a forest fire that burned down 48 houses -- that was in Port St. Lucie, where I've been living for the past 31 years, and will, until our Okeechobee project is done. The Florida Div or Forestry is really tough on people who burn without permits or without calling each day. We don't need any more of those terrible fires!
We really have to jump through hoops to burn. The Ranger comes out and inspects the conditions. If he approves of your burn locations, he reminds you of the rules - 100' from any roads, 100' from any power lines, and 300' from any buildings not your own (100' from the ones you own). You must have a loader present to be able to gather up and smother any fire that gets away. The piles must be attended. You can tend more than one pile at a time, but only if they are all visible. All visible flames have to be extinguished before nightfall.
Finally, while there is no actual "season" for burning, we have to call each morning we want to burn and get permission. If there is anything in the current conditions that would make burning unsafe (too dry, too windy, etc.), permission will not be granted.
One thing our Ranger really does not like is if you relight existing burn piles - too smoky. We found that if we move the unburned material to another pile, shaking off dirt and ash, it's OK. He really likes the piles to sit around a few weeks until they are nicely dried out - while diesel will start a fire in green wood, it, too, is too smoky.
Even if your area does not have such rules, these would be good rules to follow.
Anonymous Poster
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Just another view on the burning issue:
Frederick County, MD requires a permit (free, but you have to stop in and fill out a form). $500 fine for burning without one.
You must call in to central alarm before starting and after it is out.
Here is where it gets wild. They mentioned that if the brush is within 50' ft. of a forested area, that you can only burn after 4 PM to midnight. I called the forestry service to ask why because it seemed downright stupid. We had a front coming through on Saturday morning, with a light drizzle and no wind.
So I wanted to light it off first thing in the morning and be able to tend it in the daytime.I was told that the restriction was based on the idea that relative humidity was highest after 4 PM and the wind was lowest on average. And no, if I burned in the middle of a rainstorm I could still be fined for not meeting the time constraints. So I burned it all in the rain, and in the dark.
I guess I just don't get it.
DaveL
Frederick County, MD requires a permit (free, but you have to stop in and fill out a form). $500 fine for burning without one.
You must call in to central alarm before starting and after it is out.
Here is where it gets wild. They mentioned that if the brush is within 50' ft. of a forested area, that you can only burn after 4 PM to midnight. I called the forestry service to ask why because it seemed downright stupid. We had a front coming through on Saturday morning, with a light drizzle and no wind.
So I wanted to light it off first thing in the morning and be able to tend it in the daytime.I was told that the restriction was based on the idea that relative humidity was highest after 4 PM and the wind was lowest on average. And no, if I burned in the middle of a rainstorm I could still be fined for not meeting the time constraints. So I burned it all in the rain, and in the dark.
I guess I just don't get it.
DaveL
Richard
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I used about a gallon of diesel.
I put my diesel into a 2 1/2 gallon garden sprayer.. allows me to spray it on fire, to refresh it from a distance, to "balloon" the fire up if it needs stoked a bit and I also can "walk" the fire to another part of the pile. I use a dedicated sprayer for this so the wifey knows not to try to spray the "fertilizer" onto her pansies... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
"so far" has worked wonderfully for me.
Richard
I put my diesel into a 2 1/2 gallon garden sprayer.. allows me to spray it on fire, to refresh it from a distance, to "balloon" the fire up if it needs stoked a bit and I also can "walk" the fire to another part of the pile. I use a dedicated sprayer for this so the wifey knows not to try to spray the "fertilizer" onto her pansies... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
"so far" has worked wonderfully for me.
Richard
TresCrows
Elite Member
Plants are photosynthetic machines. When a plant burns it releases back to the atmosphere and soil that which it had stored and "fixed". Plants decaying on a forest floor do the same thing but much more slowly--release back to the atmosphere and soil. While it is PC not to burn in congested areas I cannot see how the combustive process does anything harmful to the environment. Farmers around here burn off their fields in the Spring, this accomplishes the same thing that mother nature did and still does via lightning strikes here on the prarie lands. Fire is extremely important to prarie grasslands and is part of the natural process of nature but of course when people carelessly short circuit the process by causing a forest fire it is right to prosecute them. Just another viewpoint but your statement against burning is thoughtfull advice because burning can be aggravating to neighbors and temporarily add to atmospheric dust, soot etc especially in places that commonly have inversions.
There are tremendous amounts of CO2 stored in the seawater, limestone and fossil fuels and plants. Calcium carbonate, CaCO3 is the constituent of limestone. Exposed--outcropping limestones as they weather naturally release back to the atmosphere tremendous volumes of CO2 to the atmosphere and CO2 is a greenhouse gas. The amount released naturally is staggering and that which we humans produce is insignificant in comparison, one single volcanic eruption can release more gas in a short period than all the worlds automobiles and backyard barbecues and the amount of methane produces by decomposition of plants and animals is equally staggering. Most scientist do not truely support the concept of human caused global warming. There has been a warming since the end of the last iceage which marks the beginning of the Pliestocene. There is much fossil evidence to support a rapid warmup as a prelude to the end of an interglacial and the onset of a new iceage which could occur rapidly. Several serious new studies basically dismiss MOST--not all--human influence (to date) on the long term global temperature balance. I ain't throwing away my coat and sweaters just yet. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gifJ
There are tremendous amounts of CO2 stored in the seawater, limestone and fossil fuels and plants. Calcium carbonate, CaCO3 is the constituent of limestone. Exposed--outcropping limestones as they weather naturally release back to the atmosphere tremendous volumes of CO2 to the atmosphere and CO2 is a greenhouse gas. The amount released naturally is staggering and that which we humans produce is insignificant in comparison, one single volcanic eruption can release more gas in a short period than all the worlds automobiles and backyard barbecues and the amount of methane produces by decomposition of plants and animals is equally staggering. Most scientist do not truely support the concept of human caused global warming. There has been a warming since the end of the last iceage which marks the beginning of the Pliestocene. There is much fossil evidence to support a rapid warmup as a prelude to the end of an interglacial and the onset of a new iceage which could occur rapidly. Several serious new studies basically dismiss MOST--not all--human influence (to date) on the long term global temperature balance. I ain't throwing away my coat and sweaters just yet. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gifJ
TresCrows
Elite Member
Oh, what was that rant all about, I burn my brush most of the time. I have two large piles now and I will burn them in after first snowfall next fall if not sooner.
My pond was full of cattails and it dries up often in late summer or early fall. I tried to burn them but I could not get them to light off. I sprayed them with diesel from a pressure sprayer--still no luck. Got mad /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif, got some gasoline, sprayed that around----hmmmmmmm--lit a match and tossed it-----not so smart /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif--started running /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif--then started running really fast--dove for the ground just as a kawumph--a shock wave that proceeded the fireball past over my head as I hit the ground singing my cloths and sucking the air from me. It rattled windows for about 1/2 mile and because it was twilight was seen by aircraft which flew over to investigate the mushroom cloud and bright flash. My neighbor who builds rocket engines for a hobby was more than impressed /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif. I don't know if it was good for the environment but them catails was smoldering-what fun. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif Ask any caveman?---fire--good /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif J
My pond was full of cattails and it dries up often in late summer or early fall. I tried to burn them but I could not get them to light off. I sprayed them with diesel from a pressure sprayer--still no luck. Got mad /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif, got some gasoline, sprayed that around----hmmmmmmm--lit a match and tossed it-----not so smart /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif--started running /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif--then started running really fast--dove for the ground just as a kawumph--a shock wave that proceeded the fireball past over my head as I hit the ground singing my cloths and sucking the air from me. It rattled windows for about 1/2 mile and because it was twilight was seen by aircraft which flew over to investigate the mushroom cloud and bright flash. My neighbor who builds rocket engines for a hobby was more than impressed /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif. I don't know if it was good for the environment but them catails was smoldering-what fun. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif Ask any caveman?---fire--good /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif J
knucklehead
Platinum Member
JR - /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I really enjoyed that. Hard to communicate truth when it contradicts the agenda ain't it?
Had a geography professor casually mention (back in the early 80's) that granite rock outcroppings (maybe others, too?) also emit significant amounts of natural radiation. In fact, he said, if you pull over anywhere on I-95, and go stand next to one, you'd be dosing yourself more than the peak level emitted during the TMI accident. We need more voices like that.
We are discouraged from using "accellerants" in our town, not sure if it is a statewide thing. Sometimes they get "spilled" on a wet pile. Most of the time, we use an old sheet of plywood to cover the pile as it grows, or at least a windward edge. Then we cut or push aside the big stuff, and make a little classic Boy Scout fire in the V we just made. The breeze does the rest. Starting the piles has been a lot easier since an old friend clued us in to covering a small area to keep it dry. Guess this doesn't apply to green stuff.
JR - wouldn't soaking those cattails in diesel or kero make neat torches? The tribe has spoken /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Had a geography professor casually mention (back in the early 80's) that granite rock outcroppings (maybe others, too?) also emit significant amounts of natural radiation. In fact, he said, if you pull over anywhere on I-95, and go stand next to one, you'd be dosing yourself more than the peak level emitted during the TMI accident. We need more voices like that.
We are discouraged from using "accellerants" in our town, not sure if it is a statewide thing. Sometimes they get "spilled" on a wet pile. Most of the time, we use an old sheet of plywood to cover the pile as it grows, or at least a windward edge. Then we cut or push aside the big stuff, and make a little classic Boy Scout fire in the V we just made. The breeze does the rest. Starting the piles has been a lot easier since an old friend clued us in to covering a small area to keep it dry. Guess this doesn't apply to green stuff.
JR - wouldn't soaking those cattails in diesel or kero make neat torches? The tribe has spoken /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
tdenny
Platinum Member
TresCrows,
Truer words were never spoken. Another great benefit of living out in the middle of nowhere is not having to get permits to burn (which I do often). I have learned several lessons on burning, however, and I now ALWAYS keep my piles within reach of a hoses. It can get pretty windy in my area and it is amazing how fast things can burn. I haven't exploded any cattails yet but I'm willing to learn. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Truer words were never spoken. Another great benefit of living out in the middle of nowhere is not having to get permits to burn (which I do often). I have learned several lessons on burning, however, and I now ALWAYS keep my piles within reach of a hoses. It can get pretty windy in my area and it is amazing how fast things can burn. I haven't exploded any cattails yet but I'm willing to learn. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
timb
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amen trescrows.
We don't have much in the way of "permitting" required around here (yet) - at least I don't think we do /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif - nor requirements to have a loader standing by. But - that "ain't" a half-bad idea even if it isn't required. If you wanted to set your tractor up ahead of time to act as a fire-gotten-out-of-hand emergency tool - the FEL's up front - what's best on the back? A box blade? You're moldboard plow? A disk? (Thinking firebreak in the field time).
(I thought about a JATO bottle just to get out of there but that's probably not the right attitude)
We don't have much in the way of "permitting" required around here (yet) - at least I don't think we do /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif - nor requirements to have a loader standing by. But - that "ain't" a half-bad idea even if it isn't required. If you wanted to set your tractor up ahead of time to act as a fire-gotten-out-of-hand emergency tool - the FEL's up front - what's best on the back? A box blade? You're moldboard plow? A disk? (Thinking firebreak in the field time).
(I thought about a JATO bottle just to get out of there but that's probably not the right attitude)
Anonymous Poster
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ...I thought about a JATO bottle just to get out of there but that's probably not the right attitude...)</font>
That's funny! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Although, it's probably not far off from my first experience. I only had the little tractor less than one day and was still learning to use it, when my son-in-law came running up and said, "One of the piles has gotten away, the grass is on fire, and the big tractor overheated and is getting the radiator cleaned out. You've got to come." Wait a minute -- you expect me to come and stick the nose of my new tractor into a raging inferno? I'm outta here.
But, I went, and there was a circle about 20' in diameter of low grass with small flames creeping away from the pile. On my way there I scooped up a bucket of dirt (which I had never done before, amazing how fast you can learn when you have to), dumped it on the worst spot, and dragged the bucket over some more as I backed away. That worked pretty good. So, I chased a little more with the bucket, when I noticed the fire getting close to a cabbage palm. I scooped up some more and dumped it at the base of the palm, but the flames were flickering up the tree (cabage palms have ragged, dry stumps alll the way up where fronds fall off). By the time I got more dirt, though, the fire on the tree had gone out -- they're loaded with water and won't sustain fire unless it gets really hot. Emergency over. It was probably 2 minutes total, but it seemed like only 20 seconds.
To answer your specific question, the box blade could have also dragged fuel away from the fire and crushed it out, but I'd rather have all the distance from me to the bucket and the bucket itself as a barrier. I can repaint the bucket, but I don't want to see the tractor (or me) burn. Maybe I'm just chicken...
I'll add that from that time on, I made several circles around each pile with the box blade before lighting it, and no more problems.
As for the permitting, I'm not a fan of permits much /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif, but two things made us do it the "right" way. The property runs 780' along a busy highway with lots of them "nervous nellie" do-gooder tourist types travelling by with cell phones, and the Div of Forestry has a tower not too far away.
That's funny! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Although, it's probably not far off from my first experience. I only had the little tractor less than one day and was still learning to use it, when my son-in-law came running up and said, "One of the piles has gotten away, the grass is on fire, and the big tractor overheated and is getting the radiator cleaned out. You've got to come." Wait a minute -- you expect me to come and stick the nose of my new tractor into a raging inferno? I'm outta here.
But, I went, and there was a circle about 20' in diameter of low grass with small flames creeping away from the pile. On my way there I scooped up a bucket of dirt (which I had never done before, amazing how fast you can learn when you have to), dumped it on the worst spot, and dragged the bucket over some more as I backed away. That worked pretty good. So, I chased a little more with the bucket, when I noticed the fire getting close to a cabbage palm. I scooped up some more and dumped it at the base of the palm, but the flames were flickering up the tree (cabage palms have ragged, dry stumps alll the way up where fronds fall off). By the time I got more dirt, though, the fire on the tree had gone out -- they're loaded with water and won't sustain fire unless it gets really hot. Emergency over. It was probably 2 minutes total, but it seemed like only 20 seconds.
To answer your specific question, the box blade could have also dragged fuel away from the fire and crushed it out, but I'd rather have all the distance from me to the bucket and the bucket itself as a barrier. I can repaint the bucket, but I don't want to see the tractor (or me) burn. Maybe I'm just chicken...
I'll add that from that time on, I made several circles around each pile with the box blade before lighting it, and no more problems.
As for the permitting, I'm not a fan of permits much /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif, but two things made us do it the "right" way. The property runs 780' along a busy highway with lots of them "nervous nellie" do-gooder tourist types travelling by with cell phones, and the Div of Forestry has a tower not too far away.
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