what on earth does electricity cost near you?

[Carl_NH]

Last bill here in NH on Eversource was $.23 per KWH, including delivery for 470 KWH $110 ($65 was delivery cost)

Our solar generates 8,000 KWH per year, and is on the garage - on a separate account, and we are grandfathered with net metering rate that matches the current electrical rate so we get paid same for over producing at $.23 per KWH. This covers 80% of our annual usage (house and outbuildings).

They changed the net metering for newer/recent solar installations so they don't get this same deal.

 

[ponytug]

20 cents per here in VT.

But I have a question.

A fellow I know recently put in a rather large solar array on his roof and also put in a pair of the Tesla uninterruptible battery power units. He says the Tesla units will power his home "normally" for one full day. More if he controls his water well pump.
The solar panel puts out three times the his consumption during peak hours of sunlight. Which I am advised is sold back to the power company at discount, and rectified over the annual billing.

BUT...

He can not use the Tesla panels to power his home when the main service is NOT interrupted! This just seems illogical.
The battery packs were paid for, the solar panels were paid for, but he is NOT PERMITTED to use the excess energy produced by the panels to cover the less productive hours of each day.

Seems like a plan to keep money flowing one way to me.

I have never heard of a power company regulating solar or battery use behind the meter for home use. Do you know who his power provider is?

I have seen commercial power contracts that did regulate time of load use, max size, power factor, and a variety of other arcane things, but never a battery use.

From the power utility perspective, they can't tell if today's solar power export is lower due battery charging, overcast, dust on the solar panels, someone is running the AC,... it is just a load.

Powerwalls are just big AC batteries. If he is producing more solar power than he is consuming, either in the house or charging the Powerwall(s), then his meter is going backwards, and he is only using power from solar directly. If he is using more than the solar produces, his Powerwalls can power some or all of the deficit (depends on his Powerwall settings, how big his load is, how many Powerwalls he has, and how much is left in the batteries). So, he could set his Powerwall reserve to be 100%, and they would never power his house except in outage. I know only a small number of folks who have theirs set that way, and most live in areas where there is little or no payment for power exports.

Powerwalls are installed with a control unit for for every 10 Powerwalls. That control unit is, amongst other things an automatic transfer switch that will switch the backed up loads to the Powerwall(s) in the event of an outage. The control unit can also shift the frequency to throttle the solar output if needed, when the house and battery load is smaller than the solar output. Not everyone has their whole house backed up, so during an outage, some loads may not be powered for some Powerwall owners.

Call me skeptical, but but I would love to learn more.

We have our Powerwalls set up to absorb excess solar during the low cost power portion of the day, and to export the solar during mid and high priced (peak) times of day, with the Powerwalls powering 100% of our usage during peak cost power. Depending on the time of year, we may be net exporters of power, or net importers, but in both cases, the solar plus the Powerwalls keep us from importing power during the peak times.

And best of all, the Powerwalls keep us running when the grid dies, which happens not infrequently here.

All the best,

Peter

 

[CobyRupert]

20 cents per here in VT.

But I have a question.

A fellow I know recently put in a rather large solar array on his roof and also put in a pair of the Tesla uninterruptible battery power units. He says the Tesla units will power his home "normally" for one full day. More if he controls his water well pump.
The solar panel puts out three times the his consumption during peak hours of sunlight. Which I am advised is sold back to the power company at discount, and rectified over the annual billing.

BUT...

He can not use the Tesla panels to power his home when the main service is NOT interrupted! This just seems illogical.
The battery packs were paid for, the solar panels were paid for, but he is NOT PERMITTED to use the excess energy produced by the panels to cover the less productive hours of each day.

Seems like a plan to keep money flowing one way to me.

I can see what he wants to do: Let’s say he’s using 50 amps of power.
1) He either wants the battery pack to supply (say) 25 amps and the utility to supply 25 amps, or some other mix, but not recharge the batteries from the utility (what would be the point?), only from the solar. Or,
2) The battery pack supplies the 50 amps until it is drained, but doesn’t recharge from the utility (again, what would be the point?), then system switches to utility power to supply the 50 amps. The battery pack would then sit there discharged until solar panels charge it.
…but the utility is disconnected in this scenario when using battery packs.

#1 would be a very super complicated and very expensive system.
#2 would be regular variety super complicated and expensive system.

 

[DKCDKC]

Very fond of my electric cooperative. My total rate - energy, distribution, taxes, etc. - varies from 10 cents to 13.5 cents per kwh over the year. My home is all-electric, a large ranch with a geothermal heat pump and lots of windows - and an annualized bill below $150 a month. Given the costs I see elsewhere, I can't complain. And we have brief outages of an hour or so once or twice a year... If that.

 

[Carl_NH]

I have never heard of a power company regulating solar or battery use behind the meter for home use. Do you know who his power provider is?

Peter,

Regulations at the state/local/power providers is one of the biggest issues with any renewable installation are the different rules, hoops, and loopholes to get through. The large solar/wind generators have a staff to deal with all this, and the homeowner either needs to go with a company that take care of this, or do extensive research and homework to fully understand the ROI.

In general the west (CA specifically) have tons more time, and history/regulations may favor the consumer more so than the power providers do here in the east, where it's only been in the last 5-8 years solar has taken off.

 

[ponytug]

Peter,

Regulations at the state/local/power providers is one of the biggest issues with any renewable installation are the different rules, hoops, and loopholes to get through. The large solar/wind generators have a staff to deal with all this, and the homeowner either needs to go with a company that take care of this, or do extensive research and homework to fully understand the ROI.

In general the west (CA specifically) have tons more time, and history/regulations may favor the consumer more so than the power providers do here in the east, where it's only been in the last 5-8 years solar has taken off.

Thanks! I was aware of that, and yes, I know that folks in the Eastern and Southern states have many more restrictions on solar than those of us out west. (My favorite is the Florida requirement for an additional million dollar insurance to insure the utility against damage caused by the home owner's solar.) Nevertheless, I hadn't heard of anything like @CalG's acquaintance's issue.

However, there are moves to restrict it even out West. Californians are currently fighting an attempt to force additional charges on pre-existing and future solar installations that would essentially charge solar owners for some or all of their solar production to make it "fair" to other electricity customers. It would also render the ROI on solar to be essentially infinite.

I know other Powerwall customers in New England who don't have the restriction that @CalG mentioned, which is why I was asking. I was curious.

All the best,

Peter

 

[arrow]

The years of reasonable and honest profits are long gone. Greed is the name of the game now!

Not just that. Litigation has added to the cost enormously.
People were suing the electric company for not backing off electricity transferral during tinder season and others were suing for them backing off the output.

 

[CalG]

A note regarding the power wall application.

The person mentioned is off on an extensive motor home tour. Out to the SouthWest, up to Oregon, and the return.
I won't get a chance to clarify any details for over a month. \

I was wondering if it had anything to do with "back up capacity" for the entire local grid. Is that a thing? I've heard more than one mention of such associated with the powerwall installations. A contractual "buffer" of sorts.

 

[3930dave]

However, there are moves to restrict it even out West. Californians are currently fighting an attempt to force additional charges on pre-existing and future solar installations that would essentially charge solar owners for some or all of their solar production to make it "fair" to other electricity customers. It would also render the ROI on solar to be essentially infinite.

All the best,

Peter

Moving The Goalposts - Nice ! Actually, that's more like taking down the goalposts and burning them.....

I've always been interested in off-grid, and as I'm far better at engineering than lawyering, moves like that ^ reinforce my thinking.....

Rgds, D.

 

[ponytug]

Moving The Goalposts - Nice ! Actually, that's more like taking down the goalposts and burning them.....

I've always been interested in off-grid, and as I'm far better at engineering than lawyering, moves like that ^ reinforce my thinking.....

Rgds, D.

Your response is pretty much spot on as to how solar owners here feel about it.

If I were doing it over again, I would certainly explore that option in detail; in particular whether it would be insurable, whether it was legally possible (many places require grid connections as part of local restrictions on building), and whether an off grid generator would be permitted as backup. The technical side is pretty straightforward these days, thankfully.

All the best,

Peter

 

[LouNY]

One of the power company billing schemes that I really love is that if you have sufficient capacity to provide
most of your power much of the time, but desire an electrical service of sufficient capacity to provide all needed power
if your system goes down. You will be billed as if you used the maximum power every day of that billing cycle.
I had heard of that being applied to a large scale solar system that was not tied back into the grid.
It was the utilities favorite tactic years ago when large facilities were looking at co-generation.

 

[3930dave]

Your response is pretty much spot on as to how solar owners here feel about it.

If I were doing it over again, I would certainly explore that option in detail; in particular whether it would be insurable, whether it was legally possible (many places require grid connections as part of local restrictions on building), and whether an off grid generator would be permitted as backup. The technical side is pretty straightforward these days, thankfully.

All the best,

Peter

Various interests don't want anybody opting-out, so urban environments typically won't allow it.

Potentially the most likely site for off-grid would be an unincorporated rural township - but many people won't or can't (work-wise) live there.

I'd build with fireproofing, flooding etc in mind (not a bad idea in general, but unless you can find a specialty insurer, your probably on your own, risk-wise).

As it's a quantum leap (you're not just leaving the grid behind), and requires people to take on responsibilities usually done by someone else in urban settings, uptake in the genpop is rather low.

For Now.....

Rgds, D.

 

[Skagit]

Various interests don't want anybody opting-out, so urban environments typically won't allow it.

Potentially the most likely site for off-grid would be an unincorporated rural township - but many people won't or can't (work-wise) live there.

I'd build with fireproofing, flooding etc in mind (not a bad idea in general, but unless you can find a specialty insurer, your probably on your own, risk-wise).

As it's a quantum leap (you're not just leaving the grid behind), and requires people to take on responsibilities usually done by someone else in urban settings, uptake in the genpop is rather low.

For Now.....

Rgds, D.

As an off grid person, insurance is a non issue. I've had no problems getting coverage and just switched carriers to save some money actually. The wood stove is far more of a problem with insurance than being off grid is. Now, getting a mortgage is, very difficult, but not impossible either.

 

[ultrarunner]

^^^ Yep, those wood stoves can be a deal breaker and even a gas heater rated free standing stove.

I’m grid tied and nothing came up about solar but the CAT wood stove I used once was a deal breaker almost across the board.

I would like backup
Battery but at this point slim chance… when I looked into it 14 months out is what I was told and they did call about a year later but when I learned the price went up said no thank you.

 

[dfkrug]

I would like backup
Battery but at this point slim chance… when I looked into it 14 months out is what I was told and they did call about a year later but when I learned the price went up said no thank you.

Our new neighbor on 5 acres just got their new Enphase solar system installed and working. 34 LG panels (13KW), with 4 Enphase batteries. $85K total up-front cost. Credits this year from the taxpayer will probably be about $30K, state and federal.

The switch to batteries when the power fails works seamlessly. The owner wants an EV to use more electricity as they now only have a PHEV. House is 3500sf with no shade and new A/C system. The lead time to get this system installed was just a few months.

I like the idea of battery backup (with or without solar panels) but I get no sun in the winter months.

 

[ponytug]

^^^ Yep, those wood stoves can be a deal breaker and even a gas heater rated free standing stove.

I’m grid tied and nothing came up about solar but the CAT wood stove I used once was a deal breaker almost across the board.

I would like backup
Battery but at this point slim chance… when I looked into it 14 months out is what I was told and they did call about a year later but when I learned the price went up said no thank you.

You might check to see if you qualify for the SGIP. It offers several different programs by income, whether you have been affected by 2 or more PSPS events, and are on a well or on a medical baseline program (e.g. CPAP). The highest tier offers $1,000/kWh of battery storage. It varies by installer, and by power utility. (California only)

If your battery is connected to a solar system there is also a Federal Investment Tax Credit of 26% this year, going down to 22% next year, but it is a tax credit, so you have to owe federal taxes for it to be useful.

I had similar issues trying to install a wood stove to replace a fireplace. The insurers required dealer installation and no dealer was willing to drive the extra hour to our place. Catch-22

All the best,

Peter

 

[ponytug]

Our new neighbor on 5 acres just got their new Enphase solar system installed and working. 34 LG panels (13KW), with 4 Enphase batteries. $85K total up-front cost. Credits this year from the taxpayer will probably be about $30K, state and federal.

The switch to batteries when the power fails works seamlessly. The owner wants an EV to use more electricity as they now only have a PHEV. House is 3500sf with no shade and new A/C system. The lead time to get this system installed was just a few months.

I like the idea of battery backup (with or without solar panels) but I get no sun in the winter months.

We get very little sun November through February here, and we still had a less than 5 year ROI on solar. Since at the moment PG&E lets you bank energy generated in the summertime for use during the winter, it might work for you as well.

Try PVWatts for an estimate on how much solar you can put in. I know someone who just put in a big solar system and 5 Tesla Powerwalls in your area.

All the best,

Peter

 

[dfkrug]

We get very little sun November through February here, and we still had a less than 5 year ROI on solar. Since at the moment PG&E lets you bank energy generated in the summertime for use during the winter, it might work for you as well.

Try PVWatts for an estimate on how much solar you can put in. I know someone who just put in a big solar system and 5 Tesla Powerwalls in your area.

All the best,

Peter

I use 12KWh per day, year-round, for the past 20y. No A/C, since I have all-concrete house that stays cool. I do like the idea of a Li-ion backup battery, even if I don't have any panels.

Tesla did not even bid the neighbor's project. Not sure why, but others in our area have complained that Tesla quotes one #, then the project costs 50% more. Also, if you get their batteries, you must get their panels.

What is your electric use per day? Even with lower panel costs and subsidies, it is interesting you can make it work economically.

 

[3930dave]

As an off grid person, insurance is a non issue. I've had no problems getting coverage and just switched carriers to save some money actually. The wood stove is far more of a problem with insurance than being off grid is. Now, getting a mortgage is, very difficult, but not impossible either.

I think the snag with closer to urban environments (but potentially anywhere other than unincorporated) is occupancy permit - if the zoning requires grid-connect for Occupancy, then I can see where insurance may get more complicated or unavailable.

(Not saying I'm questioning your experience , and American insurance companies may be more competitive and customer-friendly than some up here).

Needing high heat capability here, but also for the insurance issues touched on, my inclination would be an outdoor wood boiler - not possible in some jurisdictions, even if non-urban.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

^^^ Yep, those wood stoves can be a deal breaker and even a gas heater rated free standing stove.

I’m grid tied and nothing came up about solar but the CAT wood stove I used once was a deal breaker almost across the board.

I would like backup
Battery but at this point slim chance… when I looked into it 14 months out is what I was told and they did call about a year later but when I learned the price went up said no thank you.

Takes time and luck, but keep feelers out amongst your industrial/commercial suppliers (if you haven't already.....) on the battery front.

Occasionally, things don't work out with batteries that are special-ordered. One guy I talked with years back found some brand-new large industrial batteries that were rejected by the Utility on some minor spec variance (case size ?) at a battery distributor - paid more than scrap value, but got a great deal compared to list. Today's material markets are pretty out of whack, but persistence and luck may turn up something for you.

If you have the physical space to play with, consider (run the #'s) traditional battery chemistries for backup. Lithium gives you energy density, but high Ah Li batteries are spendy, and all Li requires a very sophisticated charge controller. Meaning - while it's not a good idea to OverCharge/Discharge any battery chemistry, Li is one of the most dangerous ones (in common use) under these conditions.

Rgds, D.