Welded some hooks on my FEL

chim · Dec 20, 2002

Looks like this will end up a lot longer than the "Poor FiFi Needs Tractor Advice" thread from a while back...............chim

Hydraman · Dec 20, 2002

One day I was motoring down the road in the big truck; the road was icier than icy, and all at once there was a jack-knifed rig about a mile up ahead. So's I shut down on the shoulder to take a peeky see-- not enough room to get by him so all I can do is wait, OK! As the time went by there got to be more and more big trucks stopped on the shoulder waiting for the wrecker to come and pull the jack-knife out. The line of trucks was only about three miles long when a "supertrucker" decided he didn't have time to wait and passed the line of trucks that were just setting along the Interstate for the fun of it !! Well, when he went around the wreck HE slid off the road behind the wreck, obstructing the means of clearing the road by the first wreck. He had to be pulled out by the wrecker before the wreck could be pulled out!!!! Moral of the story---WHY????????? Is the obvious so hard to see??? MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!! Don

bgott · Dec 21, 2002

So, how much cheaper were these than a real hook? Or were they easier to weld? I'd snatch that hook straight the first time I used it!

dkchandler · Dec 22, 2002

Bigeddy,
What model tractor do you have, BX2200????

dkchandler

Gfranklin · Dec 22, 2002

I'm reading this and thinking what am I missing here. Good ideas, great initiative, yet they didn't weld a "hook" on where a "hook" should go. As a mechanical type, possibly a tunnel visioned one at that, I quickly jump to the bending moment part of the equation and conclude that the severe reduction in strength from the bootleg hook doesn't justify the few dollars that may have been saved. Then I think, maybe they are more worried about the hook being ripped off the bucket than straightening the hook out! This is supported by the "beginning to weld" and the "no torquing of the hook" statements. I looked again at the two substitute hooks and noticed that they had a larger, easy to weld "footprint". I can now see where a proper hook may seem a little trickier to weld on. It sits on its edge and if not "burned in deep" could break over sideways and rip off. I'm thinking that most if not all of us here on the board immediately saw that these hooks weren't coming off, due to good welding, and focused instead on the hooks possibly straightening out under load.

Just a thought.

Greg

Greg

MikePA · Dec 23, 2002

I'm thinking that most if not all of us here on the board immediately saw that these hooks weren't coming off, due to good welding, and focused instead on the hooks possibly straightening out under load. 
That's what I saw. The welding looked fine, it was the 'hooks' I was concerned about.

Anonymous Poster · Dec 23, 2002

I'm still waiting for the pictures of the "straightened hooks". Bet I wait a long time when tractors only pick up less than a ton.

MikePA · Dec 23, 2002

Bet I wait a long time when tractors only pick up less than a ton. 
Perhaps, but what if a newbie to TBN came along with something bigger than a compact tractor and thought these hooks were OK because no one pointed out they were being used in a manner they were not designed for?

Using New Holland as an example, their CUT loaders can lift from 750 lbs to 1,955 lbs. There are several people on this board with TN series tractors, lift capacity of 3,275 to 3,523 lbs, as well as JD 110s, Case 580, etc.

There are at least four ways to solve problems. There are 'Right' solutions, 'Wrong' solutions and 'It's wrong, but it will probably work' solutions. If people are not informed of which are the 'Right' and 'Wrong' solutions, they might end up with the fourth solution...'It's wrong, and it didn't work."

RayBee · Dec 23, 2002

What might go unoticed here is that the lift capacity of the FELis greatly surpassed in force when curling the bucket after youmaxed out the FEL ...RayBee

MikePA · Dec 23, 2002

What might go unoticed here is that the lift capacity of the FELis greatly surpassed in force when curling the bucket after you maxed out the FEL {lifting capacity}
Great point! /w3tcompact/icons/clever.gif

milkman · Dec 25, 2002

here's a hook i installed on the bucket, removable.

Hydraman · Dec 25, 2002

SOMEBODY WITH SOME COMMON SENSE AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!

ebeacham · Dec 25, 2002

It is hard for me to tell, so I will ask. Is that hook held on by a bolt, and if so what is the grade of the bolt?

Anonymous Poster · Jan 7, 2003

Mike, my point is, there is no way THAT tractor will straighten out whatever it is that is welded to that bucket. Not enough hyd. capacity or weight, which determine the tractor's ability to apply force. I don't think there is a hook that is right for all applications, and if someone is using a larger machine, they should have someone authorized to choose and weld hooks on, as the weld will usually be the weak point in amateur installations.

diggerjim · Jan 7, 2003

splitfire_owner
IMO if only lifting by the hydraulics "maybe". But if anyone uses the FEL like I do on my Case hoe, pushing and pulling, the forces applied to the hooks must increase due to the laws of physics. I understand the tractor in question doesn't have the hp of my hoe but has anyone ever hooked a chain to a sapling, raised the bucket, curled, and then tried to move forward or backward? You should see my bucket......Not exactly straight, but its not a toy or for show, its for work. Just a thought. I do agree with you that the hooks must be welded properly, shrapnel flying is extremely dangerous or they wouldn't use it to bring down aircraft. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Anonymous Poster · Jan 7, 2003

I fully understand the power of a Case hoe. We own a 580 Super L 4x4. We had our hooks installed by a die maker who is a certified structural steel welder. That said, I welded my own hooks on my 5400 JD 4x4 loader bucket. I will not be sending a pic in of those, they work fine(daily) under all loads.
The tractor in question is no danger of bending those hooks, period. I am just trying to defend this poor guy. All he's seen is flack since posting a decent job that will be sufficient for what he needs. Everyone responding to this is so concerned about safety, but I doubt a single one uses chain certified for overhead. So where do you call it safe? Build for what you need, use it that way, and don't get under one of the things you pick up with a loader. Period.

Gfranklin · Jan 7, 2003

Keep in mind that the forces the tractor is applying to the hook is only half the game. The bigger unknown is the forces the chain applies to the hook. An example we all probably know is towing a vehicle with a chain. You get a little slack and you get a little out of sync and WHAM! you've spiked the intended forces by an order of magnitude or two. I venture that in most cases, a failure is just an aggravation but for no more than around $3-4, one has now gambled on ALL failures being benign. Not smart. To dkchandlers credit, he boldly ventured an idea, got trounced, then aced the final exam with his new hook. Not bad. There are also probably more lurkers than we think modifying their thinking and actions because of it-an ideal situation and a credit to dkchandler and this forum.

IMO, the "repair link style hooks" have too low a Factor of Safety(FS). A FS is basically how much oversize something is. In designing something, you essentially calculate how big something needs to be to exactly work but no more (think of the straw that broke the camels back). Once this number is determined, then the design is beefed up (multiplied) by a FS to take care of worst case scenarios like shock or impact loadings. In airplanes, the FS is kept low to keep it's overall weight to a minimum in order to maximize payload and fuel capacity and in cars the FS is significantly higher because extra weight is not as big of an evil.

I am of the opinion now that the reason these bootleg hooks were even used in the first place is they were perceived as being easier to weld on for someone unsure of their welding skills (which is unsupported by the pictures). I don't think saving money was the real reason. I could be wrong here but I do know that for a couple more bucks, one could buy a lot more Factor of Safety and you should have some pretty strong reasons if one chooses not to go with more FS.

Greg

Tractors4u · Jan 7, 2003

Oh crap I think I over built my hooks for my 30hp tractor.

jrlichina · Jan 8, 2003

Actually that hook looks like a hook from a tie down strap. So if that is true depending on what the rating of the strap it came from would determine if it's "safe" or not. I have tie down straps rated at 20,000 lbs. (max) and I'm sure those hooks would be strong enough. Maybe BigEddy could let you guys know where the hook came from and what it is rated.

diggerjim · Jan 9, 2003

GFranklin I agree. If I must error (no, when I do) I want it to be on the side of caution.
I cringe when I see someone walking, crawling, laying, etc. under anything supported by a 50cent o-ring, regardless of the type of chain holding the load. Hydraulics are full of em. Maybe its just been too many hydraulics classes./w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif
I respect everyones opinion, this is just mine...