Water in Basement.....Help

[buckeyefarmer]

Did anyone suggest installing a slide..... INdoor Pool...
sorry, couldn't resist this late at night.

 

[scott_vt]

Scotty,

You said, and I can see by the picture that you have some kind of a concrete tube or pipe?? not sure how you plan on utilizing that, but it will not be easy to do what I think you need to do, since you already have that heavy liner you can use it, but you should try to configure it like I mentioned, bring the top up to the floor and the hard part, popping a hole in the side to allow the pipe to enter.

Afternoon John,
You cant see too clearly on my picture but that concrete liner has 2" holes all around the periphery. My thought was that I would bring my 4" pipe up close to the OD of the concrete liner and backfill with my large bankrun stones and then use 1 1/2" crushed rock around the black corrugated drain pipe ? If you think I need to I will pull that drain tile out of there and get something different ! It only cost me $25 bucks.

Im going up to my Vt home this weekend but I will tie up with you next week hopefully ! Have a good weekend !

BTW Buckeye thanks for the thought !

 

[NuBota]

Scott,

I read this post when it first started, cringed when I saw the initial replies (didn't have time to reply), and then lost track of it. But John got you going in the right direction. I did interior drain tile systems years ago and agree with everything he has told you. Interior systems by many companies will be guaranteed for 20 years to lifetime. Ask a company that tears up the outside if they will give that. And interior is a tenth of the cost (or was back in the late '80s) assuming you don't have your own backhoe....

I did a quick read through to catch up - but some variations you can consider - if not too late

1. We always used the 5" asphalt (spade) bit on the Brute when cutting most floors. Cut a fairly straight line and left you larger chunks of concrete to remove. Also helped cutting through the wire and prying up the chunks
2. For the sump we would usually use a clay flu liner instead of the plastic. It was like 13" square and when mud was laid, could be covered with a square piece of plywood (with hole for the cord) that was flush with the floor. Smaller foot print and cheaper than plastic. Trick was "drilling" the 3" holes for the drain tile - very soft touch with chipping gun with pointed bit
3. We always used Little Giant submersible pumps - don't remember the model, but float was internal - very small footprint and no external moving parts. They were expensive - don't know if they even make 'em anymore - but lasted forever.
4. I think I saw your walls were poured, but if block, punch weep holes in the bottom course (in case John didn't mention it) right above the footer. Hyrdostatic pressure can force columns of water up inside the block.
5. If you have any seepage down the wall (usually block again) we would leave an expansion gap, about 1/4" along the wall. Just lay lattice against the wall when pouring the floor. (John may have nentioned this)

Anyway, sounds like you're already well on your way - and John gave excellent advice. Good luck!

-Eric

 

[JB4310]

Afternoon John,
You cant see too clearly on my picture but that concrete liner has 2" holes all around the periphery. My thought was that I would bring my 4" pipe up close to the OD of the concrete liner and backfill with my large bankrun stones and then use 1 1/2" crushed rock around the black corrugated drain pipe ? If you think I need to I will pull that drain tile out of there and get something different ! It only cost me $25 bucks.

Scotty,
You should be fine doing it like that, and it should work for many years, maybe try and line the pipe up with one of those holes if possible, just in case you ever have to open it up to get to the pipe. You will want to use those larger stones/rubble placed loosely around and under the liner and bring the liner up to floor level or a hair lower.
Good luck! John,


Eric,
Part of the reason I felt comfortable giving the detailed advice is because Scotty said the house was in CT, where I'm from, and you know there really isn't one accepted standard when it comes to this business of foundation/basement drainage, it varies greatly from region to region, even within this little state I live in.
For new construction it usually comes down to the excavating contractor and how they've learned to do it, most are still not in agreement on whether footing drains should be put on the inside or outside, they are a very independent type of person and are not going to change the way they do things especially if it has worked for them.
You mention blocks, we have no block foundations around here, I've only seen a couple in my career, but I know what your talking about drilling the bottom blocks, from reading trade publications on the subject and I have to laugh when I hear the word "footer" around hear they are "footings", if I went on a job and mentioned footers, the guys would think I was taking an order to go pick up some long hot dogs for lunch.

 

[NuBota]

John,

What I found interesting was how close your descriptions were to how I was taught. I worked for a small company (no sub work ever) in the DC Metro area with undoubtedly one of the best reputations for the work. I was only there 3 years, but the company for 30 (never had 1 BBB complaint) and we worked year round over 40 hr weeks. I would say a quarter or the work we did was re-doing systems put in by the big advertised companies and builders. In three years I ran only 3 or 4 service calls - systems we installed 15-20 years before - to only change out failed pumps.

I have given advice to co workers that are building new or having a system put in so they can make sure it is done right. It is nice to hear someone providing the same good advice. My impression is that nowadays contractors do the bare minimum, as you mentioned.

The comment I made about outside work was made clear to me on a job we did in a neighborhood. We were doing full perimeter and charging about $6K for the interior system. Two houses down - same exact model house - were digging up the outside perimeter - $30K - the same week we were there. The neighbors hadn't talked before having the work done, but "outside" folks came down when they saw us - ask the owners about the price and warranty and almost passed out - they were getting no warranty for leakage.

My take was always that outside work CAN solve your water problem, but inside ALWAYS will. Only time we would dig outside was to repair wall cracks or tie in window wells. I remember cutting through the floor on one job to find the slab "floating" on water. Outside work won't stop water table percolating up. I had another one, 60 yo house, blocks filled with columns of water, slab floating. Set the chipping gun against the bottom block, above the "footing" to drill holes and it went straight in - never pulled the trigger - could practically punch through with my finger - scariest thing I ever saw. Next morning, after we pumped out the water - solid as new block.

Funny about the terminology thing - had cousins from CT and they always had a similar reaction.

Anyway, enough reminiscing - can you tell I miss those days? IT work pales in comparison....

 

[scott_vt]

Good Evenin John & Eric,
I just wanted to take a short minute to thank you both for your excellent replies, and very informative input on the subject of cellar drainage and waterproofing ! Im hoping to get back into this job mid week just intime for the monsoon rains predicted !

I will keep you both updated with any new progress ! Thanks !

 

[scott_vt]

Good Evenin Guys,
Had a little bit of time tonite John, and was able to raise the drain tile tube up to floor level ! I used a couple of clamps to wrestle it up to floor height ! I also was able to get my prybar through that center section underneath the middle section of flooring that I didnt jackhammer up for floor support. This way whatever water is in the far section of the trench will drain to the sump liner !

I have tommorrow off, and they are predicting heavy rain so hopefully I can get some more work done on this project ! John, I put some 1 1/2" thick block down in the bottom of the drain liner for the pump to sit on. Hopefully thats OK !

 

[JB4310]

John, I put some 1 1/2" thick block down in the bottom of the drain liner for the pump to sit on. Hopefully thats OK !

Scotty,
Yes, you want a flat stable/level base for your pump, you can put an inch or 2 of the crushed stone under the patio block, that helps you shift the block around to get it as level as possible, a little trick to this, if there is water in the pit like in your case, is to pump the water out, leaving enough to just cover the surface of the block, then you don't need a level since the water surface will be true level in all planes, just move the stone around till the top of the block match's the surface of the water.
I see the holes in the liner you referred to, is there more than 1 row of those holes? if possible try to line the pipe up with one of the holes, but don't lower or raise the pipe more than a couple inches from the pipe path's plane along the footing. Ideally the pump would be set up to go on before the water level reachs the bottom of the pipe, that allows the water to always drain out and prevent sediment build up in the pipe.

Eric,
I am in full agreement with you about the advantages of doing the work on the inside, I just didn't want to push my agenda since like I said earlier, others believe as strongly that the outside is the way to go. I can just say that 99% of our work is on the inside, we wont even patch cracks from the outside (don't patch cracks at all) we make what we call an in wall channel drain, where we cut the crack (on the inside) about 2" deep and 1.5" wide, all the way down under the floor then we put a bridging material in the channel and cement over it leaving a hollow core in the wall crack and a hole at the bottom under the floor to drain out into the footing pipe. Never had a call back on one of these, everyone wants a guarantee and you just can not guarantee a patch, no matter how it's done IMO.

I do tell people that anything the can do on the outside would be helpful, but nothing they do will stop the water on the inside.

A couple of pics showing the in wall channel drain and what we do when those window wells (area wells) turn into aquariums, call it a window well overflow drain. we didn't invent these methods but have improved on them.

 

[scott_vt]

Scotty,

I see the holes in the liner you referred to, is there more than 1 row of those holes? if possible try to line the pipe up with one of the holes, but don't lower or raise the pipe more than a couple inches from the pipe path's plane along the footing. Ideally the pump would be set up to go on before the water level reachs the bottom of the pipe, that allows the water to always drain out and prevent sediment build up in the pipe.

Good Evenin Guys,
I did get some quality work time in on this project today ! John, yes there are two sets of holes around the liner, a few inches in from both ends are a series of 6- 2" holes around the perimeter.

As you can see in the first picture I managed to get the pump installed in the liner today. Although it didnt go as fast as I thought it would because, when I went and bought a 2" hole saw and arbor yesterday I got the wrong arbor ! I drove back to the store today and got the proper arbor and then realized that my 3/8" drill wasnt going to work, I needed a 1/2" drill ! At that point I said screw it and used my good 2" forstner bit and got lucky enough not to hit any nails !

In the second picture you can see where I just layed the drain pipe in the trench with the right angle drain stuck on the end of the pipe. I also managed to get my lanscape cloth cut to size but not installed yet.

At this point if the trench fills with water the pump will take care of it, which makes me feel pretty good at this time ! Next time I can work on it I will need to get some 1 1/2" crushed stone and install my pipe.

I believe that you said earlier that I want the top of the drain pipe to be about even with the top of the footer ??? Thanks again !

 

[WayneB]

Nice work Scotty, been following your story and really feel for you! No amount of words can express how hard it is to go down, as I call it, to the Panama cannel in the cellar to move the water. We have a very old portion of our house with a field stone cellar wall. Last year it was like a small Niagara Falls flowing into the cellar. So this past summer I cut a trench around the floor of the old cellar and directed the flow into a sump area and I can pump the water out of the old cellar. I then started sealing the wall. This meant taking out the old cement that was put in there years ago, cleaning up the stone edges and putting in new cement.

This is just the start of the spring melt off, but so far the walls are holding up. I am sure there will be water coming in, but at least it will go to the sump area and be pumped out.
Got to love these two hundred year old houses.

Wayne

 

[NuBota]

Scotty, excellent work. Like John said before, you have done a better job than what many contractors would have have. Actually thought about you when the rain hit here last night (before going on "tornado watch"). Sounds like you made out!

John - Agree with you on crack repair. But always had a few that insisted we do it from the outside, so we would do it.

Now the window well pics - never saw that way but I like it. We would dig out the well -shovel at the top and PHD as we worked down the outside wall - like a funnel - to the footer, er, footing. Then we would punch through the wall at the footing, run drain tile vertically then through the wall into the system - then fill well with gravel. Talk about a workout using the PHD laying on your stomach head first in the hole....

 

[scott_vt]

Scotty, excellent work. Like John said before, you have done a better job than what many contractors would have have. Actually thought about you when the rain hit here last night (before going on "tornado watch"). Sounds like you made out!

Good Evenin Guys,
Well the old Dodge got a work out today, a full load of oak got hauled home and then and went and bought 1 yard of crushed 1 1/2" gravel, that weighed in at 1.33 ton ! Didnt break any leaf springs but she was squattin pretty good !

Times like this I sure wish I owned a dump !!!

Eric, were makin a bit of progress, sure wish I had my bucket loader in Ct instead of Vt !

 

[WayneB]

That is a load! Wonder how long the brown garbage can will hold up to the load going down cellar!

 

[scott_vt]

That is a load! Wonder how long the brown garbage can will hold up to the load going down cellar!

Evenin Wayne,
How you doin Bud ?

Im more worried about how long the back will hold out !!!

 

[JB4310]

Scotty,
That stone is a little big, typical size 3/4", I thought it was just a typo on your part when I read your post about the 1.5" stone from the other night, sorry I didn't say something. There's nothing wrong with larger stone as long as you have the room in your trench to bed the pipe in. the only problem will be at the top, over the pipe and on top of the footing, you need 1.5-2 inches of concrete over the top so that only leaves a couple of inches between the top of the footing and the bottom of the concrete, with such large stone it's hard to level off.
You might have to loosely lay a single layer of stone on top of the footing and pipe, then cover it with a heavy plastic to prevent the concrete from getting down in between the stone and filling the needed voids.
Like I said, nothing wrong with larger stone as it leaves larger voids, just might be a little harder to work with. Good luck, it's raining hard tonight and supposed to be worse tomorrow afternoon, my business has been picking up the last few weeks with all the rain.

 

[scott_vt]

Scotty,
That stone is a little big, typical size 3/4", I thought it was just a typo on your part when I read your post about the 1.5" stone from the other night, sorry I didn't say something. There's nothing wrong with larger stone as long as you have the room in your trench to bed the pipe in.

Like I said, nothing wrong with larger stone as it leaves larger voids, just might be a little harder to work with. Good luck, it's raining hard tonight and supposed to be worse tomorrow afternoon, my business has been picking up the last few weeks with all the rain.

Mornin John,
Glad your business is picking up, I can see why, the ground just cant absorb any more water period !!!

I just have to say how unbelievably nice it is to go down into my basement this mornin and not have puddles all over the place !!! Let it rain baby !!!

Hey john, Im an experienced basement water proofer now !

That was a slight typo on the gravel size, its actually 1 1/4", which is still a bit large, but yes I was planning on putting a layer of plastic over the top of the stone. I believe you stated earlier that I really only need about 2" of concrete ? What do you suggest, the premix stuff ? I will be using a tub and my trusty hoe !

Oh yes, for anyone following this thread, I cant emphasize how important that hoe was for digging out the trench for the pipe, its a must have IMHO !

 

[NuBota]

Scotty, not to answer FOR John - but my suggestion in not to use the pre-mix. With only a couple of inches it is a little harder to put down with a smooth finish. We always just mixed portland and sand - no aggregate - call it cement, not concrete. And we always mixed by hoe and tub - transporting with the wonderful 5 gal buckets. John may have a different opinion

As far as the gravel, like John said, as long as you can cover the drain tile and footing, you should be good. I don't recall how deep you went - we always went 12-14 inches (graded to the sump) and used 3" tile - so 1.5 or 1.25 bluestone worked fine. If the footing was "high" we would use 3/4 on it. Only time we used 3/4 for the whole trench was when we couldn't get the larger stone

And I must say you did a heck of a quality job - you will not regret the work. And you have to feel "pumped" - bucket brigade is a manly upper body workout -especially for the forearms.....

 

[scott_vt]

And I must say you did a heck of a quality job - you will not regret the work. And you have to feel "pumped" - bucket brigade is a manly upper body workout -especially for the forearms.....

Good Mornin Eric,
Thanks for the reply, its also great to be able to drink beer and not gain any weight ! Thats a huge plus IMO ! Im closin in on 57 and Im feelin that Im in pretty good shape after this project !

 

[scott_vt]

Afternoon Boys,
Well we are gettin close to the end of this project !

I layed in the landscape fabric, held it down with a little gravel and layed in my pipe. Then started lugging in garbage can after garbage can of crushed gravel ! I still need a bit more down there but the old back cant take much more today !

Looking back on this project, the single most valuable bit of advice I have garnered, was the suggestion by John, to go with the black perforated corrugated pipe rather than the white pcv pipe with the double set of holes ! That little tip right there will keep this system operating for many many years to come, trouble free !

I will probablly post one final segment on the final wrap up of the " Pouring of the Concrete "

Thanks to all that have helped me get through this project !

 

[WayneB]

Scotty things are nice and wet up here in NH! Some many reasons I prefer snow at this time of the year. got my first signs of Mud Season today so it won't be too long and we will need planks to get across from sidewalk to sidewalk.

By the way 57 puts you smack in the AARP arena and you are just a short distance away from the Olde Farts Club! Working on the cellar project will put years on your life, or take them off, not sure which.

Have a good weekend and a few beers down cellar watching the water flow away.

Wayne