Update on loader repair program from Kioti Jan 30

[Bob_Skurka]

and can honestly say my Kioti was a better value than any comparable Kubota or NH

And that is a discussion for a "comparison thread, until Tom brought up the subject there were no brand comparison, nor should there be in this thread.

As for the safety issue, it was alleged by Kioti owners and by others, in various posts in various threads. In this thread I simply countered the statement that the cracks are nothing but cosmetic, when there is no evidence to prove that point. And given that the cracks are reported to continue to grow, it is clearly likely that they are structural. And while nobody has been hurt yet, it does not make it less of a safety issue.


I was simply attempting to put some balance into the thread when in one post so many unsubstantiated allegations that needed to be addressed with simple counterpoints.

 

[Dodgeram]

More than a few folks over on the Kubota forum and the NH forum considered them safety issues.
No one, and I may be wrong, on the Kioti forum has remotely inferred that the loader issue was a safety issue. Well, maybe you did in the response to Cota. Like I stated previously, I will bow to your knowledge on safety issues.

Back to the issue at hand, and please answer this for me, how many Kioti loader cracks have you seen? 10, 15, 50?
How many have failed? Again 10, 20, 50?

Moderators, fear not, I promise I will not be baited into any further discussions with Mr. Skurka concerning the loader issues. I will hereby acknowledge his superior understanding of the Kioti Tractor/Corporation, gained from extensive reading on the Kioti forum.

I do own a Kioti, which I use on a regular basis.

KJ, where are you?

Tom

 

[kentrodngun]

KJ, where are you?

Tom

Lurking in the shadows until everyone in the sandbox learns to play nice. Come back KJ, we miss you.

 

[Limecuda]

And that is a discussion for a "comparison thread, until Tom brought up the subject there were no brand comparison, nor should there be in this thread.

As for the safety issue, it was alleged by Kioti owners and by others, in various posts in various threads. In this thread I simply countered the statement that the cracks are nothing but cosmetic, when there is no evidence to prove that point. And given that the cracks are reported to continue to grow, it is clearly likely that they are structural. And while nobody has been hurt yet, it does not make it less of a safety issue.


I was simply attempting to put some balance into the thread when in one post so many unsubstantiated allegations that needed to be addressed with simple counterpoints.

I appreciate your concern and thread steering. If it is indeed a safety issue (Kioti thus far says otherwise) then instead of them proving it is not, how about you prove it is.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

If it is indeed a safety issue (Kioti thus far says otherwise) then instead of them proving it is not, how about you prove it is.

Why is it that a kioti owner can make a wild claim and nobody says anything but when a non-kioti owner simply points out that other kioti owners have stated the opposite then the non-kioti owner is attacked? Are you folks that sensative that you cannot even hear what some of your fellow owners have said? Instead of listening to your own owners must you take knee jerk positions?

I've not levied one bit of criticizm about the brand in this thread, I've only pointed out that someone made some claims that many others have refuted.

What a silly turn of events and what thin skins some folks have here.

 

[CurlyDave]

...Zero proof that it's a safety factor...

Well, I don't own a Kioti, and I don't have a cracked loader, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can tell you that where I work any lifting device, which shows any sign of failure (and any cracks would be a sign of failure) would be scrapped immediately. No ifs, ands, or buts. And, no repairs. Now if an entire overhead crane failed, it might be repaired in place, but it would be x-rayed and proof loaded before it was put back in service.

It makes no difference if the device is used for overhead lifting or to hold ballast two inches off the floor. This is a stict safety policy and one of the few ways someone can get fired for a first offense, with no recourse.

You may say there is "no safety issue", but in my neck of the woods you would say it all the way down to the unemployment line. The union is 100% on board with this policy.

You might think this is complete overkill, but we also inspect every lifting device before every lift, and proof load it once a year. And, we still manage to kill a few people when something falls.

I am truly amazed at the way Kioti handled this. Their potential liability is enormous. It would have been far better to contract with an aftermarket loader supplier and replace all of them on an expedited basis than the stunt they have pulled.

And, no matter how good they are in other ways, and how cost-effective, you will never catch me owning one.

 

[Steve_Miller]

Here we go again?

Steve

 

[Dodgeram]

Sorry, you lost me after I saw "Unions".

 

[coasterez]

The safety issue hasn't been proven to the public either way. Kioti may have proved it to themselves. But, until they share that data and convince us all, each person is only expressing their opinion on whether it affects safety.

My opinion: I can't see how the cross tube affects safety unless coupled with another failure. Isn't this cross member there to provide lateral rigidity such that the bucket remains level and loads are equally distributed between lift cylinders/arms? If you cut the cross member completely out, wouldn't the bucket still operate? It might twist, if one cylinder is weeker/slower than another, and/or if the load is unbalanced. But, unless a cylinder fails, I don't see where a failure of the cross member by itself would cause harm. It's a lateral support, not a vertical (lift) support. The loader will neither raise nor drop based on its presence or absence.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Isn't this cross member there to provide lateral rigidity such that the bucket remains level and loads are equally distributed between lift cylinders/arms?

The torque tube's main jobs are to: 1) stabilize the load across both loader arms and effectively impart very similar weight onto each cylinder, which 2) also balances the weight to both the left & right sides of the tractor. Balancing the load on the tractor is the real critical point.

If the torque tube breaks, and if the load in the bucket is heavy on one side, the that side will drop and will compound the problem by shifting even more load to the heavy side, consequently the weight can shift to one side of the tractor which can cause the tractor to roll/tip.

 

[4sarge]

More than a few folks over on the Kubota forum and the NH forum considered them safety issues.
No one, and I may be wrong, on the Kioti forum has remotely inferred that the loader issue was a safety issue. Well, maybe you did in the response to Cota. Like I stated previously, I will bow to your knowledge on safety issues.

Back to the issue at hand, and please answer this for me, how many Kioti loader cracks have you seen? 10, 15, 50?
How many have failed? Again 10, 20, 50?

Moderators, fear not, I promise I will not be baited into any further discussions with Mr. Skurka concerning the loader issues. I will hereby acknowledge his superior understanding of the Kioti Tractor/Corporation, gained from extensive reading on the Kioti forum.

I do own a Kioti, which I use on a regular basis.

KJ, where are you?

Tom

Tom, Tom, Tom..... and that is your problem. You actually own and operate a Kioti, silly boy.

You missed the whole point. Simply Owning and Operating a Kioti doesn't give you a voice about Kioti's, Kioti opinions are held in high regard by those who do not own Kioti, who do not operate a Kioti but who can post on about every topic to raise their total number of posts. It's the number of posts that you have not the quality or sincerity of your answers. If your selling other brands, sipping a cold one on your Craftsman rider (excuse me.. Lawn Tractor) or simply a keyboard commando sitting behind your desk - then you are indeed a Kioti expert.

I own a Kioti, do not have a cracked loader but feel that Kioti hasn't been on top of this loader situation which has taken on a life of it's own (and maybe rightfully so) It's hard for me to believe that in this day and age Kioti would set themselves up for potential product liability law suits. My stance from the beginning is if your Kioti is affected and Kioti isn't listening, and you are not happy, then I would seek competent advice from someone who is versed in civil remedies. If this is a potential hazard for health or safety, one would think that Kioti would see the handwriting on the wall and act before someone is possibly injured unless Kioti is firmly positive that these are only cosmetic defects. I do believe that Kioti should stand behind it's customers, repair this PR disaster and make amends with those affected. I'm not an attorney, not a PR person but a consumer (Kioti Owner) and do not feel that Kioti has handled this matter appropriately or at least to the satisfaction of those here at TBN. It's hard to navigate (length) and separate comments from those who actually own and or affected by actual loader cracks on this model. I would think that if this is an engineering or product defect, warranty expiration not withstanding wouldn't be an issue in a successful civil action. If it is truly nothing more than cosmetic then Kioti would probably be successful in a civil action but would lose trust and sales in a Public Relations nightmare. If someone were to be injured, Kioti (IMO) could be held civilly ($$$) and criminally liable for not correcting this.

But again, I do not know, I'm not an expert, or a bored tractor salesman, and do not claim to be an expert, but do own a Toro Rider (whew hew), Husqvarna Lawn Tractor and a Kioti.

I'm sure that there will be offense taken by some from this post that is not actually intended. Can we just post legitimate replies and attempt to inform or at least give an honest constructive opinion or just pass and let someone else answer. I doubt it

 

[Cota]

My apologies for the misinformed, over emotional propoganda ridden comment. My mistake for not being more clear concerning my whole experience with this mess. I in fact own a brand new(bought Jan.07') CK30and am super dissapointed that I ended up (due to my trust and lack of awareness) the outdated and so called inferior loader. My dealer urged me to contact Kioti customer relations and even provided the proper contact information. I contacted Kioti and of course I was told politely not to worry and all the proper testing had been done to prove the cracks are cosmetic and there is no safety issue.(sarcasm)
Whether its incompetence by the dealer or deception from Kioti who knows and seems like bad energy to hash it to death. My mistake for trying to say something positive in hopes others and myself might feel better about the problem. Hey by the way---Kioti is a great tractor.

 

[kraftykeltic]

cracks so far are only on the inspection plate side if there are cracks. I would worry if the cracks appear on the topside of the torque tube.

I have one of the loaders in question and am truly trying to develop cracks on the top side of the torque tube. When that happens I will worry.

If I break it they will fix it.

 

[coasterez]

Bob,

You make a good point about tipping if the load shifts. In such a case, Kioti would be liable, I would think. I only know a little about hydraulics. So, how readily the arms would become unbalanced, and to what degree that the load would have to be unbalanced to cause tip over, I am not sure. Of course identfying occurnances is complicated because you can turn a tractor over with an unbalanced load in any loader. No matter, if roll over is of high probability, then obviously this could be a serious safety concern. If this were the case, and it was this obvious, I would be surprised if Kioti would not have taken action more quickly. But, they may not be as smart as I think they are.

I'm not sure how this got turned into a safety issue. The real issue is only partly (if at all, some would argue) about safety. I know this is very high on your priority list, Bob, and I commend you for standing up for safety accross many forums. However, I think (my opinion again) that the over all quality and long term performance of the loader are of much greater issue, at least they are to me.

For the sake of arguement, let's say Kioti will eventual fix everyone's loaders and 15 years from now most are still in service, and no one is killed or seriously injured by the "defect". Then what's the issue? It's what many have said: Kioti communications.

The most likely outcome is that Kioti will step up and fix everybody. That's almost assured. The long term question of will the loader hold up,...well we all will just have to wait and see. Us owners can either bailout and sell for a different machine, or fix it and hope for the best. I'm in for the fix myself, and expect to get a long life out of my tractor and loader. But, I've been wrong before.

This is one poor dead horse, and Kioti is to blame! I'm ready for my fix before spring gets here. Aren't the dealers busy enough in the spring anyway?

 

[UncleBuck01]

Tom, Tom, Tom..... and that is your problem. You actually own and operate a Kioti, silly boy.

You missed the whole point. Simply Owning and Operating a Kioti doesn't give you a voice about Kioti's, Kioti opinions are held in high regard by those who do not own Kioti, who do not operate a Kioti but who can post on about every topic to raise their total number of posts. It's the number of posts that you have not the quality or sincerity of your answers. If your selling other brands, sipping a cold one on your Craftsman rider (excuse me.. Lawn Tractor) or simply a keyboard commando sitting behind your desk - then you are indeed a Kioti expert.


But again, I do not know, I'm not an expert, or a bored tractor salesman, and do not claim to be an expert, but do own a Toro Rider (whew hew), Husqvarna Lawn Tractor and a Kioti.

Well Said, surprised your post reply is still here . maybe you'll get lucky and he'll put you on his ignore list,

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Bob,

You make a good point about tipping if the load shifts. . . I only know a little about hydraulics. So, how readily the arms would become unbalanced, and to what degree that the load would have to be unbalanced to cause tip over, I am not sure.

Load shifting leading to tractor tipping is always a problem in a loader, even without the cracking issue. While we all tend to scoop up dirt, sand or clay without much shifting, try to move some large granite cobblestones or stone slabs. Those things often shift inside the bucket. Even working on perfectly flat asphalt you can have a load of cobble shift in the bucket and if it happens when you are making a slow speed sharp turn the tractor can be on 2 wheels before you can blink.

As for the hydraulics, they are all connected in a series with one after the other. Taking an extreme hypothetical example of a loader without a torque tube, if the bucket is loaded at/near its capacity and much of the load is in the left side of the bucket then the left side of the bucket will sag on that side, that alone will unbalance the tractor. The torque tube keeps the loader arms at the same level regardless of the load. Realize that the capacity of the loader is the total of BOTH cylinders so if the load is unbalanced on one side and there is no torque tube, then the cylinder on that side will actually compress. The tractor may become unstable and roll onto its side even on flat ground, add uneven ground, bumps, etc and it is more likely. The same problem would occure if the torque tube cracked through.

 

[IslandTractor]

I agree with Bob and others who have identified the critical potential safety issue: cracking that could suddenly cause the torque tube to separate under load especially if the tractor is moving with a heavy load. I don't know whether the problem would be as great if it snapped while lifting a load while stopped though I could imagine a scenario where the tractor could tip there too.

The cracks on my loader were first noticed a year ago when I had approximately 50 hours on the tractor. Last Fall, after another 40-50 hours of fairly loader intensive brush clearing, the cracks had clearly extended and are now visible without removing the inspection plate. I don't see any reason that with continued normal use and flexing of the torque tube why these cracks would not continue to spread. For the moment the loader is functioning normally so Kioti's claim that these are "cosmetic" cracks is somewhat valid but the potential for failure is there and who knows exactly when that will occur. I would imagine the straw that breaks the loader's back will be a relatively innocuous event such as the extra stress produced when driving with a full FEL load and hitting a bump or hole that causes the load to bounce. That is exactly the dynamic scenario where a sudden catastrophic failure and subsequent shifting of the load could potentially (?easily) cause the tractor to tip over. I wear my seatbelt and have a ROPS but don't like the idea that could happen while moving as tipping over onto a rock or stump or tree or fence or you name it obstruction could still be very dangerous.

I for one am underwhelmed by Kioti's engineering analysis that concludes these are cosmetic cracks. Why should we believe the reassurances about this being a "cosmetic" issue. For starters, these are presumably the same engineers who couldn't order the right size bolts or even figure out that there have been production changes that require different sized repair kits. What kind of testing did they do to stress the loaders and did it mimic real world conditions or was it just a few hours of lifting in controlled conditions? It is kinda hard to have much confidence in advice or reassurances from a group that cannot get this problem figured out and solved within 12 months.

 

[HODAK]

For starters, these are presumably the same engineers who couldn't order the right size bolts or even figure out that there have been production changes that require different sized repair kits. What kind of testing did they do to stress the loaders and did it mimic real world conditions or was it just a few hours of lifting in controlled conditions? It is kinda hard to have much confidence in advice or reassurances from a group that cannot get this problem figured out and solved within 12 months.

I'm sorry, but I have to chuckle a bit at all of this stuff - just a little. Island - I decided to take just part of your post, but the whole thing is right on. The safety issue is not something that in my opinion needs much discussion. I'm not an engineer, but I can't see that tube cracking all the way around. Cosmetic? I suppose so, but any crack should be repaired and not addressed with a comment like, "we haven't seen any failures". Wrong bolts, different sized tubes, etc...... I thought that's what serial numbers were for? You know, my number is ******* and so they should know exactly what you have, date of manufacture and so on. It just seems like more and more problems these days have to be handled by the consumer. Like Island says, who did the testing? Looks like the consumer does the testing these days no matter what you buy. Tractor or whatever. Some owner discovers that his torque tube is a different size and it's a surprise??? It's just not KIOTI either. How many times have you heard a serviceman or manufacturer's rep say "Gee, never saw that before". Engineers - give me a break...........

The bright side of all this for me is that I mentioned to my wife about a cab tractor and she said go ahead, what are you waiting for? So, this consumer will handle it in his own way. I'm fortunate to have this option. (An understanding wife is a plus also). It's a shame because I really like everything about the tractor itself - the weight, size, power, hydro, etc.. Wait, how much would a Woods loader cost? I see they have come out with curved arm loaders. Uh oh, hope my wife doesn't find out how much can be saved if I just buy a new loader instead of the cab model that I've been checking on. I hope there is a resolution real soon so I can keep this tractor and maybe buy some more implements instead. Ok, that's my .02 for the day.

By the way, I thought Bob Skurka's comments were just fine.........

 

[shvl73]

The bright side of all this for me is that I mentioned to my wife about a cab tractor and she said go ahead, what are you waiting for? So, this consumer will handle it in his own way. I'm fortunate to have this option. (An understanding wife is a plus also). It's a shame because I really like everything about the tractor itself - the weight, size, power, hydro, etc.. Wait, how much would a Woods loader cost? I see they have come out with curved arm loaders. Uh oh, hope my wife doesn't find out how much can be saved if I just buy a new loader instead of the cab model that I've been checking on. I hope there is a resolution real soon so I can keep this tractor and maybe buy some more implements instead. Ok, that's my .02 for the day.

By the way, I thought Bob Skurka's comments were just fine.........

There are times where I wish I had a cab, blowing snow when its windy, for example. I usually am working alone so if it was raining, I'd be on and off the tractor anyway and still getting wet.
I still mostly prefer being out in the elements, even mowing for hours when its really hot out. I guess thats why I prefer my bike to my car.
The guys with the Woods loaders seem to like them but, what good is having two loaders for one tractor? I hope you guys get some good news soon on your loader issues.

 

[MossRoad]

It is faily obvious that everyone agrees on the three following items:

1. Yes, there are cracks.
2. Yes, they should be repaired.
3. Yes, it is taking the company too long to get them repaired.

There isn't much left to talk about other than updates to the status of the repair process at this point so please refrain from the name calling/brand loyalty wars, etc... thanks.