Update on loader repair program from Kioti Jan 30

[mrutkaus]

Well written, Islandtractor. It exposes an inbred, secretive sort of culture. Possibly formed generations ago.

Mike

 

[joe48]

On the other hand, my loader has been working great even though it's cracked. I just keep plugging along doing anything I want with it.

When they get the repair dialed in I'll get it fixed and move along. Just a minor bump in the road in the long haul.

It really hits home when my buddys stop in and ask hows the tractor been ? I stop, and think, Hum, this thing been great.

My sentiments exactly, my loader is cracked and I haven't given it a second thought, just keep on working. When the fix is ready we'll get it fixed.
In the meantime I have more important things to worry about.
I suppose some may think my attitude is rather casual, but I'd say its more practical and probably comes from growing up on the farm , where you had problems and setbacks everyday, but you deal with it and take one day at a time.
Just remember God doesn't give you any bigger problems to deal with than you can handle !!!! If a cracked loader is your biggest problem ,then you are blessed !!!

 

[450EXC]

Well written, Islandtractor. It exposes an inbred, secretive sort of culture. Possibly formed generations ago.

Mike

Ut Oh, Probably wont be getting any free tee shirts with your repair kit now.

 

[Steverino]

IslandTractor I agree with your holding Kioti’s paws to the fire in an attempt to get them to be a good corporate citizen. If they want to run with the big dogs then they have to abandon their fly-by-night demeanor. I think reasonable consumers understand that it is an imperfect world and that issues arise, it is how those issues are handles that is the crux of this discussion. I weigh in on the side of reasonable communication and assurance that the issue is being addressed. Perhaps for those less privileged than those of us here who know of and participate on TBN would be an announcement on their website or direct mailing warning of a possible malfunction and to contact a dealer to make repairs. Instead all we have seen from them is a hodgepodge of contradictory information randomly released through their dealer force. This is a Kioti problem not a dealer problem, yet they have chosen to hide behind their dealers and from their consuming public. What they did is to allow their best and brightest dealers to become their apologists, the dealers risking their reputations and livelihoods trying to quell the discontent. In my case this discontent that has swelled to disgust. I feel that I for one am more than a simple consumer of their products. and I would venture to say it’s a pretty safe bet that most anyone who frequents this site is as well. I would categorize myself at the minimum an enthusiasts of “this thing of ours” (to steal a phrase, I hope the mob don’t mind ) and at times I go beyond enthusiasm to where I have actual cravings for seat-time, if you know what I mean! I will allow others to define their own pathology, perhaps a fan club member of sorts with some maybe groupies but for most perhaps it is more of simply an avocation or please feel free to fill-in your own definition. If for you though, this were merely a tool, than I think it becomes obvious then that the other people would have a different feelings about the current state of affairs.

I have cracks on my loader and have abandoned any hope of having Kioti fix it correctly, timely or conveniently. As soon as warmer weather appears I intend to fix it myself in a proper manner.

I concur with IslandTractor that Kioti may be making a grave error in not adjusting their corporate culture and attitude to this market because enthusiasts and hobbyist will start to abandon them. Lets not forget “The customer is always right”!

 

[Cota]

As I stated earlier there are far more important issues in life to deal with besides a cracked loader but as a consumer I feel it is our responsibility to voice otherwise we would end up with a world of inferior overpriced crap. The main issue is Kioti will eventually fix or bandaid the problem and yes--stuff happens but the principal issue is the evasiveness and deception involved for the new buyers that were not disclosed this information.
The company I rep for could NEVER sweep anything under the rug and expect to maintain or grow in sales. In a case like this we would warranty any failure with an updated product, production methods would change and a bulletin would have gone out to all dealers immediately with full explanation and how to deal with it.
Standing up for principals creates the changes necessary for a decent world to live in.

 

[Oleozz]

What they did is to allow their best and brightest dealers to become their apologists, the dealers risking their reputations and livelihoods trying to quell the discontent. ”!

Since that seems to be the case lets hope that the dealers are voicing their opinions, loud and clear, to Kioti. Let's also hope that they convey the message to Kioti that this is ultimately, in the long run, going to hurt everyone, customers, dealers, and the company.

 

[Highbeam]

Now that I have been "outed" as someone who posts on TBN, the otherwise very fine customer service folks at Kioti will no longer tell me much of anything.

Have you noticed that too? I have a very hard time getting any response from them these days.

 

[IslandTractor]

As I stated earlier there are far more important issues in life to deal with besides a cracked loader.

Cota I share your sentiments and Steverino's too. I count myself as a fan of my CK20 and I have gotten a lot of work done even with the cracked loader. I don't want to blow the actual engineering problem out of proportion, it is ultimately fixable and to my knowledge has not stopped anyone from getting full use of their tractor (well maybe poor Highbeam lost a month or so with his repair fiasco last year). I'd recommend a CK20/KL120 to anyone with similar needs to mine and I don't think there is a better bang for the buck out there in this class.

I am just continually amazed that the corporate Kioti people, who I would like to assume are reasonable businessmen, think that in this era of TBN and other internet based means for like minded individuals (read Kioti owners and prospective owners) to communicate rapidly will not quickly disseminate information and expect a corporate culture that understands that. As some non Kioti owners have pointed out repeatedly, there is a much (??10 fold) higher concentration of Kioti owners on TBN than in the real world. You'd think that corporate Kioti would therefore be particularly responsive and careful to insure future good vs bad publicity in that case. Unfortunately, they seem to all have been educated in the Ford Pinto school of management and that is a shame.

 

[RedRocker]

Unfortunately, they seem to all have been educated in the Ford Pinto school of management and that is a shame.

Now wait a minute, my tractor isn't gonna explode if I get hit in the rear is it?

 

[Steverino]

Someday there may be a case study in a business school contrasting the how to do it and how not to do it approach to corporate PR problems. I'm pretty sure Kioti senor management has earned a secure spot on the "don't do it this way" roster.

Here is a follow up on IslandTractors business school 101 case studies; I would include in the syllabus the Apple vs. IBM desktop competition in the early 1980’s. A time when desktop computing first appeared and Apple had adeptly employed General Sherman’s Civil War adage of “getting there first with the most”. At the onset they had a huge leg-up on IBM. Without digressing into too much detail I will simply state that it was generally recognized that Apple had better hardware, better software (more stable), and a better user interface than IBM. Apple also through shrewd marketing techniques, had greater market exposure by giving away computers to schools and other learning institutions, ensuring familiarity with their products and free training for the corporations that would eventually hire those students. So what happened, why isn’t Apple the de facto computing standard throughout the world? Now I know Apple has not disappeared and does have a niche market and somewhat of a cult following, but how could they be the easy forerunner with a superior product and fall so far behind? The answer: “ENTHUSIASTS”. Enthusiasts flocked to IBM and IBM clones because of the open architecture IBM offered. Open architecture simply stated allowed third parties to produce peripherals and software for IBM computers marketed directly to the general public. Apple didn’t. So in implementing these marketing maneuvers, IBM had third parties at no cost to them, bringing forth hardware and software that complimented and enhanced their basic machine and operating system. Now, the enthusiasts were able to tinker with these machines and that in turn increased their popularity multifold. Shortly the variety of equipment and software that became available for IBM based machines overwhelmed Apple. The rest as they say is history. Having been involved in desktop computing at the dawn of the industry as an enthusiast, I was one of the early defectors. I lost complete interest in Apple and spent all my time and money on IBM compatible equipment and software. The computer enthusiast in my opinion was the primary driving force for general acceptance of industry in choosing IBM over Apple. Many of the enthusiasts that I knew and associated with in those times became the computer geeks that were hired by industry to manage their computing needs and subsequently influenced the decision making processes.
So the moral of the story is “Don’t S---W with the enthusiasts”.

 

[HODAK]

Nice story.......

My loader has cracks.......

 

[Cota]

Regardless of the loader issue I still would buy Kioti. The current design may have a cosmetic flaw after many hours of hard use but after talking directly to Kioti customer relations I feel confident their intentions of attending to this issue are genuine, just delayed. These loaders have been tested under extreme conditions for many tweak cycles and they found that they could not damage the torque box beyond the cosmetic cracks. They new they did not have a safety issue but decided to redesign the torque box differently to eliminate this issue completely. They also did inform all the dealers so it was entirely up to the dealer to choose whether or not to disclose this to potential buyers. Correct explanation of the issue I believe would not have blown any sales--just built more confidence in Kioti. These are great tractors!

 

[IslandTractor]

These are great tractors!

Agree. The tractors deserve better corporate communication efforts to keep their customers informed.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

The current design may have a cosmetic flaw after many hours of hard

Many of them cracked with light use, as stated here on TBN many times. Further, to claim this is strickly a cosmetic claw is not substantiated by any engineering, and if the cracks continue to grow (as many here stated they have) is actual evidence that these are structural cracks not cosmetic flaws.

These loaders have been tested under extreme conditions for many tweak cycles and they found that they could not damage the torque box beyond the cosmetic cracks.

Where is the proof of this? Again, go back and read the threads, people are reporting growing cracks. Cosmetic cracks, as you term them, should not continue to grow.

They new they did not have a safety issue

Again, there is zero proof of this.

but decided to redesign the torque box differently to eliminate this issue completely

Is it possible that they only did this because of the pressure they got from customers who have cracks in their loaders, many of which were noticed at less than 50 hours of use.



A few of the Kioti owners have done a stand up job of keeping the emotion out of the threads and keeping them fact based. Posts that offer up no substantiation do not help anyone and can not really be considered anything more than propaganda. The tractors are pretty darn good. Several models are excellent. The loaders on the CKs have created a huge public relations problem. To make a lot of claims without any proof, however does not help the cause or the brand, but certainly allows the skeptical to raise doubts.

 

[Dodgeram]

"Many of them cracked with light use, as stated here on TBN many times. Further, to claim this is strickly a cosmetic claw is not substantiated by any engineering, and if the cracks continue to grow (as many here stated they have) is actual evidence that these are structural cracks not cosmetic flaws."

What exactly is "light use"? Pushing snow? Lifting 600 lb pallets of flagstone on forks 2 foot in front of the loader? Using a tooth bar to pry roots up? Light use sounds kind of subjective to me.

They new they did not have a safety issue

"Again, there is zero proof of this."

Zero proof that it's a safety factor.

"but decided to redesign the torque box differently to eliminate this issue completely"

Is it possible that they only did this because of the pressure they got from customers who have cracks in their loaders, many of which were noticed at less than 50 hours of use.

It has been my experience that most companies don't voluntarily re-design things without someone complaining.

"Posts that offer up no substantiation do not help anyone and can not really be considered anything more than propaganda"
Out of 4 of your comments, three fit into this catagory.

Sorry Bob, but when you decided that the cracked loaders were more of a safety factor than the broken seats on the NH and the cracked fenders on the Bx's, you lost me.

That being said, this IS America, so you are certainly allowed to express your opinion.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Sorry Bob, but when you decided that the cracked loaders were more of a safety factor than the broken seats on the NH and the cracked fenders on the Bx's, you lost me.

And you have obviously have no clue what a safety problem is if you could even consider the cracked BX fenders or the cracked plate under the NH seat as any sort of safety issue. Neither could even remotely be considered safety issues. Both were/are addressed by their respective manufacturers. But I don't think this is supposed to be a debate about which brand better handled the public notification of its problems. If it were, then Kioti clearly fell flat on its face. Kubota & NH both are bruised from their problems, but neither had safety issues.

However when NH did have a problem with their loaders, they did repair them quickly, both the corporate and the dealers notified the customers, and the tractors (at least mine) was picked up, repaired, and delivered promptly. And it was a real safety issue but not a recall.

As for light use being subjective, it was stated by the users of the loaders, not by me. But it also strikes me that if a tractor has cracked loader in under 50 hours, and if there is a 50 hour break-in period when light duty use is recommended, and if the user claimed they followed the proceedures, then we'd have to believe them or they would have potentially voided their warranty? None claimed that. So it should be safe to presume that at least many who claimed they were only used for light duty use, were in fact only used for light duty use.

 

[Dodgeram]

"And you have obviously have no clue what a safety problem is if you could even consider the cracked BX fenders or the cracked plate under the NH seat as any sort of safety issue. Neither could even remotely be considered safety issues."

My mistake, I will now bow to not only the Safety expert, but the guru on Kioti cracked loaders.

I will now check with you on any issue my Kioti develops to see if it constitutes a safety factor in the "world according to Bob"

BTW, have you ever seen a cracked Kioti loader? Or is your vast knowledge formed on what you have read on TBN?

Either way, In my book, you are the Kioti Guru.

Tom

 

[Bob_Skurka]

No need for the sarcastic attack.

The reality is that a the broken plastic fender on the little BX Kubota is not a safety issue. The crack in the underseat support of the small frame TC seat was also not a safety issue, but it was a nusience. Yes, I suppose in the most extreme case a person could fall out of the seat and that would be a safety hazard, or it could just be a negligent operator for sitting on a wobbly seat without looking under it

You keep attributing to me, words that were written by Kioti owners. That is simply misdirected.

 

[JerryG]

Sorry Bob, but when you decided that the cracked loaders were more of a safety factor than the broken seats on the NH and the cracked fenders on the Bx's, you lost me.

I can't find that on this thread. Was that in this thread or was it somewhere else?

 

[Limecuda]

I have not heard of any safety issue with the cracks. Any injuries associated with them? If not then it can't be claimed to be a safety issue at least not yet. No proof one way or the other to my knowledge.

I searched long and hard and can honestly say my Kioti was a better value than any comparable Kubota or NH. It was doing great just over an hour ago.