Underground electrical service

[timberwolves]

I got a proposal for a underground electrical service. The nearest utility pole is
2150' away from my cabin on a neighbors property. We share a right of way with a few neighbors that nobody uses. We would be using part of the right of way to our advantage becaues it has no trees in it, easier trenching. The local utility company will not extend this line any closer. They said the only way they would extend it is if it was on a maintained road. They no longer extend lines through the woods. Whatever we decide to do we would own & maintain. They say we would need to obtain easments and rights of ways from atleast to neighbors. They would do the leg work to obtain these easements from our neighbors. Option A. Was to cut a 30' swath through the woods and set poles and run overhead wire. We are worried if a tree or branch falls it would take out the line & then we would have to call an electrician to come and repair it. Overhead price is around $12.50 per foot not including the price of the clear cut.The price for the overhead option is extremely high. Option B. Run primary wire underground 2' in a 2" conduit. The electrician quote included conduit, wire 15KV 2 gauge aluminum wire with a copper outer jacket, hooking up to the utility supplied pad mounted transformer. Then to my existing electrical panel ( my cabin is run by a 8KW generator now)& the electrical inspection.His quote is for $12K.His price included everything except for the trenching & backfilling of the trench. My excavator says he would do it for $1k a day. He thinks it would take him 3-4 days to trench it & a day to backfill it. 900' of it is very, very steep & through the woods. So $ 5k for the trench. The total would be around $17K. Does anyone have any experience with a underground primary service ? Any comments ? Looking for some advice do these prices seem high ? If so what are the rates for a licensed electrician & excavator in your area ?

 

[Groo]

They cant just stick it into the ground with a ditch witch type of thing, right off the roll with flexible conduit?

I'd definitely do underground. It is way more dependable than poles, and if the line breaks, it just grounds into the ground.

The price sounds in-line with what I've been quoted from a municipality run electrical.

 

[DKCDKC]

My electric co-op laid underground cable the full 5,300 feet of my gravel drive - hitting rocks three or four times - for $17,900 in 1994. I would have had to pay most of that until I read their rules. By installing electric baseboard heating in the cabin (usually heated by wood stove) it became all electric and their allowance for the line in went up to $18,000. I paid nothing.

The line has never failed, and has enough capacity to serve 100 homes or more - I guess in case I developed the land. I built a home near the cabin in 2001. I had the telephone lines colocated with the powerline, and it has been problem-free as well.

 

[grsthegreat]

Our utilities here in north idaho install allthe primary lines.Im an electrical contractor and i cant touch them.

All of our primaries are 36" below ground...period. The NEC only requires 2r4" but the utilities require 36" for overkill as the top soil always shifts and is continually regraded over tiome.

The price your quoting seems very reasonable. here it $12.00/foot underground (incl trenching).

 

[beppington]

Just more info for reference: My elec coop direct buried my 400' long run using a ditch witch for about $1,250 I think it was.

When I met their engineer at my property I assumed they would want to do overhead & getting it buried would be a fight, but no, they said they've determined that over the long run buried is cheaper. I did have to clear a path thru the woods, but only 6 or 8 feet wide (can't recall) as opposed to 20' for overhead, & didn't have to be dead straight (unlike overhead), so I made some intentional gentle sweeps amongst the trees to keep it from being obvious/ugly ... it's now all overgrown again & you would never even know it's there.

 

[Redneck in training]

For that money I would go solar.
Off-Grid Kits

 

[flusher]

My electrician quoted $4K for about 400 ft of 350 MCM aluminum wire in 3" conduit buried to 30 inches deep in a trench that I cut myself using a rented Ditch Witch. Price included material and installation of an exterior load center (weatherproof circuit breaker box).

 

[rambler]

Underground is cool.

My REA back in '08 offered free overhead (was already there, but put in in the '50's so probably redo) for the 750 feet or would do underground for 50 cents a foot. I went underground, of course! They had a 4 foot deep vibrating plow that knifed the wire in. Most everyone uses direct burrial 'here', I understand some regions prefer to use conduit. Actually cost more to re-gravel the driveway than to have it switched to underground.

I figured that all was a good deal at the time.

--->Paul

 

[jonyyuma]

Timberwolves, You asked about primary lines...Some reply here are secondary and do not apply..You said 24 inches deep///How deep does the ground freeze up there typically?? Anyway, in conduit will help protect your investment...It only takes a tiny shift in the ground or a small nick in the jacket of 15kv line and your Primary line can fail?

 

[BeezFun]

For that money I would go solar.
Off-Grid Kits

Big ditto on that. Not sure how much power you need or where you are, but I was quoted 28K here in Chicago for materials, I do install. And you'll never have a bill : - )

 

[timberwolves]

Not sure how deep the ground freezes but deep. The utility co. & my electrical contractor both stated the 2" conduit had to be buried 24" in the ground. The line would be a primary line not secondary. The only incentive the power company would give us is 500' of distribution line allowance & 100' of service allowance if we hook up to a approved ceptic system within two years. Because the cabin has no septic we do not qualify for anything.

 

[tnmike]

There is no way in **** I would give any electric utility 17 grand for the installation of a service they own and then have to pay them a monthly bill for usage. (I worked for one for 34 years in engineering)

Solar panel prices have come way down. I have seen prices as low as $1.25 per watt. Call the folks at Arizona Sun and Wind before you shell out that much money. I do not know what your electrical loads are but you could have a pretty nice system for that price and a hedge against future rate increases which are on the way due to epa regulations against the use of coal and the devaluation of the US dollar.

Solar electric power components and solar panels

 

[jonyyuma]

Really the price for the Electricity does sound like a lot...I was only speaking from the tech side, there were not many people whom could be trusted to put that line in...the risks are very high with the installation..we even used steel pipe screwed into the ends for the risers ... for better sheer and protection of the wiring..sounds like you are paying for the pad transformer too?

 

[tcartwri]

In my opinion solar is not going to be reliable enough in this case. If he's not able to visit the cabin all winter round and clean them off, they will be non producing for months at a time. It is true that the cost is very attractive now for an off grid system, particularly for something like a cabin. Just not in this case.

For heat, I would install an LPG woodstove. They do not need power to operate, and will save your butt in power outages. Saved ours during the great ice storm of 98.

My opinion on the hydro run, is that it sounds pretty reasonable for what's involved.

 

[Groo]

I am looking to build somewhere not to close to a power pole myself. I was rather shocked at the cost too. Then I looked into solar, and ran some numbers, and figured it would run me about $100k to get all the solar power I'd need in the winter months.

 

[Swiftriver]

One thing nobody mentions about solar is battery life. Those batterys don't last forever, especially if you don't know how to take care of them. 10 years is usually the high end. A good sized system will have $10 grand or more in batterys. Do the math and grid power doesn't look so bad. I'm not against solar. We have solar at our camp and it works out great for how we use it, but we just ran over a mile of primary to feed the new house we are building. It was cheaper than building up the solar to handle the loads of a house and large garage and then replacing batterys every 8 or 10 years.
Timberwolves, I would go with the underground primary. That price sounds pretty reasonable to me. I wish I would have had that option but we ran up the side of a state highway and they said no way, overhead only.

 

[2458n]

Get a bid from someone with a directional boring rig. No ground to move and replace. You run underground ground and pull back the liner. The electric cable is then installed in the liner. My relative has lived in Colorado off grid for ten years, and he says it is even more doable now.

 

[timberwolves]

tnmike, I would not be paying the local utility company nothing. I picked out a private electrical contractor. The local utility will not exted this line or construct this line for me. The only way they will extend this line is if it was on a maintained road, which it is not.
jonyyuma, the local utility supplies & maintains the transformer. It will be located 125' from the cabin.
tcartwri,you are correct about not going to the cabin year round. I would be worried about the batteries & solar panels. As for heat we currently use a woodburning stove.
2458n when this machine bores a hole can you put conduit in it ? The line needs to be in 2" sched 40 conduit.

 

[crazyal]

When I built my house I had to run about 1600 feet of primary. Our COOP is a little different but basically they had three prices. The first was for them to do all the work, the second was for me to trench and they would do all the electrical work, the third (what I did) was I did the trench, ran the conduit, and installed the electrical vaults (along with drains and ground rods). They even specified the size of rope I needed inside the conduit for them to pull the wire.

The rules required a vault every 600' and 2 1/2" conduit. If you can dig the trench then it's real easy to do. The day they showed up to pull the wire they had a 4wd atv to pull with and a second guy guiding the wire into the conduit. The wire was on a giant spool that would unwind as they pulled. I would have pulled the wire myself but they didn't allow it. I left the trench exposed so they could verify that I went down to the proper depth but they never checked and wanted it covered asap once they pulled the wire.

 

[tnmike]

There is no way you are going to spend ten grand on a battery bank for a cabin. Two grand tops. And that would be a large bank. I got twelve years on my last set of Trojan L16s. What are your critical loads? As far as reliability I would be much more concerned with a grid failure. Think ice storms, wet snow and tropical storms. I know you have seen all of those in the past five years.

Whoever you are paying, seventeen large is a lot of dough. You could have a very nice cabin system for five grand if you are not wanting electric heat or air conditioning and you can turn a wrench. I am in the process of installing a system in a farm shop that will also feed critical loads in the house. I have everything on hand except the batteries. I am debating Trojan T105s versus L16s. My total cost will be 3000 dollars. That is me doing the install and some scrounging for panel mounting, wire, hardware , etc.

The pricing on solar has come way down and in my opinion is a no brainer for new construction especially if you have to pay a ridiculous amount of money for a grid extension. Be sure and consider the price per kwhr LILCO or whoever it is is going to charge you for monthly consumption. I am in no way a raving greenie. I worked for decades as an electrical engineer for an investor owned utility in the distribution/ construction field. I have designed and overseen the installation of hundreds of miles over power lines both overhead and underground. I have also spent months repairing the same lines after storm damage.

That is my opinion for what it is worth.