types of transmissions

[john_bud]

That's a crock of steaming used horse feed.

Plain old gear crashbox tranny is super reliable.. as all the antique tractors running around with them.

Put 70 years on a new hydro, and abuse the fire out of it, and almost never maintain it.. ( like an old gear antique tractor trans ).. and see where you are..

Ald gear trans will run decades with worn leaky seals.. I'd like to see a hydro run with it's seals worn for decades.. on dirty oil, and no filter, and 1.5" of sand and much in the bottom of the trans sump.....

soundguy

Your answer is incorrect. What happens when you rock a gear tractor back and forth too agresssively? Broken teeth on the gears, bent shafts, cascading failures as chipped teeth jam other gears. Ever hear of a gear trans "stuck" in 2 gears? Ever hear of clutch failure? You yourself have posted that you yourself have seen a new clutch burnt in an hour by an unskilled user. Ever see that with an HST? Trans popping out of gear going down hills? What happens when you pop the clutch too fast too often? The list goes on. Extremely few of those failure modes exist with a HST transmission. Overload a gear trans and a part will break. Overload an hst and the pressure relief will bleed off. Ability to withstand abusive lack of maintenance does not define reliability.

Please do more that curse me when you disagree. You are wrong. Why not post some MTBF numbers? Or % of tractors repaired by transmission type per 1000 hours of use? Is it because you are only going by "gut feel" and no DATA? Be honest and not emotional.

jb

 

[jsborn]

Well Children it seems this is another Thread that has quickly become a sandbox fight between kids on the playground instead of an informative discussion of pros and cons of the subject at hand.

Just my observation and 2cents

 

[Soundguy]

A ring or pinion gear can pop no matter what tranny you have, if you rock it and work it hard or abuse it.

A clutch is a wear item. How much you use it, and how skilled the operastor is determines clutch life.

I've certaintly opened up antiques and found original, or at least vintage clutches.

Yes.. an unskilled operator can kill a clutch in an hour.. that's not a transmission weakness.. that's a bad operator. that bad operator can turn a 30K$ HST tractor into scrap in that same time. We had a nice shiny new JD 544E loader virtually ruined this way by a new hire on a land clearing job.

bent bucket, twisted bucket arms, broke dogbone, ripped foot steps off 1 flat tire dented engine cover panels, and a tree limb thru the rear radiator grate that damaged the grate and the radiator and the backup siren. Sadly, This is a 100% true story!

None of those were because the machine was poorly designed or weak.

As for your statement about an item being able to witstand abuse or lack of maintenance not being a sign of reliability.. well.. we'll just have to disagree on that one. i can't see it as anything other than a -defining point- of reliability.

And check your reading skills.. I didn't curse you... ( your statement.. yes.. ) There is a difference. Arguing a point vs a personal attack are 2 different things.

I realize there are a few posters here that don't understand what argumentum ad hominem means..

soundguy

Your answer is incorrect. What happens when you rock a gear tractor back and forth too agresssively? Broken teeth on the gears, bent shafts, cascading failures as chipped teeth jam other gears. Ever hear of a gear trans "stuck" in 2 gears? Ever hear of clutch failure? You yourself have posted that you yourself have seen a new clutch burnt in an hour by an unskilled user. Ever see that with an HST? Trans popping out of gear going down hills? What happens when you pop the clutch too fast too often? The list goes on. Extremely few of those failure modes exist with a HST transmission. Overload a gear trans and a part will break. Overload an hst and the pressure relief will bleed off. Ability to withstand abusive lack of maintenance does not define reliability.

Please do more that curse me when you disagree. You are wrong. Why not post some MTBF numbers? Or % of tractors repaired by transmission type per 1000 hours of use? Is it because you are only going by "gut feel" and no DATA? Be honest and not emotional.

jb

 

[Soundguy]

Well Children it seems this is another Thread that has quickly become a sandbox fight between kids on the playground instead of an informative discussion of pros and cons of the subject at hand.

Just my observation and 2cents

And your comment added what?

At least JB voiced his opinion based on his experiences. I at least credit him for that, whether or not I disagree. It's all any of us can do is post what we have observed and comment on it.

This isn't a subject where you can flip the back of the book open and check to see if the answers are right.

gear vs HST

My color vs your color

take your pic..etc.

Problems arise when people observe different situations. And how they feel about those situations based on their experiences.

Now.. I've said my piece to JB plus a rebuttal to a counter argument. At this point I expect a counter rebuttal.. in the end.. he will think HST trans are superior as far as reliability, and I will feel that gear trans are reliable. I predict neither of us will change our views. I'm ok with that too. He's obviously seen lots of abused gear trans that developed specific problems that are more or less not duplicatable in an HST trans.. like being in 2 gears.. (which.. is a wear or maintenace problem by the way.. worn detents or loose set screws on forks and rails.. or worn shifter nub. ).. Likewise.. I've simply seen way too many antique tractors with gear trans still running and working to say that gear trans are simply -not reliable-. Heck.. the 8spd trans in my ford 5000 is virtually identical to the 8spd in my NH 7610s I'm guessing if they were so unreliable that ford / NH wouldn't have continued using that trans for 38 years... or maybee i'm wrong

soundguy

 

[jsborn]

My comment added the fact that you just praised JB for: At least JB voiced his opinion based on his experiences It has been my exp that some of the posters here can't seem to debate or disagree with out the use of degrading remakes like: And check your reading skills .

I do enjoy the debates and I love the Information but the name calling and degrading remakes serve no useful purpose.

And this is my opinion based on my experience.

 

[Egon]

I realize there are a few posters here that don't understand what argumentum ad hominem means..

Who would they be and why do you think they fit in this category?

 

[Soundguy]

It has been my exp that some of the posters here can't seem to debate or disagree with out the use of degrading remakes like: And check your reading skills ..

"Check your reading skills"... seems like a pretty straight forward statement... He said I called 'him' something. i didn't. my comment was aimed squarely at his comment.. in order to avoid an ad hominem argument.

I do enjoy the debates and I love the Information but the name calling and degrading remakes serve no useful purpose.

.

Name calling? Havn't seen any.. unless I missed them... ( I'm not going to go back and re-read all 3 pages just to look for a name-call ) If you'd like to point them out.. do so via PM.. so we don't keep kicking this thread further OT disputing the grammer vs the subject.


Soundguy

 

[Egon]

As for the heckler that wanted to know how dirt gets in the sump

Does this qualify for "ad hominem" ?

 

[AKfish]

I've certaintly opened up antiques and found original, or at least vintage clutches.

Yes.. an unskilled operator can kill a clutch in an hour.. that's not a transmission weakness.. that's a bad operator. that bad operator can turn a 30K$ HST tractor into scrap in that same time.

None of those were because the machine was poorly designed or weak.

As for your statement about an item being able to witstand abuse or lack of maintenance not being a sign of reliability.. well.. we'll just have to disagree on that one. i can't see it as anything other than a -defining point- of reliability.

soundguy

I come away from this discussion with the conclusion that NONE of the transmission designs currently available are necessarily "inherently" superior to another. Structurally, they will all perform, with outstanding reliability; given proper operation and maintainance.

There are operational attributes; however, that make one design inherently superior to other transmission types when comparisons are based upon the type of work being performed.

Gear transmissions; either collar or snychromesh excel with heavy ground engagement chores; plowing, discing, cultivating and in situations where operations are conducted in large acreages with long distances when mowing, baling, etc.

Hydraulic reverser or shuttle shift transmissions also excel under work conditions that conventional gear transmissions tend to shine. However, these transmissions have the added advantage of clutchless forward and reverse movement. This use option is very beneficial when front loader operations are a routine function.

HST or hydrostatic transmissions excel in work environments where operations involve close quarters and/or precision movement of the machine and implements. It is also the easiest transmission for inexperienced operators to operate. Most industrial-use heavy equipment utilizes this type of transmission.

Therefore, the decision to buy a tractor with a specific transmission type should not be based upon the criteria of a "more reliable and superior transmission design" but rather more upon how the machine will be utilized and the personal, individual "tastes" of the purchaser.

I sincerely hope this was a helpful distillation of the previous comments.

AKfish

 

[Iplayfarmer]

I have a MF HST (Made by Iseki) that is size-wise pretty comparable to my older Iseki with a gear Tranny.

These are my observations...

The HST is WAY easier to use. I like the ease of changing directions. I like not having to clutch. I like that the PTO stays engaged regardless of what directions I'm going and how fast. I like that I can just let off the pedal a little to slow down for thicker grass when bush hogging, etc.

I liked the gear tranny because when I was driving a half mile to do some work at a friend's house, I could just put it in gear and sit back. Holding that hydro pedal down all the way for a half mile is almost as tiring as the clutch was for loader work. I liked that it seemed I had all of the engine power available. I could actually kill the engine in the gear tractor if I bogged it down. If I bog down the HST, it just stops moving, the engine keeps running.

What I like most about the HST is that the clutch doesn't wear out as quick (if ever). I've changed a clutch, and it's not easy.

 

[Soundguy]

Does this qualify for "ad hominem" ?

No.. but in all fairness...now that you bring it up, it does count as name calling. I had previously forgotten that comment. thus my mistake in ref: to the name calling comment by JSborn ( and my bad ). thus.. my appolgies to both of you.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

I come away from this discussion with the conclusion that NONE of the transmission designs currently available are necessarily "inherently" superior to another. Structurally, they will all perform, with outstanding reliability; given proper operation and maintainance.There are operational attributes; however, that make one design inherently superior to other transmission types when comparisons are based upon the type of work being performed.

AKfish

Good post.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

The HST is WAY easier to use. I like the ease of changing directions. I like not having to clutch. I like that the PTO stays engaged regardless of what directions I'm going and how fast. .

I'm wondering.. did your iseki ? disengage the pto? when you were in reverse?

I've seen 'lawnmowers' that kill the blades in reverse.

I've seen ground speed pto's that change direction in reverse... and I've seen full hyd pto's on hybred machines that are reversable.. but for regualr pto.. live or non live / indepentent.. I don't recall a model that 'looses' pto in reverse.. that would be darn inconvienient with a mower.. IMHO.

Am I reading your post wrong?

soundguy

 

[Iplayfarmer]

I'm wondering.. did your iseki ? disengage the pto? when you were in reverse?

No. The PTO always spun the same direction, but the PTO stopped when the clutch was pushed. The pain with changing directions is that I'd have to clutch, wait for everything to come to a stop, shift to reverse, and then let out the clutch. Due to the momentum created by the spinning blades, there was no "delicate" work. I had to stay clear of corners for fear I wouldn't get the tractor stopped in time. I did grind the gears occasionally rather than wait for everything to come to a stop. I also got an overrunning clutch which made things a lot nicer, but I still had a few feet of travel everytime I enganged the clutch before the blades were up to speed.

The nice thing about the HST is that I can maneuver at very low speeds in and around obstacles with the mower going full speed. I have such nice looking corners now.

I do miss the gear tranny occasionally, but for what I do the HST works better most of the time.

 

[Soundguy]

AHHHH.. makes sense now.. you weren't using the correct equipment on your iseki/mnower combo for your situation. Since you had non live tranny pto, you REALLY REALLY needed an over running couple on the back of your pto.. that cost between 55-80$ depending on if you get a quick release or the pin on types. They let the mower continue spinning while your tractor pto stub stops.. thus you can stop.. shift.. backup, stop, go forward.. etc... all beacuse of a 1-way ratched int he ORC keeping the mower from backfeeding power thru the driveshaft into the trans/diffy. For tractors driving large flywheel loads that have trans/non live pto.. I consider the ORC as essential 'safety' equipment... not optional..

soundguy

No. The PTO always spun the same direction, but the PTO stopped when the clutch was pushed. The pain with changing directions is that I'd have to clutch, wait for everything to come to a stop, shift to reverse, and then let out the clutch. Due to the momentum created by the spinning blades, there was no "delicate" work. I had to stay clear of corners for fear I wouldn't get the tractor stopped in time. I did grind the gears occasionally rather than wait for everything to come to a stop. I also got an overrunning clutch which made things a lot nicer, but I still had a few feet of travel everytime I enganged the clutch before the blades were up to speed.

The nice thing about the HST is that I can maneuver at very low speeds in and around obstacles with the mower going full speed. I have such nice looking corners now.

I do miss the gear tranny occasionally, but for what I do the HST works better most of the time.

 

[pitt_md]

That's a crock of steaming used horse feed.

Plain old gear crashbox tranny is super reliable.. as all the antique tractors running around with them.

Put 70 years on a new hydro, and abuse the fire out of it, and almost never maintain it.. ( like an old gear antique tractor trans ).. and see where you are..

Ald gear trans will run decades with worn leaky seals.. I'd like to see a hydro run with it's seals worn for decades.. on dirty oil, and no filter, and 1.5" of sand and much in the bottom of the trans sump.....

soundguy

SoundGuy, quit pussyfooting around and tell us what you really think.

 

[DK35vince]

No. The PTO always spun the same direction, but the PTO stopped when the clutch was pushed. The pain with changing directions is that I'd have to clutch, wait for everything to come to a stop, shift to reverse, and then let out the clutch. Due to the momentum created by the spinning blades, there was no "delicate" work. I had to stay clear of corners for fear I wouldn't get the tractor stopped in time.

Most newer gear drive tractors have live or Independant PTO and internal overrunning clutch that solves all of these problems.
My tractor has sycronized shuttle, so I can forward/reverse with out coming to a stop, and Independant PTO. The PTO will run as long as the switch is turned on. Clutch in or out the PTO will run.
With the internal overrunng clutch, the momentum from the implements spin down without pushing the tractor.

 

[Soundguy]

SoundGuy, quit pussyfooting around and tell us what you really think.

Yeah I know.... I'm too reserved sometimes!

soundguy

 

[Typhoon]

I think it really comes down to what a guy likes. According to data, all of the trannies in todays tractors are very reliable, especially if properly maintained. I am on my 2nd tractor now, and it is HST just like my first one. Personally, when I test drove tractors to buy my first one, the HST won my heart over instantly! Unlimited control over speed, no clutching, never have to touch the brakes, and for loader work, the ease of changing directions is just awesome. I worked my first tractor to the bone and never had a problem with the transmission. Hopefully my new one will give me the same great service.

 

[Egon]

Most newer gear drive tractors have live or Independant PTO and internal overrunning clutch that solves all of these problems.

Time marches on!

You can't ever go back much as you would like.