Tractor Sizing tractor sizing question

[jmh1783]

I need some expertise. I'm looking at a property with about 11 acres of open mostly flat land and I'm trying to figure out what tractor to buy. I don't want to get into a brand discussion. I have narrowed it down to three choices (all hydros):

Tractor A: larger frame, 35 hp, 4000lbs
Tractor B: smaller frame, 3000lbs, 40 hp (6 inches narrower, 12 inches shorter), $200 less than above
Tractor C: same frame as A, 4000lbs, 45 hp, $2K more
***weights are without the loader

The open space is pasture (I don't intend to have animals) but is also exposed to the road. I intend to mow some of it regularly like a lawn and the rest monthly. I want to buy a flail mower to handle both the tall and short grass. No thick stuff to deal with. My other uses for the tractor are: plowing in winter, rototilling, fencing, planting an orchard, wood chipper, wood splitter, driveway maintenance, lots of tree planting over the course of years, other one-off projects.

Here's my real question/concern: Most flail mowers are rated for at least 30 PTO HP. Tractor A has 29 PTO HP. I currently have an underpowered zero turn mower, I'd prefer to not repeat the problem when buying a tractor. Tractor B is smaller and lighter but with more PTO HP. It would be more maneaverable for mowing, easier on the lawn and getting into the woods on the property. With ~35 PTO HP it is up above the minimum, but not by much. Tractor C has lots of PTO HP but is it too much tractor? It is no larger than Tractor A but would consume more fuel doing the same work.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[ustmd]

Those are all lots of tractor (and $$$) for mowing. Any reason you are wanting to use a fail mower vs a bush hog?

We maintain 30 acre of similar land (horse pasture) with 27hp and a bush hog. I have a finish mower that I have used 4 times in 8 years.

 

[jmh1783]

The reason I was looking at a flail mower is I'm not sure of what split I'm going to have between field and lawn. I figured I'd buy one flail instead of a finish mower and a rotary cutter. Also the flail mowers seem to chop up the grass better. Would you use a finish mower on grass you cut once a month?

 

[TheMadOne]

For the job you outline, and using only the choices presented, I'd go with B. It'd be the better mower, and has more than enough HP to run the flail mower you're looking at.

Going outside of your guidelines, I'd get a bush hog and a finish mower, rather than a single flail mower and expecting it to do a good job on a lawn. Or, wait and see how tall the grass gets in a month. Finish mowers should be fine for up to about a foot or so, as long as it doesn't have to battle stumps and rocks.

 

[jmh1783]

Good point. I was hoping not to buy two units. Also a consideration it throwing stones. The driveway is gravel and pretty thick. There is a lot of road frontage that needs mowed like a lawn which is a concern for projectiles.

 

[nybirdman]

Looks like tractor B will suit your needs;a flail type mower will require more maintenance but sounds like the right tool for the job.

 

[jeff9366]

I recommend a Bucket Spade for orchard and tree planting.

LINK: Tractor and Skidsteer bucket spade shovel

 

[Gary Fowler]

I recommend a Bucket Spade for orchard and tree planting.

LINK: Tractor and Skidsteer bucket spade shovel

That is probably OK for your sandy loam soil, but I sure wouldn't use it at my place, at least not with it attached to the FEL bucket like that. My brother in law had a hay spear like that is it sure would bend the lip on the FEL bucket. We ordered a quick attach plate from EA and then mounted a rear hay spear on it and it made for much heavier lifts. I think I would do the same for you spade. I thing the QA plate was less than $150 but was well worth the effort for modifying the hay spear.

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

Will be very easy to find a good used brush hog and finish mower for less than the new price of a flail. Arround here there aren't a ton of used flail mowers so they are relatively more expensive (plus a greater used risk IMHO).

Get a quick hitch or extendable 3pt lower arms and switching implements is easy.

 

[jmh1783]

Thanks for the advice. I'll buy new. I'm the guy who buys a used something-or-other for $50 and then has to spend $150 fixing it.

 

[varmint]

Just noticed where you are located... you might want to take a day trip over to Messick's main store... lots of equipment, and good advice.

 

[jmh1783]

Thanks. That's about 3 1/2 hours away. There are lots of dealers here between Washington and Waynesburg. I was hoping to here from folks with personal experience with similar tractors. Most of my work will be pto vs ground engagement so I'm still leaning towards tractor B which is 3000 lbs. I don't want to go with anything smaller because I do have the need to unload truck deliveries in the low 1000 lb range plus the loss of pto hp. I'm also not sure I want to mow the front 9 acres with a zero turn mower. There is pasture across from my current home's location. A guy just killed his commercial zero turn on it last week.

 

[jenkinsph]

I would go with tractor C for the general purpose work. It should be able to handle all the tasks in the future where you might need the larger tractor size. Just because it has more power available don't be mislead to think it will use more fuel doing the same work, this is a miniscule amount. As an example I can use my tlb with 43 hp all day long digging trenches on 10 or 12 gallons of fuel. I find that fuel usage is the least of my overall costs. Lighter work may use 6 to 8 gallons all day.

Tractor B might be better than the larger tractors mowing around the house. I would consider keeping the zero turn for the close work and use the flail for the larger areas. I find it much better to separate finish mowing from the other tractor jobs you list. The combination of a 4000 lb. compact tractor and a good zero turn would be ideal.

 

[jmh1783]

Thanks for your input jenkinsph. The fuel estimate is useful too. I was a bit surprised but when I thought about it, I guess I shouldn't have been. If I drove my car all day I'd use more than 12 gallons of fuel. And of course the cost is really not that significant in comparison. I might have to think about upgrading my zero turn too.

 

[Grandad4]

Your property and your chore list are easily within the capabilities of A, B or C. As noted, the smaller B choice might give you the benefit of maneuverability and slightly better parking for tractor and implements while the larger, heavier A and C choices would offer more margin for heavy work. You'd have to decide which took priority for your situation. Beyond that, your diverse activity list suggests ease of changing implements and tractor setup, as well as overall convenience and ease of operation for you - highly personal choice - should be high on your list of requirements. Plenty of good choices available, so plan to check out a variety of choices.

Your decision regarding the flail mower makes sense, allowing that they are relatively costly compared with alternative choices. If it helps, my experience has been that the objects one worries about striking while mowing are usually found and either destroyed or removed after the first handful of times you use a brush cutter on a property. By about the 4th or 5th mowing, there's not much left to worry about, even on pretty rough ground. And anything still there after that is going to be something you'll go out and specifically remove.

 

[patchnball]

you didn't mention tire choice. I assume you are looking toward turf's since the majority of your seat time sounds like mowing. Also, turfs will " float" better in wet conditions.

 

[Teachu2]

Any of the three will do the job. Which one is most comfortable for you to mount, drive, and dismount from?

My neighbor has a small Kubota SCUT that fits him well and handles his mowing tasks on his gently-sloped property with ease. I'm across the street, but have steep slopes on the property and I'm substantially taller than he. I needed a larger, heavier CUT to fit me and my terrain. The extra 10 hp also allows me to run larger cutters.

I bought one of these last year - so far, so good. 68" Flail Mower Heavy Duty Cat I 3pt 3 HP Rating EFGC175 | eBay They have gone up about $750 in that time....

 

[jmh1783]

Teachu2: Good point. I'm a big guy but the smaller one seemed more comfortable. Perhaps it was seat adjustment. I will have to try them again. The flail mower looks interesting. Fortunately the property is mostly flat which is weird for my area. The forested part is hilly but I likely won't be getting in there much.

Grandad4: Well I've been a bit uncertain about my exact plans. Time to start narrowing those down. I now have a signed agreement on the property. The clock is now ticking until I have to buy the tractor.

 

[jmh1783]

Anyone want to make the argument that Tractor A's 29 PTO HP is enough to run a six foot flail mower? Anyone running one with that much or less PTO HP?

 

[jeff9366]

FARMWITHJUNK is disabled and is not posting on T-B-N any longer.

FARMWITHJUNK operated a commercial mowing service.

Re: Contract Flailing

Last edited by Farmwithjunk; 07-13-2011.

I do commercial right-of-way mowing as well as several large acreage tracts. We've tried high end flails on several occasions. (Owned one, demo-ed 3 others..) They do an excellent job in many conditions, but require MUCH slower ground speeds in conditions that are very typically found in my line of work. They also require MUCH more HP in what I'd describe as "adverse conditions". As an example, a tractor we routinely use to pull a 15' bat wing (rotary) struggled with an 8' flail in high weeds. Before that draws a comment on "inexperienced operators", ect, I'll say this. We had a factory rep on hand while we used the flails. They were unable to rationalize the disadvantages of the flails. There was also NO comments offered on the way we used them, leaving my with the impression our results were typical.

When I demo-ed those flails, I was high on the idea of promoting them as a way of setting my business apart from the pack. It didn't take long to realize they simply made me uncompetitive in the market I had to operate in. This isn't Utopia...It's a tough economic environment. Operating at a disadvantage is a mistake, no matter what one would LIKE to do.

Initial cost (for higher quality units) is much higher than a heavy duty rotary cutter (per foot). Routine maintenance was off the charts compared to the relatively low cost involved with a rotary cutter.

Cost to mow an acre with a rotary cutter is fairly constant in varying conditions. Cost per acre with a flail varies wildly, and tends to lean towards VERY high per acre cost in the conditions commercial mowing generally presents. That EITHER makes bids unattractive, OR results in low profit margin. I don't know about you, but I'm in business to make money. A charming sales pitch doesn't feed the bulldog.

Much is made of the "safety factor"....Too much in fact. Flails aren't 100% safe, neither is a rotary cutter. With proper precautions, BOTH can be used successfully. There is a higher incidence of accidents with rotary mowers due in fact to the HUGE disparity in numbers of flails vs rotary cutters. This is one instance where numbers (as they're used in sales propaganda) DO NOT tell the true story.

You'll get the "sales pitch" (and associated propaganda) from "someone" on here who has a vested financial interest in selling flails, but speaking strictly as someone who's used BOTH enough to understand the assets AND liabilities of each, I'm holding steady with rotary cutters. There simply is not enough margin of profit in ROW mowing these days to afford a MUCH more expensive mower. (basing on long term use and maint, initial cost, and volume of billable work performed) You'll find flails more commonly in use by municipalities, where cost vs return on investment isn't a consideration. I have no interest in promoting OR criticizing EITHER, just a financial interest in operating MY BUSINESS in the most profitable (but still safe and efficient) manner.

3 years ago, we demo-ed 2 Alamo commercial grade flails. While mowing highway right-of-ways, BOTH required repairs that would have resulted in substantial expense, while mowing a stretch of road we routinely mow with Bush Hog bat wing rotary cutters. (Due to hitting exposed rock hidden under downed weeds) Quite simply put, rotary mowers will take FAR MORE punishment, do a more than satisfactory job, and do it at a much lower operating cost. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is simply ignoring/misrepresenting the facts to promote their own agenda.

Flails do an admirable job in select conditions. If you have the luxury of picking and choosing what you mow, fine..... The conditions that caused problems for the flails I saw represent approx. 75% of my business.

In the final analysis, the difference in quality of cut was minimal, if at all, when mowing in like conditions with a flail mower vs a "bush hog". A flail will obviously leave a better "lawn" than a bush hog in "lawn" conditions, but that isn't what is being compared in this thread anyway..... And with this type of mowing , 24 hours after the fact, it's virtually impossible to distinguish which type of mower was used in rough cut conditions.

Another valid point of comparison....Size of mower....I run a fleet of 15' bat wings. To get that width of cut, the typical set-up is to run a rear mounted 3-point flail, PLUS a side mounted hydraulic driven wing flail mower. The hp required, as well as the weight of the tractor serving as a power unit is substantially more demanding for the flails. (and cost goes up as you might expect) Rotary cutters can be run at lower engines speeds than the rated pto rpms with minimal drop off in quality of cut. Flails require (according to manufacturers) full, constant pto rated rpms. We found that recommendation to be "gospel". That's a critical difference when mowing in tight confines or when dealing with vehicle traffic only inches away. It's mandatory we be able to throttle back in certain situations.

BTDT, loaded the shelled flail mowers on a truck and sent 'em back to where they came from with no regrets. I compete against several other mowing contractors for my work....NONE....NOT ONE of them use flails. They simply DO NOT pencil out against a rotary cutter under the typical contract mowing conditions MOST of us are dealing with.......

Flail mowers have their niche. Making claims that they're THE answer to every question tends to make me discount ANY claims being made in their favor.


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