Tractor Performance: diesel vs gas

[MossRoad]

From Wikipedia: A tractor is a vehicle specifically designed to deliver a high tractive effort at slow speeds, for the purposes of hauling a trailer or machinery used in agriculture or construction.

So how is a PT-425 not a real tractor? What else would you call it?

It's not large, and it's not conventional, but it is certainly a tractor.

I'd call it a tool platform. Most folks consider tractors to be small front tires, big rears, pullin' a plow, etc.... farmer stuff. You and I know the benefits and weaknesses of the Power Tracs. Much better than a conventional tractor for the stuff we need it to do, much worse than a conventional tractor for plowing dirt and pulling stuff, etc...

 

[SnowRidge]

I'd call it a tool platform. Most folks consider tractors to be small front tires, big rears, pullin' a plow, etc.... farmer stuff. You and I know the benefits and weaknesses of the Power Tracs. Much better than a conventional tractor for the stuff we need it to do, much worse than a conventional tractor for plowing dirt and pulling stuff, etc...

I pull (non-ground engaging) stuff with mine all the time, instead of using my CUT. It pulls my 2,400# trailer fine on flat ground, and will even pull it up mild hills. I move it around with the PT all the time. Going downhill gets a mite squirrely, I admit. The PT just doesn't weigh enough.

 

[RobJ]

Awe shucks.. lets not interject any reality into this opinion based thread now!

( Takes 10 seconds to solder a pinhole in a float..) I'm not sure what aprt of an injector pump I can solder to fix?? )

soundguy

WAIT DON'T HIT THE IGNORE LIST!!!

Actually I've only replaced 2 floats in my lifetime (see my background as a mechanic, diesel and Wisconson/Robin engines). One was on another Merc 110 9.8hp, 1968, it was plastic and developed a pinhole, ran time at WOT. Could have fixed it with epoxy. The new design was the sealed foam type, the other was on a same era (because it came with the previous mentioned motor and 14' jon boat), was a Western Auto Generator. 1300w, 2hp Briggs, the brass float had a large hole from sitting for probably 30 years. Can't remember what the replacement float was on that one. But a new float, little cleaning, new air filter, and it did a little work during Ike recently! Probably a 40yo gasser.

 

[AndyMA]

Today CC offers the 5252 with a 25 hp air-cooled Kohler gas engine and the 5254 with a 25 hp liquid-cooled Kawasaki gas engine

cub cadet lawn mowers

These things have Cat 1 3pt hitch, rear and mid-ptos, hydrostatic drive and ROPS.

Are these CCs true SCUTS or glorified lawn and garden tractors? Your guess is a good as mine. My 21 hp (engine) Kubota B7510HST diesel has the same stuff and definitely is considered to be a SCUT.

Looks like a "glorified lawn and garden tractors" to me.
An expensive one at that.

Andy

 

[Egon]

I'd call it a tool platform. Most folks consider tractors to be small front tires, big rears, pulling' a plow, etc....

Some folks think of tractors as having the same sized tires on all four corners and having up to three per corner!

They might remember what a carb was for but surely they ain't looking for one!

The ones you was talking about Moss are for chores!

 

[WilliamBos]

I have an issue with this statement, there are maybe 4 moving parts in a carb, choke, butterfly, needle, float. 99% of the time you can rebuild a carb without any gaskets if you are careful, if you are not, it's $2 for a gasket, $3 for a needle. Ocassionally a float that springs a leak.

Little water, dirt in a carb, just blow it out, in an injection pump, it'll waste it. It's a lot more complicated.

If you get your gas from a scrap yard, you deserve what is coming to you. Clean fuel is a common sense thing, clean cans are a bonus too. And perhaps changing the fuel filters too.

 

[Soundguy]

If you get your gas from a scrap yard, you deserve what is coming to you. Clean fuel is a common sense thing, clean cans are a bonus too. And perhaps changing the fuel filters too.

No where in his message did he imply that he was somehow using 'salvaged' gas.

yes.. clean fuel is common sense.

I've had more contaminated diesel than gas many times over.. from high volume bulk suppliers no less...

no one 'deserves' bad fuel.. but it does happen.

Come to think of it.. I've nver seen a gasolene algea...

soundguy

 

[D7E]

But the gassers offer NO advantage whatsoever. Why bother. Rebuilds are no more complex on diesels, injector pumps get done by shops, so why bother with gassers.

And at the end of the day ...Value ..gas/diesel...I know what i can sell ..Diesels..?????????

 

[D7E]

Considering the higher compression ratio.. I would say that more skill is required to rebuild a diesel.

I can rebuild a carb on my desk.. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing an injector pump.

An injector pump and the injectors can require some specific test equipment not needed for the average gasser...

Why bother with a gasser.. remember.. Liquified petro engines are gassers.. and there are LOTS of applications for them where a diesel would not be appropriate.. like indoor warehouses.. So there at least one advantage that you dismissed out of hand..

soundguy

We run cummins,ford,detroit,perkins,JD and cat motors from 50-600hp in tractors ,combines and trucks and dozers.Do all our own motors ,even rebuild trannies,Final drives...Not one guy on my yard will touch a gasser....Even the old "Bush men" will say ..."Too much trouble"...???????

 

[D7E]

Well my only remaining gasser is this fordson major and i'm at a loss with it...I ran it for 2 years on the log splitter on my firewood operation.
It tested good for oil presure and compression , Uses no oil,No rust and tyres are reasonable...?
I cannot make it run nice....Carb done..Plugs..wires..cap...Runs like a pig....? But very geniune tractor?..I bought a ford 7000 to replace it as my yard toy.
For sale ........$2450
Front end loader and bucket with it but some hoses missing?
I have diesel of same age .....$3000 with cab...Runs nice but motor worn...This will sell faster?

 

[Soundguy]

We run cummins,ford,detroit,perkins,JD and cat motors from 50-600hp in tractors ,combines and trucks and dozers.Do all our own motors ,even rebuild trannies,Final drives...Not one guy on my yard will touch a gasser....Even the old "Bush men" will say ..."Too much trouble"...???????

That's funny.. our main shop mechanic was a gasser mechanic.. took him quite a bit of catching up to work on diesels.. he's stated many times he prefers gassers.. and yes.. he does trannies.. final drives.. hyds.. etc. Our diesels are similar to yours.. mostly heavy equipment and in the same hp ranges.. etc. I'm sure some of it is 'scope'.. I've seent he heads on some o fthe bigger diesels weight mor ethan a complete gasser engine on a stand.. etc..

To each his own I guess. This thread was sure to be mostly opinion based.. might as well have been about who's wife is prettier and why.. and what car is better... too many variables for a cut/dry yes no on this issue.

soundguy

 

[john_bud]

I have an issue with this statement, there are maybe 4 moving parts in a carb, choke, butterfly, needle, float. 99% of the time you can rebuild a carb without any gaskets if you are careful, if you are not, it's $2 for a gasket, $3 for a needle. Ocassionally a float that springs a leak.

Little water, dirt in a carb, just blow it out, in an injection pump, it'll waste it. It's a lot more complicated.

True, the old carbs were cheap and pretty simple. But cheap and simple does not make it better at it's job of dispersing fuel into an easily burned efficient mixture. The old carbs ran very rich compared to the current carbs. And those are a bit more to rebuild.

As for life cycle, that is a tough one. It depends on what the person meant. Most diesel injection pumps are untouched for 2-10,000 hours. Depends on a lot of factors and most probably go 4-5,000 hours. Most carbs are diddled with a bit every so often. Probably in the couple hundred hours to a thousand hours range. (yeah, that's a swag!). Might be just checking the needle position, or wiping out the bowl, but the point is that carbs are dealt with more frequently than injection pumps.

But when you DO mess with an injection pump, the $$ is higher. But the total cost is still much lower for a diesel tractor per hour of operation in nearly all situations.

So, what's "better"? Depends on what you own!

jb


Moss, glad to see you finally admitted you don't have a "real" tractor! :tongue:

 

[Soundguy]

Moss, glad to see you finally admitted you don't have a "real" tractor! :tongue:

I saved a copy of that for proof!

soundguy

 

[RobJ]

But when you DO mess with an injection pump, the $$ is higher. But the total cost is still much lower for a diesel tractor per hour of operation in nearly all situations.

Dunno, $1000 pump, $100 carb. $500 service on a pump, $20 in gaskets and needle. Seems like you could do a lot of carbs before you get to the price of a pump. Also about anyone with a phillips and a half inch wrench can clean out a carb in the field. Remember if a carb can get gunk in it, so can a pump. A perfect world is not always perfect. Nice clean dirt/water free fuel both will stay in service for a while.

But in reality, we are comparing old technology....to newer.

Also for the record I like my diesel. When I was buying a tractor I also looked for old gasser Fords and such. I wouldn't have hesitated to buy one for my needs. Actually being a bit heavier would have probably been a little better for me.

Still love the sound of the old 2 cylinder JD poppers. My first tractor to ride on. I had to push clutch ever with my foot! Best sounding diesel ever? The old International farm tractors IMO. I-6 if I recall.

 

[WilliamBos]

Best sounding diesel ever? The old International farm tractors IMO. I-6 if I recall.

Well, second to a Lanz Bulldog. Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop!!

 

[Soundguy]

Dunno, $1000 pump, $100 carb. $500 service on a pump, $20 in gaskets and needle. Seems like you could do a lot of carbs before you get to the price of a pump. Also about anyone with a phillips and a half inch wrench can clean out a carb in the field. Remember if a carb can get gunk in it, so can a pump. A perfect world is not always perfect. Nice clean dirt/water free fuel both will stay in service for a while.
ll.

I was going to mention that price disparity as well.. however.. it all boils down to personal preference..some people are just not comfortable with a bucket of berrymans carb dip and a blister pack with a couple gaskets and seats in it... some just don't want to fiddle with it.

As i said.. it's a pay me now / pay me later kind of thing. twiddle with the carb every couple years.. and a few carb rebuilds during the years, and maybe a new carb one time.. = a few hundred bucks at most.. and a couple hours downtime.. vs all those years of more or less hands off fashon on the injector pump till it bellies up on a customers job.. leaves you dead for 2 days getting the rebuild..and then eats a 1000$ hole in your wallet...

I love my deisels too.. I mow with 2 of them... ( had I found a 5000 ford gasser first.. I'd probably own it though... I wanted a 5000.. and diesel wasn't the driving pre-req ).


soundguy

 

[john_bud]

Dunno, $1000 pump, $100 carb. $500 service on a pump, $20 in gaskets and needle. Seems like you could do a lot of carbs before you get to the price of a pump. Also about anyone with a phillips and a half inch wrench can clean out a carb in the field. Remember if a carb can get gunk in it, so can a pump. A perfect world is not always perfect. Nice clean dirt/water free fuel both will stay in service for a while.
.

Don't forget the 50% fewer gallons of fuel needed in the diesel over the thousands of hours. That's where you get your economic gain.

And, price of carbs are a bit higher today. Not that it matters much, your points are still valid!


From a quick google search...

Carburetor, new, for Ford: 501, 601, 701, (1958-1962); 2000, (1962 to 1964) with 134 CID gas engine. Replaces Marvel Schebler carb. part #TSX765 and Ford #B8NN9510A. (Manufactured to duplicate original Marvel Schebler design. Parts are interchangeable with original Ford or Marvel carburetors.)
Price: $231.77

Complete carburetor repair kit. Contains all parts necessary for major carburetor overhaul. For Ford tractors: NAA (1953-54), 600 & 700, (1955-57), with 134 CID gas engine. Repairs Marvel Schebler carb. #TSX428 & TSX580 and Ford #EAE9510C & EAE9510D.
Price: $42.93



Who knew such a simple carb now gets so much money?

jb

 

[wkpoor]

My JD5400 and My Farmall H (its got a 300 engine)are almost the same cu. displacement. The 5400 is miles above on power even taking into acount the H has a very high compression engine (over 200lbs.) After owning and operating the turbo diesel I don't care if the pump is a wallet buster its worth it IMO.

 

[MossRoad]

Come to think of it.. I've nver seen a gasolene algea...

soundguy

What? You've never had to ad a microbiocidalfungicide to a gasser?

 

[john_bud]

What? You've never had to ad a microbiocidalfungicide to a gasser?

Add it? I can't even SAY IT!!

jb