Tractor or Skid Steer?

[RobertN]

When I used the track loaders, I ran up and down short hills, and found I tended to feel less tippy. On skidsteers, I find wheelies happen all the time too. The trackloaders were always "flat" and stable.

My time was limited in the track-loaders though. I have definitely spent more time in skidsteers, although it is in tens of hours(maybe 20-30 hours). I spent maybe 10 full hours in the two track loaders.

I did not find data recomending backing up with the track loaders(basic manuals attached with units. Nor does the ASV web site mention this.

 

[snowbound]

Sounds good for the track loader; I'm asking because on my place there are trails that cross slopes, turn while crossing slopes, are pretty soft ground. So it's not just the front-to-back stability I'm concerned with, but also side-to-side. I'm guessing that it's a lot less likely to put a track in a rut that tips the tracked loader over than it is to put a tractor wheel in a rut that tips it over.

 

[STRAWLAWN]

I have spent a few hours in a RC-30, and many in a RC-50. The ASV RC-50 is an awesome machine, but at 27K unrealistic for me at present.
The RC-30 is a very capable machine for its size. ASV RC-30 cost 22K new but an ASL300 Polaris (same exact machine) cost 15K so I nought one. Attachments are a bit tricky to find
(outside their own line) for it is in a class by itself in between theCUT/SS range. Even a receiver hitch and aux Hydraulic Pressure relief. I think the Polaris deal is good through Feb 04 or until supplies last. Mine cost 15,200 with VA tax and a universal SS plate. No 32HP CUT can't touch this machine IMHO.

 

[Tags]

Just to chime in...I've always had a compact TLB for my landscape/excavation business and never really liked the skid steers, they seem to really tear the heck outta everything and as soon as it gets muddy, double the mess and half the work.
I just purchased a Cat 287 multi terrain loader after using one for the last month and a half to complete a job that was only accesable by a tracked machine. These things will go more places and lift more than any compact or skid steer out there. I am not putting the compacts or skid steers down by any means, but once you have actually used one of the tracked loaders you'll be blown away at what it can do. As far as doing the work that was proposed it would perform very well for most of it,especially in muddy and sloped conditions, the biggest dilemma would be all your trenching work. I know Cat makes a hoe for their machines,but it is extremely expensive, and I'm not sure if the ASV30 will accept a hoe, but I imagine you could always rent a trenching attachment.
All in all though, for general use and something that you will be keeping for future use around a house, a compact tractor may be the best all around investment in the long run. You could do a large portion of your work with it, and what you can't do you could always rent or hire someone to get the job done. A good compact should be able to do most of what you want and be able to help maintain what you've done and last you a long time to boot.

 

[jmc]

Snowbound,

The Gehl tracked loader manual cautions against running crosswise on a hill because it increases the chance of the track walking off the drive sprocket/rollers. This may be a problem for all tracked loaders since gravity puts side load on the tracks as they roll. How would you like to deal with that out on a trail!

John

 

[keeney]

The pro digging company I used to build my house had Bobcat tracked mini-loaders, Bobcat tracked mini-hoes, Cat full-size track loaders, and Cat full-size track-hoes. They also used a large auger on the mini-hoe to drill some round spot footings for a large porch. No problem with some really sloppy conditions.

The cool thing with the rubber-tracked machines is that they could load/unload them just parked at the side of the street. The steel tracked units had to be unloaded by backing them off of a semi carefully backed into position at the edge of the yard. Needless to say, the steel tracked units ripped up the yard.

The tree trimmers, and sod guys I used had wheeled skid-steers. Not because they liked them, but because they couldn't afford newer tracked mini-loaders. The sod guys had to delay a couple of days because of rain. The tree guy ripped the heck out of the yard.

The concrete guys had a tracked mini-loader, but the weather was good when they were here, so it wasn't put to a test.

The 4wd wheeled man-lift I rented got stuck on a dirt pile.

The 4wd wheeled construction forklift the framers brought got stuck in the mud.

The electric company and gas company both had 4wd wheeled trencher / backhoe units (one vermeer, one Ditch Witch). The gas company guy did most of his meneuvering of the machine when using the backhoe by lifting one end of the machine with the backhoe. The weather was good when they were both here - no traction problems or significant yard damage.

The house mover guys had a wheeled skid steer. It lost traction trying to clear snow from my slightly-uphill driveway.

The tracked Toro dingo did get stuck in the mud at the bottom of a hill while trying to do some tilling during actual heavy rain.

The tracked machines sure looked a lot more stable than anything else.

All the tracked machines and skid-steers were all much quicker at digging, loading, moving and turning than my JD 4100 small compact.

None of the other machines would be any good for mowing grass. Some might be OK for clearing snow.

- Rick

 

[del]

I would ditto the fellow's post about his add-on tracks making
his skid steer a go anywhere machine.

I own 2 CUTs and thought about a skid steer. For my use, rough
ground, slopes etc, my alternate machine (when and if I could
cough up the $$ would be an excavator, and those I can rent
the few times I need one.

I watched a fellow with the add on rubber tracks and he was
taking it places I wouldn't take my smaller CUT unless the
bigger one was standing by. The bigger one I've got out of
everything so far using the hoe and can continue to do so
assuming I haven't reached the earth's molten core.

Who was that said "Give me a place to stand and I'll move the
earth"? Backhoes can get you out most of the time unless
the soup you are stuck in is all you have to pull on!

Watching an experienced operator do a lawn with a skidsteer
is amazing. While the rest of the family was trying to
break their legs skiing, I watched an operator clear snow
on the various walkways in Whistler BC. He spun that thing
around so fast and grabbed snow and dumped snow so fast I
couldn't believe it.

What has always worked for me is to rent one of each thing
you are thinking of buying for a day, or half day. Nothing
says "That's the ticket" more than using it on YOUR property
for some hours.

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif<font color="blue">D</font><font color="orange">E</font> <font color="green">L</font>/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[jmc]

Del,

Around here, all the guys who sell tracked loaders have discovered that the best way to sell them is to bring them to your site and let you use them as you intend to if you buy one. If you're interested in a new one, you may not have to rent it to try one.

John

 

[del]

Sounds like a smart move by the dealer.

Some CUT dealers don't even have a spot near them to "play"
on a unit, and unless your property matches their lot it
isn't going to say much. Using one for 10 minutes doesn't
say much either.

Only after you've spent a few hours with it alone on your
property do you know if it will work out.

It also helps to be using the "other" choice the same day
or next day to keep everything fresh in your mind.

Of course if you are thinking on upping the size it is hard
to compare things equally.

The first time I rented an excavator it was too much butt-kicking
fun to look at it logically. Big stumps came out of the ground
like they weren't even attached, and if they were, whatever
size roots there were just broke.

I learned one thing during the rental, that I didn't want even
a smaller backhoe again that didn't have a hydraulic thumb
on it.

It actually worked great by pulling up on the roots the
stumps would tend to break into smaller pieces which would
allow them to burn faster.

I saw a guy once with a dozer that had one of those stingers
on the back to split stumps.

Ah the toys...

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif<font color="blue">D</font><font color="orange">E</font> <font color="green">L</font>/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Libertine]

Phred:

<font color="blue">I also like the fact that you can see the bucket on a skidsteer so well. On my utility tractor you can't see the bucket / forks well. </font>

The NH 35s, 40s, 45s have very good visibility. I have pallet forks & some other skid-steer implements for my TC40 & visibility is almost (note, I said almost) as good as the skid-steer.

Regarding this discussion, with bobcat compatible fittings for the loader arms, you can still use any skid steer implement PLUS 3pt, PTO driven, belt pulley. The CUT is far and away more flexible. It isn't even close. Put another way, you can do anything with a CUT you can do with a skid-steer plus a great deal more but it doesn't work the other way around. Now, if you need maximum output per hour, for specific tasks, the skid-steer (along with trackhoes, etc. and other more specialized tools) can out produce the CUT all the time.

So, do you want the maximum flexibility in one piece of equipment? Or, are you only going a few things and want the most efficient tool for those few things?

JEH

 

[RobertN]

A CUT is great, I have one. I have used track loaders and skid steers too.

A CUT can do soooooo many things. It is relatively less expensive compared to a skidsteer, as are implements. The track-loader is even more expensive than a skid steer.

But! I have seen too many places where I can easily fit a track-loader or skid-steer where there was no way I could fit my little Kubota; even in 2wd and using steering brakes, it was way too long and just could not manuever.

Look at the implements on the Bobcat webpage www.bobcat.com or catalog; I have not seen that much flexibilty in implements for my CUT. Here are a few of the implements just from Bobcat:
Auger
angle broom
planer
cement mixer
cement pump
rototiller
sod roller
clamshell bucket
grapple bucket
pallet fork
6-way dozer blade
Tip and Tilt
trencher
landscape rake
chipper
breaker(jack hammer)
crusher/cutter
rippers
snow blade
snow blower
disc
tree spade
stump grinder
Hoe

They had over 40 implements in thier flier.

Given my expierience on both, I would say, IMHO, FWIW, a skid-steer type tractor can do anything a CUT can do, and more. It can out manuever a CUT, and has a selection of implements that can out work those on a CUT.
The implements though, will bleed your wallet dry! My PHD was $650 with an auger. The one I looked at that fit the ASV-RC30 was like $1500 without the auger bit... The hydraulic powered implements are EXPENSIVE.

Your note on your TC with skidsteer mounts on the loader frame is interesting. Bobcat has had a TLB out for a couple of years now. It is 4-wheel steer, and has full capability attach on the loader arms for skidsteer compatible implements and hydraulics.

Given all that, my CUT is pretty flexible, and I am keeping it for now. But, it is not AS flexible as a Skid-steer/track-loader, and I would like to get an RC30 from ASV and a couple implements like a mower, auger, and clamshell bucket. As I mentioned above, it is expensive though /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

This is, as mentioned above, IMHO

 

[RobertN]

The ASV-RC30 will accept a Hoe. They also have a trencher available. Most implements are also available aftermarket too.

I used a Hi-Flow trencher on a Bobcat S185. It made a 6" wide, 24" deep trench in this rocky Gold Country soil look like childs play. That is a 56hp machine with hi-flow capabilty though. The ASV-RC30 does not have nearly the hydraulic flow...

 

[DIYGuy]

You can't groom a lawn/golf course with a skid steer.

 

[RobertN]

They make some pretty fancy smooth turf tracks for the ASV machines that can work with minimum impact on turf and putting greens. The RC30 only puts 2.7psi down. They can run in, throw a u-turn and buzz back out with hardly any visible print.

Note though, that the track-loader and skid steer are two different, albeit very similar beasts. I have run a 6000lb skid sterr. It can make a mess in a hurry! I have also used a similar sized track loader in wet conditions across a lawn. Impact was miniaml with the track loader.

The track loader is not a total answer, nor is the CUT. They can do some things better than each other. But, the flexibilty of the track-loader/skid steer package is pretty amazing.

As I mentioned, I have a CUT. They are flexible. But, when I can arrange the $$$, I want to move to the track-loader. Hopefully I can pull it off this year.

 

[Libertine]

RobertN,

Their's no question the skid steer is handy, has lots of available attachments, is much more maneuverable and so forth (Is probably safer too, if you're strapped in, with that roll cage - at least I came out ok a few years ago when I went over in one). No argument about that. But the plain fact is I can use any implement made for the skid steer on my TC40, including hydraulic ones. AND all the available 3pt implements, AND PTO driven. I even have a belt pulley that is driven by the PTO (for a 30" cutoff saw).

Further, there is a large pool of available and usable 3 pt implements going back decades for the CUT and much less expensive. Further, there are some things you simply can't do with a skid steer. Example, I have a skid steer "switch hitch" I use on the loader which takes 3pt implements for moving, use in front, etc. and a receiver for a ball hitch (very handy for moving my goosenect). I could attach my 3-14 plow to that switch hitch (mounted on the skid steer) and plow backwards with the skid steer, but hardly practical. I just towed home a square hay baler a few days ago - would like to see the skid steer work with that!

Don't misunderstand what I am saying. For some jobs I would prefer a skid steer myself. They are quick, safer and handy and have a great deal of flexibility. The only point I was trying to make (which was the thrust of this thread) that the CUT is far and away, hands down, more flexible, offers visibility out the back (and in front it isn't that bad, at least my TC40 isn't). If I had lots of money and could buy all the stuff I might like to have, I would like to have a skid steer too. But if you can only have ONE piece of equipment that offers the greatest flexibility the CUT is it.

JEH

PS You list a roto tiller for a skid steer? Wonder how that works (how practical)

 

[del]

I'd like to have a SS sitting around too, but I haven't
won the lottery yet.

If you have to go hundreds of feet across ungraded land
you had better have a young spine to take the bouncing
the SS will give you. A CUT can be bouncy too, but that
short wheelbase is really a killer on rough ground.

Next best thing...

Find a neighbor with a SS who also wants a tractor, you
can switch off on helping each other!

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif<font color="blue">D</font><font color="orange">E</font> <font color="green">L</font>/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[RobertN]

I have used the ASV RC30, and Cat-247, which are track machines(ASV makes ttrack systems for thier own tractors, and for Cat). They ride SOOOOO much better than a skidsteer!

The ASV at least, uses a twin torsion bar suspensin between the chassis and track mechanism. Much smoother than a skid-steer!

I have an ASV demo video. They run a machine across 4x4 posts that would break disks in your spine on a skid-steer, and bounce you so bad you'd have bruises from the seatbelt on a CUT. The RC30 and RC50 just buzzed across them.

There is a distinct difference between the track machine and the skid machine, even though they share common roots.

 

[RobertN]

I think we agree more than it appears. There is no denying the flexiblility of a CUT. Also, the price of a CUT is hard to beat.

The CUT and track-loader are very flexible, with skid steer being close to the track loader, in my expierience.

There is an overlap between machine classes. There are far/pulling tractors which are more centered towards the filed, but can also do general chores. CUT's can do some field work, but do well with most general chores. The skidsteer can do chores, digging, or construction. The track-laoder can do all the skid steer can, plus a lot the CUT can do.

As example, a Faramll Super-A can do lot's of field work for a CUT sized and rated machine. It can plow, cultivate, mow, do 3pt implements, pto drive, belt drive. There are newer tractors that surplant that style, but the idea is the same. A CUT can do some field work, but try to cultivate; the low ground clearance will run over many plants.

A CUT can run a 3pt, support the loader, and run a pto. Try to do field work, well, it could pull a plow, or disc. Cultivating would be interesting as the plants are bent over till they break. They can do lots of general chores.

A Skid steer or track loader can do lots of chores. A track-loader can go where a CUT would not, and even a skid steer can not. They can load, run hydraulic implements, and manuever in very tight spaces. They could pull a plow or disc, but not by 3pt. Bobcat makes a plow, but it appears it is drug backwards, like the guys on CUT's with rear mount snow blowers.

In order of above, farm tractors and CUT's are less expensive. Skid Steers are more expensive, as are implements. Track-loaders are a little more expensive than skid-steers.

I honestly would not look at a skidsteer any more. After using the track machines, I want one. I have used skid steers, and made a real mess. It was clean when I finished, but still... With the track loader, in similar situation, the cleanup was much less, and traction and general manuevering was much better.

The CUT does cover a lot of the "middle ground". And, they do it well, for a relatively reasonable price.

I would like to have a track loader, with some implements, and a CUT as second tractor. Then, I want a bunch of third level tractors, to go alongside my Farmall. When I win the lottery /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif For now, I have my little 19hp CUT; it's half the price for my RC30 when I save up that other half...

About the rototiller, it appears it works by running the tractor backwards.

Interestingly, the Bobcat skid steer, which started the whold skid-steer thing, and now track loader thing(Gehl/Takhuechi started track loaders) got thier start with a Farmer in North Dakts that needed a manueverable machine for cleaning stalls, moving manure, ect. It got it's start as a Farm machine.

 

[Libertine]

RobertN,

<font color="blue">I think we agree more than it appears. </font>

No doubt.

You talk about a "track loader". Am not sure exactly what you mean. I have used track hoes (for grave digging/exhuming bodies) and they are very manueverable and have a good reach compared to a CUT of the same HP & weight. Also, as with any tracked equipment, the psi ground pressure is very reasonable. But what is a "track loader"?

The A is a nice tractor. I bought a Super C as my first tractor for "practice" and learning what I wanted (and didn't want) before buying something more expensive. You're right, the CUT (especially with R4s or if plants are more than 1 foot or so) isn't so spiffy for cultivation. Doesn't even plow that good (R4s are too wide to keep in the furrow without packing the dirt). But the CUT is still the closest to the old "GP" (general purpose) tractors of yore that you can buy today.

The only reason I posted what I did was because this thread was originally a query about which type to get.

Take care.

JEH

 

[RobertN]

By track loader, I mean a machine that is basically a skid steer, except with tracks. Some skidsteers can have steel Grouser tracks added, but these are designed for them from the beginning. Although there are a few manufacturers making them, a good example it here www.asvi.com

The ASV RC30, that I have rented and am thinking of buying in the year, puts a measly 2.7psi on the ground, even at over 3000lbs weight. I would go so far as to guess my 19hp Kubota with R4's put more pressure down, at about 2200lbs with loader and scraper.

I am jealous though, of your tractor. It would be cool to have the extra hp, and put a clamshell bucket up front. That would be sweet

My Farmall-A, while an early GP, has been a trailer puller for me. It was painted up, and has towed Cub Souts to first place in the local Christmas Parade 2 out of the last 3 years.

For the original question, CUT vs Skidsteer, I think the track-loader would be a better match than a skid steer. CUT vs track-loader, comes down to what we have hilighted the last few messages. The info has ben informative; your posts have hilighted some good points /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif