Tractor or bobcat ?

[Tim M]

I am tryng to decide between a compact tractor and a small track loader. I have a bunch of small trees and large shrubs on my property that I'd like to move over the next year or two. My lot is sloped a bit with very few rocks. I bought one of these:

Dirtworks Tree Shovel (Spade Nose): Bobcat Skid Steer Attachment or Tractor Attachment

and rented a Bobcat T140 track loader. Great combination, more than enough power, but my wife lowered her eye brow a bit at the $34k list price. I also rented the little walk behind MT55 but it did not have enough brass. It was not a lift issue but rather lack of traction/weight to drive the tree shoval into the dirt. (Mt55 is 2700 lbs, T140 is 6600 lbs)

I know I should probably continue to rent the T140 but ... ears plugged "la la la la la la la".

I have been looking for a used T140 or similiar track loader and anything in decent shape is around $25k. ASV RC-30 is probably a bit small as well (2900 lbs). Also, I am not too keen on the hefty track replacement cost.

So I have been considering a Kubota L3400 with 463 FEL (quick attach option for my tree shoval) but, I Can't find any tractor with a quick attach to rent.

My question is will this tractor be able to drive the tree shoval into the ground anything like the T140?

It strikes me that the bobcat's arms/hyd cylinders are made for ramming/digging but the tractor's are probably not?

Although I really do like the track loader I am currently trying to locate a Bobcat S100(tires) to rent. It weighs 4100 lbs and is 33 HP, but again although similiar in weight and HP to the L3400 I suspect it would out perform the tractor in my application.

I also know the track loader will be more stable than a tractor but I am not sure (other than renting and rolling each) how much more.

Any input appreciated.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[montejw]

I have a 30 hp 4wd tractor and I've used skidsteers at work. $24k seems like a lot of cash to move some trees and bushes over the next 2-3 years. Though you didn't say how many needed to be moved.

Skidsteers are great, lots of attachments, fast, etc. One thing about them is that they do tear up the ground more than a tractor would. Yeah, it can turn on itself, but it'll leave a mark, if that's important.

Skidsteers can have limitations on sloped ground too. I've had them sitting on the rear counterweight with a loaded bucket. Partly operator error, partly machine design. You can tip them forward too, keep the bucket low.

Not sure if the tractor you're looking at would push the tree shovel as easily as the skidsteer, but you could probably make it work with a little more effort if it didn't.

 

[teg]

Welcome to TBN... Where are you located? If I had a quick attach, I would let you know if an L2800 would work.... I got some trees to move Depending on soil type, tree & root ball size that you are talking about, it might work.


.

 

[Riddler]

If all you have to do around your place is move a bunch of small trees and shrubs, and that dirt scoop is working, then renting the Bobcat track loader (like you have) makes a whole lot of sense. Now if you had other uses for a tractor, purchasing one would start to look more attractive.

I am no engineer, but a mid or large frame compact tractor with enough weight on it ought to come close enough to the results you've been getting with the rented track loader. I have a TC45 with filled R-4s and a BH attachment on the back most of the time. I suspect that the whole package tips the scales at 7,000 or 8,000 pds. Based on what I have done with a 6' HD loader bucket, I am guessing that I could probably probably bury that pointed dirt bucket rather deeply. I have never worried about the loader's ability to endure some compression stress from the front, and I have never detected even a hint of a problem.

Also, the right used CUT can probably be had for half the price of the track loaders you've been looking into. With the track loader, you pay a premium for high hydraulic capacity, ultra-compact size, skid steer capability and alot of other features that it sounds like you don't really need.

 

[brettliddicoat]

if you dont need the tracks i would stay away from them especily in a used machine the main reason is you can replace a lot of tires before you pay off the track repairs also the tracks are a very rough ride on hard surfaces such as packed gravel cement and i would imagine lawns if they are compacted

the other reason is if where you live you would want to use it for snow tracked machines have to much flotation and there for do not get enough traction on snow

also if you live in wisconsin or near i could talk to the sales person at work and see what i can do right now we dont have a lot of used machines in but during the summer we do

brett

 

[North Dakota]

You should be able to pay a professional tree mover right around $100 a tree. Most likely even less if moving a lot of small trees just from one spot to the next on your own lot.

 

[IslandTractor]

If you were happy with the T140 you could certainly get that sort of FEL performance from a midsized CUT. The T140 has lift capacity rated at 1400lbs. Almost any of the midsized 35-40hp CUTs can match that. For less than $19K I got a Kioti DK40se with 2700lbs lift capacity and it would directly mount the spade bucket you already have. Skid steer QA adapters for the other tractors can be had for between $300-600.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Island - skidsteers are usually rated by safe operating loads (ROC or rated operating capacity) for lift capacity while CUT loaders are usually rated by maximum hydraulic lifting force available. ROC is typically less than half of the hydraulic lifting force available, and a skidsteer rated for 1400lbs may actually be capable of lifting 3000lbs or more, though not necessarily safely. However it can lift 1400lbs safely all day, day after day. The CUT FEL rated for 2000lbs can certainly lift that occasionally but may or may not do well day after day, and likely will require an enormous counterweight on the back end of the tractor (filled tires + a weight box or heavy implement on the 3ph) to safely lift the load, while the skidsteer is ready to go with no added weights. (A few skidsteers have optional rear weights that raise their rated operating capacity slightly.) The CUT's FEL is also limited by hydraulic capacity at the rated weight. I would not recommend using a tractor FEL above maybe 75% of its rated lift capacity (not to be confused with a skidsteer's ROC) and then only with every last ounce of ballast called for by the FEL manual.

While both are fun, they really are two different machines. Skidsteers get stuck in rough fields and are rough riders anywhere. Tractors can't maneuver in tight spaces and are tiresome if loading chores will be done for more than 10-15 minutes a day.

 

[IslandTractor]

Island - skidsteers are usually rated by safe operating loads (ROC or rated operating capacity) for lift capacity while CUT loaders are usually rated by maximum hydraulic lifting force available.

Z- points well taken. However, given the task of using a spade bucket to uproot small trees, I think that the mid sized CUTs would still be sufficient. Perhaps not one with a max lift capacity of 1400lbs as you point out but certainly a 40hp CUT with reasonable loader could manage the tree spade bucket and lift the rootball/tree. Of course you are correct in pointing out the need for counterbalance and that is true for virtually all CUT FEL operations. I appreciate that skidsteers have their strengths and advantages over CUTs but at about half the cost, in this case I think the CUT wins.

 

[Z-Michigan]

On that I agree. And obviously buying either one just for moving some trees once is pretty hard to justify. If that's the main task - keep renting the track loader, or consider renting a backhoe or mini-excavator which might do an even better job. A tractor like the L3400 (or any brand's equivalent) is quite handy and will do a lot of different things, but only if they need to be done! I can't tell exactly how small the trees he's moving are, and it may well be something even a SCUT could do, but I don't know.

 

[Tim M]

Last weekend I rented a Bobcat S130. Machine weighs roughly 5000 lbs and lifts 1300 lbs safely. Handled the tree shovel no problem. However, I felt extremely uncomfortable on even my more moderate slopes. No way.

Being unable to rent or demo a tractor with a skid steer quick attach, I took my tree shovel to a couple of tractor dealers to try it.

Kubota B26 weighing in at 4000 lbs did not have enough front end weight to drive the shovel in. The hydraulics just lifted the front end off the ground pushing the shovel in a foot at most. Although I will say the dirt at this dealer was the hardest. I think it may have been an old gravel driveway. Certainly scratching away with the backhoe first would have made getting the shovel in possible, but I would still have to question stability during the move of larger trees. AND these little buggers are very pricey.

Kioti DK35 with woods LC108 FEL. Very close to the T140 track loader. Visibility and precision of shovel placement may be a problem. Perhaps this could be overcome with more time in the seat.

Kubota L3240 with 714 FEL. Very similar to the DK35 but visibility was better. This is a nice machine.

Both the 3240 and the DK35 are too big. I need much more maneuverability as I will be operating in and around some larger old growth trees and sometimes on a slope.

So right now I am demoing an ASV RC-50. Machine weighs 6200 lbs and can lift 1330 lbs safely(3800 lbs tipping load). The tracks on this are almost a foot longer than the T140 and have a "float" feature which maintains better track-ground contact. Noticeably more stable on the slopes than the T140. Ride is smoother as well.

I wanted to try out a L3400 or a Kioti CK30 (may be the heaviest in it's class). These machines set up with a FEL/backhoe and filled tires weigh in around the 5500 lbs range. And are still cheaper than a moderately used track loader...

I think in the long run the tractor w/backhoe is a more versatile machine, but certainly for the more immediate job the track loader is best suited.

Thanks,
Tim M.

 

[IslandTractor]

Given your combination of slopes, tasks and need for manuverability, why not take a look at the PowerTrac lineup. I think you'd need the T12 or larger T18 class for lift capacity but you should be able to adapt your bucket to the PT easily. They are roughly the same cost as an equivalent horsepower CUT and much less than the tracksteers. The only real "downside" with the PTs is that you don't really have a local dealer to interact with or get support from. However, check out the very active and enthusiastic PowerTrac forum here on TBN and you'll see that many guys are perfectly happy.

Versatile Tractors,Compact Tractors,Trailer Packages,Landscaping,Utility Vehicle Rentals,Mowers-Power Trac

 

[downtoearth]

How about this 3-point mounted tree spade to dig and move the tree? This example is advertised on eBay (link and photo attached):

NEW! OASIS T-36 TREE SPADE FOR TRACTORS - (eBay item 170180424642 end time Dec-29-07 14:40:45 PST)

 

[WeedHopper]

Have a BC 853 and it is great for getting into tight places and doing concrete work. My TN65 with 32LA loader digs deeper, lifts twice as much and gets my mowing chores done fast. The tractor is overall more versatile and you can safely exit the tractor with the loader up. Do that with all but a Robot skid loader and you are risking being crushed in the event of a mechanical or hose failure. I have never tried a tree spade on my loader but as much as the tractor and loader weighs it should push it down much better than a BC. As for a 3pt tree spade, they don't push down so you are depending on the weight of the spade. Unless you have at least 50 trees to move, I would rent. Never buy a new skid steer unless you are making money with it. Find a contractor that needs money in the winter and let him take the huge hit on the depreciation. Check out the mechanical condition and engine real good first as they are a pain in the *** to work on as everything is packed in under the cab in a steel bucket with no access. Also, skid steers eat up tires. Oh yes, one other thing. They are slow. Top speed of 5 mph versus 18 - 20 mph for typical tractor.

 

[candersen10]

I believe you are getting some poor information here. Bobcat skidsteers are certainly somewhat unstable on slopes, however, that's not to say that all skidsteers have the same problem. Look at what John Deere has to offer. I have owned a Bobcat 763 (flipped twice), a Cat 257 (flipped twice), and a John Deere CT332 (most stable machine I have ever operated). If you look at Deere skidsteers you will notice how low the center of gravity is and how heavy the machines are. Obviously, the Cat and Deere machines I have owned are larger tracked machines, however, the skidsteer machines without tracks are still clearly highquality. You can also get rubber tracks that fit over the wheels and are supposed to be pretty high quality. As for speed, my tracked CT332 will go around 7-8 mph, not 5mph. A wheeled Deere loader can do around 10-12 mph if you get the 2 speed option. There are very few situations in which I have found I needed more speed for my Deere so I am certain that a wheeled machine will be plenty fast.

Lifting capacity of skid steers is simply much more than comparable tractors. My Deere will easily lift 2 tons whereas my New Holland TN75 will have the rear wheels high in the air even with a heavy rear implement if used to life 2 tons.

The Skid Steers are designed to be used to dig and do loader bucket work. Tractors are designed to do some loader bucket work and a whole assortment of other jobs. If you need to do a lot of 3point hitch work, get a tractor, but if you want to do loader work, a skid steer is absolutely the better option and will be far more stable on slopes provided you purchase the right one.

The below picture is not particularly good. However, the Deere can grab the end of that log with the grapple and lift it all the way to the maximum heigh on level ground without tipping. This is a log that probably weighs around 4-5k pounds.

 

[candersen10]

Take a look at this picture too. Notice how much of the machine's weight is low down. Also, you can very safely keep the loader arms up like in the picture because there is a boom rest which you can activate from inside the cab.