Tractor Literally shaken apart!

Alan L. · Jun 23, 2006

My brother-in-law borrowed my B2710 with KK 60" tiller this week to lightly till about 1.5 acres of very hard, dry clay. When I got it back today I noted the following:

1. A bolt came out of the side gear housing on the tiller. He noticed this and tightened all the others VERY tight, so tight that the rubber gasket is now squeezed out the sides. The hole left by the bolt is open to the gearbox, which probably allowed dirt to enter the gearbox. I checked the gear oil level and it appeared fine.

2. Chain link on the tiller that holds up the back door = gone, vibrated off I guess.

3. Barbed wire wrapped around the horizonal tine shaft next to the gear box. Due to good design on the part of KK by extending the gear housing out over the shaft a few inches, hopefully this did not damage. I'm also not sure it wasn't there already when I delivered the tractor last week.

4. Noticed that both sheet metal fenders on the tractor are wobbly. Noted lose bolts, but also serious stress cracks around other bolts that didn't loosen, probably due to the whole thing shaking violently.

5. Adjustable stop on the lift lever = gone. Vibrated off I guess. Since I need it for mowing, BIL offered the one off his 2410 which he didn't use because the drive shaft was too long for his tractor, plus the 60" is as much as the 2710 can handle, so probably too much for the 2410. I took it, so I'm OK there.

6. Fuel cap gasket = gone. Every time I fuel the tractor I think about how poor a design this in that it is a loose part you have to keep up with every time you remove the cap. But I managed it for 7 years and now its gone.

7. Tractor EXTREMELY dirty. I can only imagine the dust storm while the work was being done.

In hindsight I should have declared the conditions too harsh for my equipment. However, My BIL has been helpful to me for my entire life (he's about 15 years older), so you know how it is.

I plan to visit the Kubota dealer tomorrow and get the replacement gasket for the fuel cap, a new fuel filter (I'm afraid the missing gasket could have allowed dirt to enter the fuel tank), and air filters. I plan to drain all the fuel and replace the filter and hope no damage has been done with dirt in the fuel.

I plan to get a new side gear housing gasket for the tiller, take the panel off and make sure it is clean inside, and replace with new gasket and the missing bolt, and refill with gear oil.

I will then need to make sure all bolts are tightened on the tractor, no telling what else has been damaged internally by the shaking. As for the stress cracks, I don't know what to do about that other than hope they hold up after the bolts are all tightened.

Any more suggestions?

gordon21 · Jun 23, 2006

Many years ago, a very wise 8 year old told me this. It may be the most prophetic thing ever said to me about relationships.

You can pick your nose
and you can pick your friends,
but you can't pick your family...............

Think about that for a minute and remember this came from an 8 year old boy.

Alan: pay the $30 for the parts and move on with life. He will still be your BIL.

Mike_Lipke · Jun 23, 2006

Hmmmmm...........
My Dad told me that you can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't eat your friends.

I'm not sure which is the better saying.

gordon21 · Jun 23, 2006

And I thought I was the only sick person on TBN.

I see I am not alone.

john_bud · Jun 23, 2006

Alan,

Yep your tractor got a shaken and a baken. Some stuff got broke, bent or mutilated. But, isn't the tiller larger than the maximum K specs for your tractor? For some reason, and I may be wrong, I thought K spec'ed less than 60" for the "B" series. Oh, is the slip clutch on the tiller free to slip? It sounds like yours is froze up from rust. The thrashing is much less when the tiller is allowed to slip at the clutch. I know it can beat me up in tough ground using an "L" tractor if the slip clutch is stuck or too tight.

Anyway, The stuff on the tiller has occurred on mine too. Same KK gear drive tiller. It's a good unit but, the Italian company that makes the tiller for KK should have used loctite on the gear cover bolts. I think you can just take the cover off, clean it out then hit it with brake cleaner/degreaser and use RTV on both sides of the gasket. Mine was clean after the exact same deal, except I lost 2 bolts. Be sure to get all the oil out, it will take more than one 16 oz can of brake cleaner and use loctite blue 242 on the bolts.

You will need to weld the cracks on the sheet metal, or they will continue to grow. Just a dab of metal, even a 110v mig will do a good job. Then some touch up paint -- good as new.

And don't be too hard on the BIL, a work'n tractor is gonna get a few battle scars.

jb

Alan L. · Jun 23, 2006

Yes, the KK tiller is rated too big for my tractor. However there were so many on here with the same HP using this tiller I went ahead and got it instead of the 48". Probably a bad move, although it has seemed to handle it fine under most conditions. I should have vetoed his situation, VERY VERY hard clay. He said he could have tilled the asphalt road in front of his house easier.

I suspect the slip clutch needs adjusting. I have never touched it since I bought the tiller a year ago. Maybe it was too tight to start with. Anybody have instructions on how to adjust it.

I just checked KK's website and they don't list a gasket, but do sell the entire gear box for > $400. I have sent them an email hoping they will sell just the gasket. If not I'll salvage the old one or make one.

So, I should clean out all of the oil and the gears with brake fluid?

Alan L. · Jun 24, 2006

By the way, jb, where did you get the 2 replacement bolts? Real KK parts, or did you take one and match it somehow?

ccsial · Jun 24, 2006

My rule is simple. If you borrow my tractor I throw in the operator. ME.

deere_x475guy · Jun 24, 2006

Alan as others have already stated those bolts on gear box cover won't stay tight withour locktite. Mine were always coming loose last year so this spring as part of preparing the tiller for this seasons use I took all the bolts out, cleaned the holes and threads on the bolts and loctited them in place. About 20 hours on the tiller so far this season and now bolts have come loose. Also I think you will be fine re-using the old rubber gasket unless it is torn someone. Hope this helps and good luck.

Bob

JJT · Jun 24, 2006

"VERY VERY hard clay. He said he could have tilled the asphalt road in front of his house easier."

1) You should have done the tilling and 2) you should have waited for some rain to soften things up. I've easily tilled 100 acres in the past 7 years with my Kubota and 72" KK tiller. Almost all in heavy clay. The only thing to vibrate lose were the tines, new lock washers and locktite solved that problem. There's nothing worse than dry hard clay.

browns40 · Jun 24, 2006

Hi Alan,

Sorry to hear you (& the machines) had a trying week...

Again, family is family, so all's forgiven... maybe next time you can be on the tractor... where he's a fellow tractor man this may be opportunity to check out areas on his to watch for just in case (?).

I wouldn't trust any out of the box slip clutch... sitting in perfectly dry warehouse conditions still seems to cause them to bind together...

Here's how to adjust:
1. Get a "feeler gauge"; paint stirrer, nail, file, metal rule--whatever fills the space of the "set" spacing on the clutch in work shape.

2. back the nuts compressing the spring out flush to the ends of the bolt.

3. scribe a line across all parts of the clutch with crayon, paint, chalk--whatever, so you can be sure it's slipped

4. engage the implement at 1500 or so RPM's... a puff of clutch material/dust/rust sometimes blows out. Push up RPM's. Back to idle. Stop PTO, repeat 3, 4, 5 times (polish the faces). (may need to engage at higher RPM's if plates are really froze up)

5. tighten nuts down to spacing of your feeler gauge, OR, in this case, where you're overimplemented, leave slightly more of a gap to encourage slipping at lower forces than "factory"

You're done. Plan on checking for slipping any time you let the shaft sit idle for any amount of time, especially in damp conditions.

Again, sorry about the damage...

dieselsmoke1 · Jun 24, 2006

A good rain does help a lot, however doesn't do a thing for all those baseball sized hunks of granite I've got in mine. I beat the living crap out my old tiller for the first few years here, had a chance to sell it for cheap and sent it down the road. Now I rent a tiller when I need one. May have to change rental yards someday.......

texbaylea · Jun 25, 2006

For those stress cracks and a quick repair if the cracks are short: get "fender" washers, their larger diameter helps distribute the load over a larger area to prevent just such a problem.

Vernon

john_bud · Jun 25, 2006

Browns40 gave an excellent set of instructions on setting the slip clutch. I would only add that if it is froze up, you can loosen the bolts and with them loose attempt to till. That will give more torque than just starting the PTO and free it up. BUT, be ready to raise the 3pt quick! You only want to break it loose and let is slip for a 1/2 second or so. Then just flipping the PTO on will slip it. Oh, if you haven't used the tiller in 1 month or more, you NEED to make sure it will slip, this is not an optional point. It is the only thing protecting your PTO and driveline. More tractors are broken due to poor slip clutch maintenance than I care to think about! Twenty something horsepower suddenly stopping at the far end is going to snap something expensive and hard to fix on the inside of the rear end.

Let's see, there was a Q on the bolts. They are 6x25mm metric fine if I recall correctly (don't trust me on this one!!). I bought them at the local Fastenal store. I used grade 8 or 8.8, probably overkill, but...

For the original poster, there are 2 things to remember on attachments. One is the HP of the tractor to power it. Your tractor has tons of power and can operate very large implements. The other is the weight of the tractor and by inference, it's strength. In the marketing wars, the HP's have been boosted way up, while the weight of the tractors is really pretty low. This allows you to use attachments that are honestly too big. I think you will be able to use the tiller without problems for many years, just keep it out of the hard clay and keep the slip clutch loose!

Happy Tractoring,

jb

Iowachild · Jun 27, 2006

Mike_Lipke said:
Hmmmmm...........
My Dad told me that you can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't eat your friends.

I'm not sure which is the better saying.

Well, I learned it as "you can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you cannot pick your friend's nose"!

bbse · Jun 27, 2006

As for the bolts vibrating loose, I think I would just drill the heads and safety wire them together. It worked on B52's

john_bud · Jun 27, 2006

BBSE,

Loctite is for people without the time to drill bolt heads for safety wire!

Besides, if something rattles off, it only falls a foot or two, not 50,000!

jb

Alan L. · Jul 9, 2006

I received a new gasket and some new bolts from King Kutter, took it a part, cleaned it all up with brake fluid, and put it back together. Its no wonder the bolts won't stay tight because you can't tighten them to begin with, without squishing out the rubber gasket. I put the bolts back with medium blue loctite.

Found some dirt inside the gearbox so I'm glad I changed out the oil. Also, noted quite a bit of sludge in the bottom of the gearbox, so I cleaned that out as best I could.

Here are some pics. Note the clearance between the gears. There is a little play, but I don't see any wear, so I assume this is normal. Note the dirt gear, this is the one at the end of the shaft coming from the main gearbox. Its on top, followed by a transfer gear, followed by the gear for the tine shaft at the bottom.

I haven't gotten around to adjusting the clutch yet, though I know I need to. I think I'd rather have a shear bolt. Seems easier to just replace it when it breaks than making sure the clutch is slipping right all the time.

In hind sight I should have done the job, and if I had, I would have figured out it was too abusive and stopped.

I got into some pretty hard clay today after I put the tiller back together, the tiller was jumping all over the place. Its just too dry right now to do any tilling.

rbargeron · Jul 10, 2006

The gears look fine in the pics - straight spur gears normally have backlash (clearance). A little dust in the oil might act as a lapping or polishing compound - probably not do any damage. But it's good you cleaned it out & replaced the oil. If gears like this ever fail, its usually by a major chunk (2 or 3 teeth) completely breaking out of the gear from an impact load. Or sometimes they split across the center. Visible wear is less common to see because gears are usually hardened and keep their shape for thousands of hours of use.

On the shear-pin vs slip clutch topic, the slip clutch may protect the machine better, especially if someone other than the owner is operating it. If a shear pin is soft enough to truly protect the machine, it may fail often enough to be a nuissance, prompting someone to put a higher-grade bolt - and there goes the protection. Its less easy to cheat with a slip clutch. They do need to be checked once in a while to make sure they are not stuck from rust. But even if they are they may only be 30% high on release torque.