Top O' the Line Box Blade????

[patrickg]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Harv, I was looking at the pix you posted, again, and it sure looks to me that the manual and hydraulic versions are exactly the same. Therein probably lies the problem. You sure don't raise and lower the scarifiers on the manual version while in full operation (max load). So the mechanism was probably built and "perfected" for the manually operated version. Just add a hydraulic cylinder and voila, disaster. Of course it will work if you stop to use the hydraulic raise/lower, the mechanism was designed and or evolved to do that successfully. So I guess my sales rep from the Kubota dealer and I made an unwaranted assumption about being able to raise/lower under way. Yup, I gotta get the industrial version. I'm told it is made to raise and lower while under load. I haven't seen a picture yet but was told the mechanism is totally different (why am I not surprised?). Now the only question is price and size. If I will spend enough to get the 4C2 version and what width can I reasonably pull, 76 or 80 inch?

Thanks again Harv, the pictures showed me what the deal is.

Patrick (anxiously awaiting Monday or Tuesday or)

 

[Harv]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

<font color=blue>I haven't seen a picture yet but was told the mechanism is totally different</font color=blue>

Patrick -

If you back up and take a look at this post, you will see an example of the industrial line. The attachment for that post shows a close-up of the raise/lower mechanism, too.

 

[patrickg]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Harv, I'm sorry, I didn't see this post previously. Great stuff. I think I NEED one something like this. I found Cammond's web site and am geting familiar with their line in advance of going to the factory.

Thanks Harv, again you are dead on.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Harv, glenmac, Here is the latest chapter in the ongoing saga of my box blade. My Kubota salesman did all the interfacing with Cammond. From the representations made to him by factory personnel he was optimistic that I would get a "one time special good deal" as a customer service PR thing. The capo di capi (BOSS of BOSSES) finally got back into town on Tue and today made his final offer. I pay them $50 dollars to repair the damage I did to the boxblade subsequent to their initial waranty repair. Then I give them back the box blade in trade for a larger and more expensive blade with no particular price break. I want to be adult about this and not bite off my nose to spite my face so given my needs and time constraints and convenience I will take the deal. I will also comment further about this situation.

The instruction book does NOT say to stop the tractor prior to raising and lowering the scarifiers. That isn't expected with their other models and wasn't mentioned up to and beyond the time of the first waranty repair. The Kubota guy Kevin D. Luper, a prince among men, asked Cammond about that and in light of the fact that I did operate that way and experienced additional difficulty with their clearly inferior underengineered product which bent like a soggy pretzel, they said you can't do that. A bit late, I think. If that was their position why wasn't that information in the operator's manual. Plenty of other info was in there. If there were a distinction in the required operation between this sorry piece of crap and their industrial rated equipment (rumored to be better) then why didn't they mention it?

It would be too bad if this or any subsequent posts (stand by) prevented any sales of their product with either the Cammond or Gearmore labels.

I have questions: How was I supposed to make a determination that this piece of crap couldn't be operated like its big brothers? Maybe by the laying on of hands to feel its aura or perhaps with a OUIJA board? With one it is OK but with the other it isn't? Of course the prohibition was only issued after the second episode of equipment failure. I think maybe if it were in the operator's manual then I legitimately would owe them for repair and the first repair which they did for free was a boon. It became, not their problem when it recured. Very interesting.

The way that the vox populi is heard is sometimes in the marketplace and sometimes in the courtroom. It is only $50 (for the repair) but lost time and a drove of other issues with monetary consequences are beginning to bubble to the surface any moment now, perhaps. Small claims court seems like a reasonable way to redress my grievance. I hope the big boss has time to represent himself conveniently as lawers are not permitted. Seems like a slam dunk to me. I think I had every reason to believe I could use this equipment in this way since all the other models are used that way and my instruction manual did not prohibit it for this model. If I had an expedient alternative I would take it to avoid contributing volume and profit to them through this additional sale.

I paid nearly $800 for this useless toy and it will cost me about $700 more (plus the $50 repair charge) to get something that is rumored to be usefull. The only good news is that I can probably get it tomorrow. We are coming into the fall rainy season and need to get some things done yesterday with a box blade.

Through all this my Kubota salesman at Chaprell Dodge/Kubota on Broadway in Ada, OK has tried to get me the best deal possible. Kevin D. Luper put himself through college brush hogging and has an extensive farming/ranching background and knows what he is doing. He thought I was not expecting anything that he himself did not expect.

In sharp contrast to the treatment I'm receiveing from Cammond, Chaprell Dodge/Kubota are truly customer oriented. On the way to the dealer to return my box blade this afternoon, I overheated my little Dodge Dakota due to coolant loss. Stopped on side of highway looking like a geyser (not geezer). Nearby body shop gave me two gallon jugs and let me use their water to refil my radiator. The owner says, "here take this one too, its coolant, that will help keep it cool. Is that nice or what? Gave me a gallon of anti-freeze/coolant! When I get the Dakota painted he'll get to bid the job, you betcha. Anyway a lady stopped to ask if I needed a ride while I was pouring water into what looked like "Old Faithful" at Yellowstone. She followed me all the way to the next town to the Dodge/Kubota dealer, just in case. Is that nice or what? I get there and tell the service manager sketchy details of my problem and he gets a mechanic on it IMMEDIATELY. They fix the split hose, fill me up with coolant and (drum roll please) refuse to fill out a ticket. It is a freebie. Then they go in and order me a hose (dealer item). Of course I will buy the hose but still free coolant and free labor to trouble shoot and make a temp fix. Pretty nice, I think. Note all the nice people I dealt with today? The guys fixing my truck had no idea whatsoever what was going on in the Kubota and implement portion of my visit or that there was a tractor side to it at all. They were just being accomodating to a customer.
And then there were the results with Cammond/Gearmore in total stark contrast to virtually everyone else I talked to this afternoon. Sort of paints a picture doesn't it. Given a fresh start and knowing what I know now, I wouldn't get anywhere near their products irrespective of how good some of them may be reputed to be. I'll paint over their name on the side of my new one to avoid advertising for them.

Given two equivalent implements from different manufacturers and knowing what I know about Cammond/Gearmore's business practices regarding customer service, good will, and the like, I would rather buy from soneone I knew nothing about than contribute to the likes of Cammond/Gearmore. Of course Cammond/Gearmore box blades de junk are blissfully unaware that the negative publicity that can be generated by one motivated extremely dissatisfied customer could easily reduce sales sufficiently to exceed the $50 they extorted out of me by an order or two in magnitude. This is sometimes referred to as stepping over the dollars to pick up the dimes. How myoptic can one "business man" be?

If I weren't in such a cheerfull mood due to having dealt primarily with good folks today I would not hold back in such a reserved manner but would instead tell you how I really feel about those (*&^ing (*%*ers.

Of course thats just my opinion, you might like to do business with such people.

Patrick

P.S. This to is NOT an urban (or rural) legend.

 

[gordon]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

The fifty dollars to fix the box under WARR is a bunch of bull. The real reason they want the money is if you do take them to court, it says to the judge that you misused the product. Otherwise why would you pay money to fix a faulty product.

At least your dealer is standing behind you because the boxblade manufactuer sure isn't. I do know a product I will never buy in the future with customer treatment like that.

Good luck
Gordon

 

[RMulkey]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Patrick

If I am understanding you correctly, I am not sure any box blade will do what you want. The heavy duty box blades with the swinging scarifiers that I have used will not allow you to lower the teeth while you are pulling the box through the dirt. The hydraulics simply are not strong enough to push the teeth into the dirt while under load. The Gannon/Woods 4272HD box blade I use is the heaviest duty BB I could find. The ripper bar uses a 3" hydraulic cylinder and is not strong enough to work the way you desire. The manual says you need to stop the tractor before you lower the rippers. There is a mechanical cam that locks in place once the rippers are down. This cam is what carries the load on the rippers so the hydraulics are not loaded all the time. I will do some BB work this weekend and try to lower the rippers on the Gannon to see what happens. I do know that the unit is so heavily built it will not bend anything by trying.

If you are otherwise happy with the blade you have, I would check to make sure someone on this board has actually used the Gearmore in the manner you described before spending the extra money. I know the Gannon heavy duty blades will not do what you want.

Hope this helps.
-Roger

 

[patrickg]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Roger that, Roger. I understand what you are telling me and appreciate your observation. I am not going on my opinion or my wishful thinking. The Cammond people told my Kubota guy that their industrial rated units were made to do that. My Kubota guy is no dummy and he expected the one I had to do it. AFTER it failed, they then say you have to buy the industrial unit to do that. This whole thing would have never happened if they were up front and put the info in the ops manual. I would have either accepted that limitation (and it is a fairly limiting restriction, sometimes) or opted for the "industrial" unit. So the expectation that the *^&%*^& brand will allow the operator to engage and disengage the scarifiers is based on the manufacturer's claims and puts possible failure squarely into the resonable-expectation-of-waranty envelope.

We'll see what really happens. My Kubota guy is going to deliver the replacement to me early next week. Yet another indication of the level of service granted without asking from Chaprell Dodge/Kubota on Broadway in Ada, OK.

Patrick

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

I wish my local tractor dealers were half as accomodating as yours. Don't think it would much matter which color (prefer blue) you were buying if you can get a dealer to stand behind you this much. The dealers in the So. Md. area look more towards profit lines than repeat business (no discounts on two or more pieces of equipment, no free deliveries, etc.) Just as easy to run to Delaware to buy stuff (cheaper and no taxes).

 

[RMulkey]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Hi Patrick,

I checked my Gannon box blade today. It will not fully lower and lock the scarifiers if the box is being pulled through the dirt. It did not bent anything. I can hear the hydraulic relief valve open up if I try to lower the scarifiers while the box is under a load.

Hope this helps.

 

[patrickg]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Thanks, that is another data point. I'll post the results of my new box blade after I get it and check it out in my style of usage. Hope to get it first half of next week.

Thanks again,

Patrick

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

I brought it out to you, but you weren't there, so I just left it. I left the keys on the rear tire under the right fender. Don't tell me it wasn't there when you got back... /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

MarkC

 

[Harv]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

** DOH!!! **

 

[RPM]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Patrick (patrickg),

Depending on how life with your new box-blade progresses, you may have some patentable ideas here that you could (sweet justice) license to a box-blade manufacturer.

I see little reason why the scarifiers should not be able to be lowered on a box-blade with an appropriate design.

Patrick (RPM)

 

[fractal]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Harv, Cammond does make the Gearmores. I spoke to Gearmore, who told me they have no dealers outide of California, Arizona and one other western state. They gave me the name of a guy at Cammond, who confirmed that Cammond's 2C2 series is the same as Gearmore's 2G2 series.

<hr></blockquote>

I just bought a Gearmore post hole digger from a dealer near my in-laws. The dealer did not have the 9 inch auger I wanted but when I told him my route home he had me stop at Gearmore and pick it up. That gave me a chance to talk to the people there as well as stuff the auger in the mini-van along with 3 kids, wife, post hole digger and a whole bunch of xmas stuff

Anyway, Gearmore is a distributer plain and simple. They don't manufactuer anything. Some of what they sell is no more than branded products. The post hole digger I bought is made by Danuser and the cheap yellow Gearmore paint is scraping off and you can see the Danuser red under it. Other items are made by equipment manufacturers to Gearmore's specification. The people seemed honest and helpful.

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Hey Patrick, I don't know how I missed this post as it is right up my ally. I have the 72" 2G2 Gearmore. I know of no hydraulic activated scarifier bar that activates under load, they all need to be locked into position, the ram does not hold the scarifier in place but simply swings and activates a locking pin or other device. They must be lowered while the box is up. The picture of the box blade you bent is quite frankly "a weenie" and looks like it is built for a 2 wd tractor. Your L4610 has far greater pulling power then that ripper bar could possibly handle. I have been such a strong advocate here of getting a HEAVY box blade as I have seen many light weight boxes on 4WD change shape. The L4610 could handle a 76" box, but that would be it, don't go wider then that unless your ripping paper bags and pulling dust.

P.S. the only way rippers could activate that I could see under load is if they lowered straight down rather then pivot as both Gearmore and Gannons do. I use the rippers and have boken many shanks but never bent the ripper bar, catch a solid rock with the light box and their gone with a tractor such as yours. If it were me, I would get the 4G2 in either the 72 or 76" width. The 4G2 for the extra weight and 5" pull and ripper square tubes. Anyway, this may all be moot as its been awhile since you posted alot of this stuff, Rat...

 

[patrickg]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Hey Rat, Is it better never than late or better late than never? Your response is welcome but too late to influence my upgrade decision. I upgraded to an extremely HD Gannon, not what I wanted to do but sort of an economic default position. The light duty Gannon, bent orange one in picture, worked really well and I liked it a lot. If they would have beefed up the raise lower parts I would have kept it but they repaired it "under waranty" back to stock condition the first time and charged me to repair it the second time before they would accept it back in a trade up deal. Gannon acted in a very unprofessional manner (AT THE TOP MANAGEMENT LEVEL). I have a very big bone to pick with their ethics (or lack thereof).

The light duty boxblade did raise and lower while in use and until its light duty underbuilt mechanism was overstressed and bent it was a dream to operate. Its scarifiers did not rotate but raised and lowered sort of rectilinearly which alowed you to adjust ripper depth independent of the box blade height and cutting angle. It was fantastic. If its construction was as robust as the unit I upgraded to it would probably last just fine, especially in my rock challenged acres (very few rocks and those in a very few locations). But alas, they would not compromise or even consider a customer advocate position. I was especially ticked when I had to pay them to fix it so they would accept it on trade. They do not prohibit operating the scarifiers whenever you want on the HD model but claim it is prohibited on the first one (light duty). Nothing in the operators manual for the lighter version prohibits operating while in use nor did the Gannon folks say anything negative about it until after I trashed it the second time. They just make it up as they go depending on what is in their favor. The only thing that has prohibited my demanding a showdown in small claims court is I have too much to do to take the time. I would really love dragging their top guy dowm to the courthouse and embarrassing him with public display of his actions.

Patrick

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Patrick, thats great to hear, which Gannon did you get? A 72" . They make the best INDUSTRIAL boxes around. I see the 96" 4X4's on the industrial tractors at the rental yards exclusively. I find my 72" Gearmore 2G2 is about all my L48 can pull when filled and still cutting. The soil I have here is not very rocky, but is very abrasive, it is mostly decomposed granite. The traction I get even with R4's is so good that it will stall me even in low. Anyhow, I'm glad you went the best route, its hard to convince folks it is the best choice because of the cost, but that will be your last boxscraper you will ever need combined with the added ballast for loader and safety since dropping that box to the ground is better then throwing out the anchor, let'er rip, Rat...

 

[patrickg]

Re: Top O\' the Line Box Blade????

Rat, I think the Gearmore and Gannon are one and the same, like Johnson and Evinrude, identical in many models but perhaps something may only be available in one brand not both. This unit measures 72 inches ID and is about 21 1/2 tall at the back of the box. Yup, a box full is not a trivial quantity. My Kubota L4610HSTC has to go to full throttle in low range sometimes to stay at or above the peak torque RPM in 4wd with scarifiers engaged and the blade cutting (full HST pedal) and then have to feather the HST pedal to go uphill. Don't need a bigger box! Course you can either cut or rip but not always both depending on soil conlditions. Roger your DG. I have a lot of clay and few surface rocks (a few places with red sandstone at surface). Most of my sandstone is 10 ft under or more.

Whew dogies, it just started raining like a cow on a flat rock. Couple degrees cooler and it will be a heck of an ice storm.

Luckily I got my tractoring in this morning. Handling block 18 at a time strapped together with plastic strapping 40 lbs each or 720 lbs per stick. If I had the box blade on for ballast I could do two sticks at a time as the pallet forks are rated for 1300 lbs. and I have faith that they allowed for the load at the end of the blades (I got the longer of the two choices) but the blocks would be less than 32 inches for two rows with the CG at 16. Have the 3PH PTO cement mixer on the back now as I am building a safe room/storm shelter. Todays rain delays any box blading for a while. Got 40-50 or more mallards on the two nearest ponds but they don't seem bothered by this weather, especially since we put out some corn for them.

Like you said, this unit seems prety robust and short of something really dumb and or unusual it should last generations (with the possible exception of the hydraulic cylinder).

Patrick