Toolcat or Utility Tractor

[DocD]

I have been reading this forum for a few months now and have been really impressed with the information and knowledge that is shared here. I was introduced to the toolcat by a relative and have been very intrigued by its design and function. A month ago I purchased about 10 acres of land that will need mowing and landscaping for our house. I initially was thinking about a toolcat for mowing, landscaping, and eventially snowblowing our driveway. Adding this all up with the new D-series I had a few quotes at about $43,000 with the mower, snowblower, and bucket. This was quite a sticker shock for a residential homeowner (hard to justify a $43,000 mower and snowblower). I then demoed one and really liked the job it did and was really impressed - almost ready to write the check, when..... A friend of mine who is an engineer with Deere suggested that I first look at a JD 3000 series tractor with a cab, air, belly mower, front mounted snowblower, and 2000# + lifting wt. loader. With all the options (fully loaded), and equipment, the 3720 was about $10,000 cheaper.

Now I am writing to you all with the knowledge.... why should I spend the extra 10 grand for the toolcat as the only benefits that I can see are the 2 person cab instead of only 1 and the hydralic dump box. Otherwise the JD has about the same HP with more PTO HP and it also has a 3pt. hitch along with the mower actually being a true finish mower with higher blade speed since it is run off a mid-mount PTO with mechanical drive. Don't get me wrong, I really liked the toolcat when I demoed it, but am currently having a very hard time justifying the extra $10,000 over the loaded JD- Please help.

Thanks,
DW

 

[theoshin]

i traded in my tractor for the tc

the tc is better in tighter quarters - around houses, barns, trees, etc. it's bucket is much more precise and you can see what you are doing much better - for example landscaping up against the house/barns. it's loader in my opinion is much better than a tractor for fine work like landscaping. i can snowblow my driveway with tight turnabout and 8 garage doors with only using a shovel in two small corners - the tc can turn sharp enough to blow perpendicular to the doors - go one way then turn around and do the other door. i use my broom for snow more than anything and it gets used several times per month to clean all the pine needles off the driveway. also much quicker to change attachments. it just is more precise allowing me to get closer to everthing with every attachment.

the downside - it does not have anywhere near the traction of a tractor with real tires. it will not do well in mud or soft conditions. i also find it difficult to dig into our soil as it contains a high concentration of clay. we are having major landscaping done now and my tc was not able to dig out for the patio - even loaded in the back the tires lost traction. the landscapers used a large skid steer to move out 100 yards of dirt. others have had better luck - in the softer areas i had no difficulty moving out 12 inches around the barns. it's attachments are also significantly more expensive. it also is more expensive to buy and likely has a higher upkeep cost vs the jd 3000 series as it has more complicated engineering. tractors have been around for a long time and jd has figured out all the bugs.

if i were to do a lot of mowing and occasional snowblowing/removal on a straight driveway i would probably get the jd. if your driveway is long with turns or a tight area i would go with the tc. with the tc i can snowblow my entire driveway and barns in 1/3 the time it took with the tractor. it also does a much finer job. there is no way i could creep inches away from my doors with a snowblower mounted on a tractor. visibility is also much better as you sit immediately behind the attachment.

i would go with the tc unless you really want the 3pt attachments or have a straight driveway. overall i think the tractor excels in the field and tc on the roads and in/around buildings.

btw - what attachments specifically were included in that price???
my 240 snowblower was near 6500 and the 72 or 90 inch mowers list at around 4700.

ts

 

[DocD]

I do know what you are saying about the maneuverability of the toolcat. When I did demo the machine, it was very nice to be able to mow around the trees (about 2000 seedlings on the property currently). I would be getting the JD with the turf tires so the traction problem would probably be the same with both vehicles. I also have a concern about the mower as when I did get into the deep grass/weeds at about 2-3ft high, the mower would skip and have a tough time with the thistle - have not tried the JD with mower but assume this may be better with the higher blade speed of the true finishing mower with the PTO drive.

The price quotes were very fair in my opinion with reading the info. on this board. It was quoted with 5600T D-series with cab/heat/air, HD battery, High Flow Package, Attachment control, 62" general purpose bucket, 90" mower, 72" SB200 Snowblower, 9.6 Drivemotor package, engine block heater, freight and setup.

The JD 3720 with 60"blower, CX300 loader, 72" 7iron mower deck, deluxe cab, and turf tires was the other package for almost exactly $10,000 less.

Keep the info/opinions coming, as I really appreciate the first hand knowledge that you all have with both machines.

Thanks,
DW

 

[dsb5610]

DW,

I mow pastures and periodically CRP areas with a 72" near finish on my Toolcat. I find that anything 2-3ft tall requires either one very slow pass or 2 passes. The distance from the front to back of the mower is not long enough for that size material to get stood up for a clean cut. My guess is you would find the same thing to some degree with the JD mower. I had a 2210 and a 60" deck and that was my observation. There are better options for mowing that type of material. If you will be cutting that height once then re-cutting at 1ft I think you will like the results.

dsb

 

[Rolando]

I bought my Toolcat when I planned to use it on a five acre parcel. I ended up on a 13 acre pecan grove and have really missed the 3-pt hitch. There just aren't any good solutions around the lack of a 3-pt on the Toolcat. If you will need to work the land (tilling, disking, etc) I don't think the Toolcat is tool for it.

Also, having a 3-pt hitch would let you consider a flail mower. I think they give you a better cut that the semi-finish rotary mowers, can deal with taller grass better, and mulch the clippings better as well. And you can get wider units than the 6 feet of the belly mowers. If you get one with a forward rotating drum, it will stand up the grass blades the tractor tires lay down before cutting them so that you don't end up with tracks of uncut grass.

By the way, before making your decision, I would check out the Kubota Grand L40's. I looked at comparable Kubota and JD tractors and the Kubotas blew away the JD's, in my opinion, as well as costing several thousand less.

 

[yellowdogsvc]

IAlso, having a 3-pt hitch would let you consider a flail mower. I think they give you a better cut that the semi-finish rotary mowers, can deal with taller grass better, and mulch the clippings better as well. And you can get wider units than the 6 feet of the belly mowers. If you get one with a forward rotating drum, it will stand up the grass blades the tractor tires lay down before cutting them so that you don't end up with tracks of uncut grass.

.

There are plenty of hydraulic flail mowers out there that will fit a toolcat since it takes many of the attachments that a bobcat will take. Also, isn't a 3pt hitch an option on the D series out yet?

I am also interested in this discussion. I have two s300 Bobcats and I am considering adding a toolcat or a tractor to my machines. I have a person coming to work for me and I thought I could train them better in a tractor or toolcat versus a skidsteer.
I work in rough conditions mostly but want a machine that can move mulch from point a to point b on a ranch and especially for mowing with a brushcat in cleared fields and around and under oak trees. The Bobcats just beat me up too much mowing and fuel consumption is real high for that type of work. Tractor guys can price much lower. Anyone have any experience with the toolcat and brushcat combo? What about using an industrial grapple?

 

[theoshin]

i use the 60 inch brushcat.

it is extremely durable. it will cut 2-3 inch saplings with no difficulty. i use it for my woods roads. much heavier built that the rhino i had (3pt). it weighs in at 1700lbs and is only 60 inches wide.

out in my pasture with the heavy grass green and 3ft high i can go around 2.5-3mph with the brushcat. it leaves a very clean cut. if it was mowed earlier i am sure you could go faster. a similiar priced tractor would get you into the 75-90 hp range even with a cab. that tractor (i had a mccormick cx85 and a jd 5410) can run a 7 or 8 ft brushcutter type mower at 4-5 mph in the same field at that grass height. i ran a 84 inch rhino at 4mph with my tractor. 2.5mph with a 60 inch brushcat is going to take a lot longer. I would be interested to know how a 4000 or 3000 series jd or grand 40 kubota would do with a 6 ft mower in my fields. i am sure they could not handle a 7 ft brush mower. problem is that the 85 hp tractors are too big for work off the fields. i could not justify keeping the big tractor for work in my 2 pastures only.



ts

 

[Rolando]

I'm certainly not the expert, and someone can correct me, but I don't think we can directly compare the horsepower of the Toolcat and a tractor. In the Toolcat, that 56 hp is going into pushing a lot of hydraulic pressure. Everything in the Toolcat runs off of hydraulics. In a tractor, a lot of the engine power is going into driving the PTO. The tractor hydraulic pressure isn't nearly as high as the Toolcat's.

I don't know if this is similar to your situation, but I have a Befco catalog and they list their 84" cutting width rotary cutter as working with tractors from 50 to 100 hp. I don't think the 3000 JD's would work, but the 4520 or 4720 should. They're 53 and 58 hp respectively. In the Kubotas, the L5040, 5240 and 5740 all are 50 hp or more. Granted these tractors are at the low end of the recommended range, but it seems that they wouldn't list 50hp as acceptable if the performance would suffer.

About the 3pt hitch option for the Toolcats, as far as I can tell from postings here it is still in design and not available. Radman1 posted this thread last month talking about it.

 

[yellowdogsvc]

i use the 60 inch brushcat.

it is extremely durable. it will cut 2-3 inch saplings with no difficulty. i use it for my woods roads. much heavier built that the rhino i had (3pt). it weighs in at 1700lbs and is only 60 inches wide.
ts

I have been using brushcats since they were first introduced. I wore out my first one and I am on my second. I use it to finish a property after I have sheared, chipped, grinded and moved of the chips. I have a lot of low live oak branches to avoid. The height of the skidsteer, the beating I take, and the fact that is has to skid to turn, make me really try to avoid mowing anymore. I just don't like the driving around all day. Just not comfy anymore.

here's a pic of a typical brushcat job.

 

[jmfox]

Could you accomplish the same result with brush hog on your tractor?

jmf

 

[theoshin]

my rhino was worn out from all the rocks on my trails. it was abused.

my neighbor has a new 4000 series jd with a 6 ft mower and my father is very good freinds with
the local jd manager. he has been selling jd's for over 40 years. he told me a 7 foot brushhog would be too heavy for the 4000 series. they only weigh 3500 to 4500 lbs unless you load the tires or add ballast. it might work but he advised against it. he said for a 7 or 8 ft brushmower the 5000 series would be needed. 2 other jd dealers told me the same thing. they all said 6ft is as big as the 4000 should go. i was originally set on buying a new 4000 series jd tractor before discovering the tc. did a lot of research on the tractor. it is a nice machine. they hydro trany is easy to use.

mowing grass takes a lot of hp. a tractor will put more hp through a pto than the tc can via hydraulics. that is the downside to hydro. that being said, i doubt a 3500-4000 lb tractor is going to be able to handle a large mower. in the end i did not
think the 4000 series jd tractor was going to be that much faster. for the price of the tc you could get into the 80 hp kubota, mccormick, and jd lines. i do miss my air ride seat and the cushion from my 18 rears. after 2 hours in the tc i am ready for a break - hard on the back.
if money were no object i would have a tractor sitting in the barn too.

ts

 

[yellowdogsvc]

Could you accomplish the same result with brush hog on your tractor?

jmf

I started out using the tractor to finish my jobs. I used a JD 35 hp 4wd. The brushcat mows lower and with the steel roller stays in contact with the ground. Having it out in front makes it easier to get right up to trees and it is safer than trying to duck under trees in a high profile tractor. I also have quite a bit of reserve power with the brushcat though it has had its share of problems that bushhogs do not.

Also, I have yet to run a bushhog that does as fine of a mowing job as the brushcat.

 

[yellowdogsvc]

What series TC are you using? This is one of my great concerns. I get beat up in the skidsteers in this rocky terrain of S. Central Texas hill country. Rough to say the least. I do not mind brush grinding or tree shearing but can't stand moving materials from pt. a to pt. b and I really hate travelling long distances. I recently switched to air filled tires after 10 years of solid filled. Some relief but I still get a backache. In fact, I bet I am 2" shorter than I was when I started 10 years ago!

I am looking at a TC for the following reasons:
We have a ranch and my 60 something mom wants to have a tool to help her with chores when it isn't at work
I have 20 something kids that want to help with the family business and I think the skidsteers are too tough and the learning curve too long for girls (call me sexist) but I get beat up regularly in the skids
I want to be able to light road maintenance and load and unload my flatbed truck and grapple brush and brush mow fields and dig post holes. I find that my vertical lift s300's do not run the post hole digger very well due to the weight distribution and I think it is a waste of fuel in an 81 hp machine to move light brush.
I am also looking at a stump grinder that another operator can run and I have a landscape rake and other cleanup tools that I figure a TC could run.

On the flip side, I thought a hydro tractor in the 40-50 hp range would be a good fit for us since I found many uses for our JD which I no longer have.
I understand that some tractors offer skidsteer quick attach? That would solve the implement issue as I have plenty of implements. By the time I add a cab and air, though, I am back to a high profile and heavy machine. I just don't think I can find a compact size in a tractor that has the power or features of a toolcat.

Any thoughts?

 

[theoshin]

i agree. i think the tc sits between the 4000 and 5000 series jd in terms of usable power.

i have a "c". i have not tried the d. it should have a much better ride. the c is very rough out in my fields if i go over 2-3 mph. i make it a habit to not buy anything new the first yr out. the new d has a lot of new engineering. i will look at it in a yr or 2. i would buy it for the better ride. i am not convinced it will be as durable vs my solid axels. they are very beefy.

no perfect machine. for chores, post digging, non heavy digging/bucket work (such as moving materials) the tc is the cats meow. i just did a bunch of posts - the arm on the tc is excellent. the bucket is much more precise vs any tractor. i can get within an inch of my doors for snow removal. i tried that with my tractor and took off a good chunk of siding. for moving snow it is the best of anything i have seen. for near finish mowing low grass it is also excellent. it think for mowing my roads with the brushcat it is also very good - it is nice to have the mower out front. were it falters is in field work or wet ground when compared to a small ag tractor. but, i think to really beat it in field work you have to move out of the utility tractors and into the small ag tractors (75-90hp). they cost about the same. the pto on those machines have much higher capacity vs the 4000 series jd or the tc. they put a lot more hp out than the hydro attach on the tc. i also think the tc is very easy to learn to operate, very safe, and very easy to change attachements. there is no comparison between the tc and a skid steer for visibility. my tc is rough but rides better than any skid. it is also much easier on the terf. it would be much easier to teach a non-operator to use. also, i hate changing 3pts. i can change from bucket to broom (the hardest to attach) in less than 5 minutes and no grease on my hands. i have put about 3x more hours on my tc in the last 10 months than i put on my tractor in one yr. i just find it useful for many chores. for example - i put the 75 gallon sprayer in the back and had our engineer and machine shop fabricat a 10ft boom. it works great for spraying my food plots, gravel parts of roads, deicer, and for spraying weeds around the barn,houses, and our patios. i also find the broom very useful.

i guess you need to demo a d. if i was picking between a ag tractor and the c for mowing i would definately take the tractor with an air ride seat. for everything else i would take the tc.

what problems have you had with the brushcat???

 

[DocD]

I have demoed the D series and I can tell you it has a very nice ride. The lot that I purchased was a field before and now has become the new home to many pocket-gophers. Going over the lot a few times with the TC mower I could actually go as fast as I wanted with the new suspension and really did not notice the ruts/bumps at all. When I take my Yukon XL over the lot I have to go about 1mph as I am thrown every which way. I really am not to worried about the ride as the 3720 comes standard with an air-ride seat in the cab. I will not be doing much "brush" cutting after the 1st clearing of the land. It will mostly be mowing - and I am usually quite perticular about the yard and grass and would like to have the nicest cut possible. The yard will be about 3-4 acres and it will be irrigated and fertilized. I am worried about the weight of the tc as coming in at close to 5000#, I am concerned that it may cause ruts in the lawn (has anyone experinced this problem???). With a new little girl, I would like to take her with me while mowing in a few years and am disappointed that the JD only really will hold 1 person as I was excited about this with the TC of being able to bring the little one along. I really would like more info on the mowing differences between the two with the finishing mowers if possible.

Thanks,
You guys are a great source of info.

DW

 

[Robert_in_NY]

The toolcat would be worth it if you wanted a utilty vehicle for the property as well as something to do work with. The Kubota RTV is the closest UTV to the Toolcat and that machine is around $15k so if you toss that onto the price of the tractor then the Toolcat is a good option.

But if you don't want or need a utility vehicle then go with the tractor and use the money you save to either take a nice vacation or buy some attachments for the 3pt like a backhoe or something

 

[theoshin]

i mow part of my lawn. the tc does a good job.

i too take my boys (3). i had a buddy seat on my tractors but i did not
fit well myself in the new jd cabs. it is nice having the 2nd seat with a seat belt.

about ruts - i find if i go out in the wet or spring i leave ruts. it i wait until things are dry no problems.

 

[trlbrkr]

I have a D with the 90" finish mower, NH TN 75 cab and a Kubota 105x cab, I use a Kuhn 90" flail and Kuhn disc mower on both. I used the C for 2 weeks giving excellent opportunity for comparisons
The C gave me problems with my back and I have never experienced this with the D
The Finish mower is excellent on grass but needs 2 passes on milkweed or small brush if you want it to look good. It is so easy to hook up compared to a 3 point there is no comparison..Also you can just lift and tilt the mower up to sharpen blades...you will easily mow close to the trees saving on string trimming time ,I use mine on 3 large challenging lawns rarely scalping compared to my 48" exmark.
The 10 grand is well worth it in driver fatigue and finesse of operation for mowing and blowing and having suspension over the JD. Also much easier to get in and out of than a tractor

 

[yellowdogsvc]

i tractor with an air ride seat. for everything else i would take the tc.

what problems have you had with the brushcat???

The brushcat I have is about 3 years old. It doesn't have the newest linkage which looks more versatile. The problems I have had were with the motor loosening and cracking welds on the motor mount. I have also gone through seals like crazy in the gearboxes. I have nearly zero problems with motors leaking so i wonder why Bobcat uses a gear box. I have also broken gear teeth when I hit a stump or rock. The brushcat (both units I've owned) stops hard, that is, when you let off the hydraulic power at full throttle or the lift shutoff engages, the blades stop hard and clank. I have broken blade bolts that way and you can see under the deck where the blades hit the housing in a hard stop.
I have also had a rear roller fail, fall off, and make the unit unfixable. They tried everything and bearing after bearing would fail so I bought the new unit and sold the other for use without a roller. Other than that and some hoses getting pinched from the lift linkage, it has been a good machine. I would change the gearbox, hose routing, and access door for starters if someone asked me.

I am looking to be able to do chores with the TC and move materials including myself and some chainsaws into the woods. I do all the heavy clearing with the s300's but hate mowing with them. I usually don't have that high of grass to mow after I get through clearing. I use the brushcat as the last tool so by then I have usually grinded the hard stuff and sheared the big trees and chipped.

I just don't know how versatile a tractor would be other than the mowing. I don't need it to dig or lift anything and I already have so many bobcat attachments that I would have to start collecting tractor attachments again and that's just more money...but a tractor is a comfy ride and more room relax in the cab, right?

 

[jmfox]

How well would the brushcat work on my ASV track machine? From what I understand, the tree choppers generally do not handle grass well. A mower is too light, but the brushcat with it's rollers and dual action cutting system seems like a mulching mower that I could use for maintenance cutting. Then again, once the bushes and suckers are cut, a rough cut bush hog on my ford tractor would probably handle it much easier and cheaper (except for getting under the pine trees). I'm also a little concerned about spending time and money on repairing cracked welds and seals etc. on a brushcat not to mention putting hours on a $50k machine. Three years is way too young to be having such serious maintenance issues. I've used a 6 foot bush hog finish mower every week for 20 summers. Had to change the belt every time and again, a wheel once and had to hammer out the discharge shoot when it gets bent, but otherwise no trouble.

jmf