Thoughts on mega wind and solar projects

[Hay Dude]

Yeah, but it is supposed to be drama about "Thems thar Renewables is a Wreckin the Gridation I tells You!"

US is now playing, "Who can be the Dumbest in the World?" and is unfortunately winning.

Real Deal, it looks like the Spain Grid issues were Control and Protection Relay Settings. We had that problem from settings a couple of decades ago in the US. One device trips the next in a reverse sequence and causes what we call "Cascade Failure."

Now US use what is sometimes called "Ride Through" level settings. So things have some flexibility in response to out of spec conditions. Makes things far more robust at a (very slight) risk trade off for protecting local equipment.

So anyone who disagrees with your “solar-gods” dogma is illiterate, right?

One eruption of a volcano, like the Mt St Helens volcano eruption in 1980, blackens the skies for weeks and we have no power in parts of the country. Lots of people die. Hope you’ll be up front with all your university degrees explaining why solar was the way to go.

 

[Phil Timmons]

I have a BS in environmental design from UMass. I actually moved to TX when I was offered a full scholarship for grad school at UT Arlington for the same. However, I started the air emissions testing job and I just ended up going down that rabbit hole instead of going to grad school. I did some of the Part 75 acid rain testing, completing the first complete test series in the nation at a coal plant in Arkansas. The early Part 75 testing made for some long days, commonly working 18 hour days or longer. I then moved to doing mainly boilers, incinerators and furnaces including the test team leader for testing at a chemical weapons incinerator pilot plant for destroying nerve agents and blistering agents and also a Ukrainian ballistic missile fuel incinerator (part of START II treaty).

I later went on to work for a large SCR system supplier, doing commissioning, later as a director of engineering. I'm listed on some patents for control philosophies and some other innovations for those systems.

I always joke that I'm sort of a jack of all trades, but an expert of nothing. I do instrumentation and controls, including PLC's and logic, mechanical, electrical, emissions and all the other tasks. Kind of a general cat herder and intermediary between my customer, their customer, the end user and all the disciplines and trades required to get it done. It's been a great career. I'm heading out next week to do some troubleshooting on a unit and the following week I'll be somewhere else to train some operators on their new SCR system. It never gets boring.

ahhh. Fun history. You want to be careful on getting too close to any small local college. They will snag you up quicker than TXU (yeah, Luminant or what the corporate marketing folks are calling themselves today).

But really no joke -- you may want to look at some colleges for part time gigs (full time sucks because you get pulled into admin). The kids are fun, and generally pretty good folks. There are worse things.

 

[Phil Timmons]

So anyone who disagrees with your “solar-gods” dogma is illiterate, right?

One eruption of a volcano, like the Mt St Helens volcano eruption in 1980, blackens the skies for weeks and we have no power in parts of the country. Lots of people die. Hope you’ll be up front with all your university degrees explaining why solar was the way to go.

You already won the game. ;P Doing super. Go USA #1! and such. ;P

But no, this is not about college this or that. It is about Critical Thinking Skills. A simple "is this or that TRUE?" Objective Measure, as it were.

btw, you are mixing up the Volcano FUD. The Volcano FUD is supposed to go something like this: Yunno CO2 from Volcanoes is FAR more than Humans could ever do! Truth on that one is typical annual MAX Volcanoes is about 1/100th of Human Fuel Sourced CO2.

Dunno, if you know this . . . but overcast tends to DROP power use. No Air Conditioning and such. But really Mt. Saint Helens was in May Around the lowest power use time-of-the-year.

But let's work on the Game? This one is my favorite. Really Super Bowl material >>

 

[Larry Caldwell]

I feel we need a mix of energy sources, as there is no one perfect one. I'm sure there is a balance of coal, oil, gas, wind, solar, nuculear, hydro that can provide energy for all. Where they are built is the hard part. Parking lots, rooftops for solar? Fossil fueled in an area where wind patterns favor populations? Reality is, there will always be a population opposed to each source of energy. Diversification is the best answer for me.
As far as the blinking red lights atop windmills, I have 15 or so on the western ridge about 1-2 miles as the crow flies, We are on east ridge. They don't bother me, and when I star gaze, I'm looking up more than out. And when I look out, the red lights add a little. Another set of windmills is more than 10 miles, as the crow flies. They don't bother me a bit.
I have visited family on Martha's Vineyard MA, and the windmills there would bug the hell out of me if I lived nearby, as there are no faraway places to build them on an island. Around here, there aren't people living close enough to hear that whoosh whoosh.
Remember, our future is very dependent on energy due to technology alone, with growing population adding as well. I've only heard of data centers and the amount of energy needed to power them, just not sure why. But that energy consumption will not change, only get worse. Impossible to get back to "the good old days".

I follow Mr. Global on Facebook. He is a partner in Sentinel Energy oil company, is a veteran of years in the oil industry, and contributor to Forbes. He thinks America is behind the energy 8-ball, and we don't have a shot. Be warned, he is NOT a fan of Donald Trump.

50K views · 36K reactions | Energy Crisis Coming #trump | Mr Global

Energy Crisis Coming #trump

www.facebook.com

 

[Hay Dude]

You already won the game. ;P Doing super. Go USA #1! and such. ;P

Move to Portugal. You’ll have a sweet echo chamber there where there’s no pushback and a monoculture of thought on energy. Just watch out for the national blackout when you’re driving through that what you thought was a green light. ;P ;P ;P (whatever ;P is supposed to be )
Just kiddin. Stay right here and keep the comedy coming. Even lunatics can spew 24/7/365. Go USA still has freedom of speech and such ;P ;P ;P

But no, this is not about college this or that. It is about Critical Thinking Skills. A simple "is this or that TRUE?" Objective Measure, as it were.

btw, you are mixing up the Volcano FUD. The Volcano FUD is supposed to go something like this: Yunno CO2 from Volcanoes is FAR more than Humans could ever do! Truth on that one is typical annual MAX Volcanoes is about 1/100th of Human Fuel Sourced CO2.

Dunno, if you know this . . . but overcast tends to DROP power use. No Air Conditioning and such.

What would it do if it was winter? No electric and 0 degrees and such? Might get a bit chilly?

But really Mt. Saint Helens was in May Around the lowest power use time-of-the-year.

But let's work on the Game? This one is my favorite. Really Super Bowl material >>

I don’t have a problem with renewables. I have a problem with the people who think its the answer for everything and should be funded by the taxpayer when it’s shown to be inferior to nukes or abundant NG

 

[Phil Timmons]

I follow Mr. Global on Facebook. He is a partner in Sentinel Energy oil company, is a veteran of years in the oil industry, and contributor to Forbes. He thinks America is behind the energy 8-ball, and we don't have a shot. Be warned, he is NOT a fan of Donald Trump.

50K views · 36K reactions | Energy Crisis Coming #trump | Mr Global

Energy Crisis Coming #trump

www.facebook.com

Yeah, he is not bad. But sort of clueless on some of his Electric Grid stuff.

He is good on Oil and Frack -- his real background -- but that stuff is starting to fade behind US.

If you look back at the Real History of US -- I am thinking US is more like a Sling-Shot. Right now US is getting stretched into the Super Dumb Morons Doldrums. Like that political guy you mentioned as the poster boy for the condition. When things snap back US will jump ahead. Happens over-and-over.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

My bet would be gas turbines, either for prime or backup power. They start at container size and go up.
E.g. Musk's allegedly permitless ones;

Musk's xAI data centre allegedly running illegal gas turbines - Capacity

New images of Elon Musk’s xAI data centre reveal a major expansion of on-site gas turbines, which campaigners claim violates environmental regulations.

capacityglobal.com

Or like these?

Making them container sized means easy transport, construction is just pouring a pad with hookups, with minimal crane work, and repairs can be done on, or off, site.

All the best, Peter

The question is, what do you run them with? All those gas turbines require gas wells and gas pipelines, and gas wells don't last long, so you have to drill more gas wells and bury more gas pipelines.

 

[Phil Timmons]

What would it do if it was winter? No electric and 0 degrees and such? Might get a bit chilly?

Dunno if you know this . . . most Heat is Natural Gas?

But Building Heat is a REALLY interesting thing to me. However it turns out Air Conditioning (Summer) is the BIG Electric Load in the US. You might want to check out the first 10 minutes (or maybe the whole thing) of this video. This guy is Fall-Down funny. His average show is better than my full-bore jackass routines. Serious good regarding building heating and cooling.

I don’t have a problem with renewables. I have a problem with the people who think its the answer for everything and should be funded by the taxpayer when it’s shown to be inferior to nukes.

You are still in the Last Century. In THIS Century, Solar PV is being intentionally blocked by 50% Punitive Tariffs, and Low-Cost EVs are being blocked by 100% Punitive Tariffs. (btw, BOTH by Biden, not Trump).

And ALL US Nukes were put on Federal Welfare a couple of years ago, just to keep from Bankrupting off-line early.

Here is 2026: New Nukes have become the: Most Expensive, Slowest, Long-term Dirty, and Highest Risk new generation, EVER. US Nukes all rely TOTALLY on .gov Welfare.

Also 2026: Solar PV has become the: Cheapest, Fastest, Cleanest, and Lowest Risk new generation, EVER. All while paying Punitive Taxes, with massive restrictions, and needs ZERO Welfare. Did you see the new Missouri Ban Plan? Trying to block Solar PV to save Coal.

 

[ponytug]

The question is, what do you run them with? All those gas turbines require gas wells and gas pipelines, and gas wells don't last long, so you have to drill more gas wells and bury more gas pipelines.

I'm not saying I'm a fan. I do wish that the data centers were being powered more by wind and solar, and some are, but that's just me. Even with prime power being renewables, data centers do have a rather intense need to keep the lights on 24x7xinfinity, so there needs to be months long backup plans at 100% operation, including HVAC. That's not a portable generator from the local box store or rental center.

My first data center install, I insisted on prime backup because of the 24x7 need, and got it with no small amount of effort. A year later, the company thought that I walked on water when the Enron rolling outages swept through and my company was literally the only one running. The company had to give up AC outside of the data center, but was able to keep the lights on, and people working at normal levels. Those outages shut down every other company in the area, and caused hundreds of millions of dollars in losses to those companies. Solid backup can be very valuable to some folks, and data centers are high in the list. A neighbor in the industrial park was a rather famous nuclear power company that had to shutdown completely, which was rather ironic...

I'm not blind to natural gas issues as a backup energy source, the Texas freeze out comes to mind, but it can be at least a (partial) solution for some folks.

All the best,

Peter

 

[MossRoad]

What was the outage cause? Is it power generation or transmission? Transmission outages occur with all generation sources. And an entire country outage indicates no redundancy in the grid. Bad planning.

2025 Iberian Peninsula blackout - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Final report isn't due until early 2026. Pretty intersting read. The 7 deaths were attributed to carbon monoxide poisoning due to people running generators in poorly ventilated areas.

Comparing that to the 2021 Texas power outage, caused by natural gas plant failures due to freezing, where somewhere between 250-700 people died directly or indirectly and lasting for for a couple weeks, the Iberian outage was about 8 hours with final restorations in 23 hours.

Interesting note... you could fit 7.3 Portugals in Texas. That state is huge!

 

[MossRoad]

.....

But let's work on the Game? This one is my favorite. Really Super Bowl material >>

 

[jyoutz]

2025 Iberian Peninsula blackout - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Final report isn't due until early 2026. Pretty intersting read. The 7 deaths were attributed to carbon monoxide poisoning due to people running generators in poorly ventilated areas.

Comparing that to the 2021 Texas power outage, caused by natural gas plant failures due to freezing, where somewhere between 250-700 people died directly or indirectly and lasting for for a couple weeks, the Iberian outage was about 8 hours with final restorations in 23 hours.

Interesting note... you could fit 7.3 Portugals in Texas. That state is huge!

And the Texas natural gas plant failures were due to poor design. They weren’t designed for cold weather, unlike most other plants in the U.S.

 

[rontaki]

Move to Portugal. You’ll have a sweet echo chamber there where there’s no pushback and a monoculture of thought on energy. Just watch out for the national blackout when you’re driving through that what you thought was a green light. ;P ;P ;P (whatever ;P is supposed to be )
Just kiddin. Stay right here and keep the comedy coming. Even lunatics can spew 24/7/365. Go USA still has freedom of speech and such ;P ;P ;P


What would it do if it was winter? No electric and 0 degrees and such? Might get a bit chilly?



I don’t have a problem with renewables. I have a problem with the people who think its the answer for everything and should be funded by the taxpayer when it’s shown to be inferior to nukes or abundant NG

He's just playing with his ;P;P

 

[Phil Timmons]

I'm not saying I'm a fan. I do wish that the data centers were being powered more by wind and solar, and some are, but that's just me. Even with prime power being renewables, data centers do have a rather intense need to keep the lights on 24x7xinfinity, so there needs to be months long backup plans at 100% operation, including HVAC. That's not a portable generator from the local box store or rental center.

My first data center install, I insisted on prime backup because of the 24x7 need, and got it with no small amount of effort. A year later, the company thought that I walked on water when the Enron rolling outages swept through and my company was literally the only one running. The company had to give up AC outside of the data center, but was able to keep the lights on, and people working at normal levels. Those outages shut down every other company in the area, and caused hundreds of millions of dollars in losses to those companies. Solid backup can be very valuable to some folks, and data centers are high in the list. A neighbor in the industrial park was a rather famous nuclear power company that had to shutdown completely, which was rather ironic...

I'm not blind to natural gas issues as a backup energy source, the Texas freeze out comes to mind, but it can be at least a (partial) solution for some folks.

All the best,

Peter

What do you think (still way early) of AI and DataCenters in the Sky?

Earth Orbit. I think Musk has started chatting that.

Full 24 hour Solar, no site problems, no cooling issues. Commo link straight back down to Earth.

 

[Phil Timmons]

He's just playing with his ;P;P

Just having fun because this stuff (durn-burned new fangle techNOlogy. No. Just say No.) gets some folks so goofy. It is like watching poop-throwing monkeys at the zoo.

It just gets so goofy, I cannot do sincere anymore. Just wore it out. ;P

If anyone really wants to learn what is really going on in these fields -- This guy does a much more polite, paced, and real-human level explanation of things . . .

 

[ponytug]

What do you think (still way early) of AI and DataCenters in the Sky?

Earth Orbit. I think Musk has started chatting that.

Full 24 hour Solar, no site problems, no cooling issues. Commo link straight back down to Earth.

I'm not a space qualified engineer, so take this FWIW:

Three issues come to mind for me: one, the legal status of a computer and its data in orbit would seem to be up for grabs. So one might have sovereignty and be able to serve or store data or information that might otherwise come under national authority. As a number of the folks proposing this have a strong tech first libertarian streak, .

Second, while solar panels yield more W/area in space, the logistics of heat dissipation (cooling) and service remain problematic, and will be more expensive than a terrestrial center. As an example the ISS has had numerous cooling issues and failures. Space is not a forgiving environment. Solar panels are very inexpensive on the ground, less so in space. Space is also just harder on electronics, and the extremely small transistor size of modern RAM and CPU/GPU/NPUs make them especially prone to radiation induced errors and damage, so chip failures would be "one and done" for CPU/GPU/NPUs, and require some slow down to patch around defective RAM chips.

Third, I don't get the cost benefit. Space systems, however inexpensive Starlink is to get to LEO, have an orbit delivered cost that is expensive, compared to a data center on earth, and more so as the data center designs have to be engineered to withstand vacuum, cooling, and higher radiation. Data centers on earth get located with some triangulation of energy cost, cooling cost, network access (speed, latency, and bandwidth), labor costs (to build, and to service/maintain), and site costs. I do not see how being in orbit is competitive.

So, yes, I feel as if I am missing something, or they are.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ning]

no cooling issues

... really?

a data center orbiting beyond Pluto would have cooling issues

It's really really hard to get rid of heat when you're entirely reliant on radiative cooling.

 

[Hay Dude]

Note that in his EV example of buying solar panels versus buying gasoline over the lifetime of a ICE, he neglected to include the cost of installation of the solar panels, a battery storage system for the energy, and an electrical hook up station from the battery to the car, which would probably triple or quadruple his estimated costs. Other than those large other expenditures, I agree with what he says ;P ;P