Thinking about Stick welding

[Groo]

I know MIG (somewhat) and have a good MIG set-up, but it has its limitations (mobility and running outdoors). I have been playing around with getting a Stick machine.

I hear DC is easier to work with and some things like hard surfacing need DC, so I guess I want a DC capable machine.

I started thinking the Lincoln Electric AC/DC 225/125 would be the one to get. While researching I found the Home Depot has it for $100 less than anyone else. I know HomeDepot often does cheapened up "specials" made in the HD China plants, but this has the same part number; K1297. Any idea why it would be so much cheaper than elsewhere? http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hard...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051

and then while at the HD site, I saw this little number; 200-Amp IGBT Inverter ARC Welder-STWD-S-200i at The Home Depot
I sure it is "Chinese junk", but for just over half the price of the super cheap Lincoln AC/DC tombstone that has a 100% duty cycle were the Lincoln is at its max in DC and has only 20%. They also both have the same 3 year warranty.

I understand the technology is quite different, but the little inverter one sure looks like the way to go. Any downside to an inverter welder? Would I ever miss the AC?

Then the other question is; should I just save up for an engine driven unit since I'd probably only be using this when and were using the big MIG isn't a viable option anyways. Maybe even just stick a welding alternator on the Kubota?

I'd like something like the Miller Dynasty 200DX for more versatility and TIG capabilities, but that pricepoint just isn't in the cards.

 

[Shield Arc]

If you're are going to do very much Tig work on heavy aluminum forget the Dynasty 200. My 300 is pretty much maxed out on 3/8-inch thick aluminum.
I'm all for engine drives, got 1 or 5 of them my self.
Look at Everlast, and Longevity before you make your decision.
No you won't miss AC on one of these little SMAW machines. With out a high frequency add on you will not be able to Tig weld aluminum anyway, but you can Tig weld steel ,and stainless steel, with a simple Tig rig.

 

[Groo]

Why does TIG need so many amps on aluminum? just the thermal conductivity of the metal?

I did start thinking Longevity and Everlast after making the post, but I am leaning more toward saving my pennies for an engine driven machine.

 

[Shield Arc]

Yup aluminum is one big heat sink.

My buddy has a Lincoln 305-G, very nice machine.

Or you could get a good generator, and a DC Inverter welding machine.

Ranger 305 G Engine Driven Welder (Kohler)

 

[dstig1]

TIG doesn't need a lot of amps on alum... ANY WELDING needs a lot of amps on alum. Alum is one of the best conductors of heat, so you need to pump lots of heat into it to get a puddle going, and maintain it.

 

[Shield Arc]

That's very true! Look at this Mig weld on 10-GA aluminum.

 

[Groo]

I think TIG is more base metal temp sensitive than other forms of welding though, just by the way it works.

 

[dstig1]

Geez CEP, yer just bragging now

Welding properly is about melting the base metal and the filler. If you can't get and maintain a puddle, you are not getting a good weld. That takes heat, and alum conducts it so well that you need to pump a lot of heat in quickly to get the puddle going and stable before the base metal sucks it all away.

 

[Groo]

I get that, but still; TIG is more like soldering in that the whole area hast to get hot first. MIG and stick heats the pinpoint location where the filler is introduced. Maybe in the real world there isn't much difference, but it strikes me that there would be some noticeable differences in heat required between the 2 types of operations, especially when "battling" a good thermal conductor. Maybe I am just not understanding the TIG process. I certainly wouldn't put that notion outside the realm of possibilities.

 

[Gary Fowler]

TIG is nothing like soldering. It pinpoints the heat much more so than stick but it still has to get the basemetal hot enought to melt in that pinpoint area. With aluminum the heat input is sucked away to adjoining molecules as fast as the TIG rig puts it into it so you have to really pump it in at first to get the puddle going. If you look at Shield Arc Mig, you will notice that when he first started welding(right side of photo) the toes or edges of the fillet are rather cold lapped. It didnt start flowing well till about the middle of the weld. Most times it is necessary to preheat with a torch to stop that from happening or have a thumb control amperage adjustment that you can crank it up to start then turn down after it get hot otherwise you end up with cold lap at first and blowout hole later from too much amps.

 

[Shield Arc]

In my limited knowledge of aluminum welding, or even welding in general, there is nothing like a foot pedal, or hand control for aluminum welding.
Here is an aluminum weld I made with my Dynasty 300, with foot pedal. And a picture of a hand control if someone doesn't know what they are.

 

[Gary Fowler]

No intent to criticize your welding SA, just to draw attention to the heat sink in the thin aluminum plate and how far you had to weld prior to getting the unit hot enough for good tie-ins with the MIG which is a major issue with MIG if you dont have equipment to preheat or dont heat it. I hate welding aluminum due to the fine line of too much preheat and it will fall apart like pot metal and not enough then you get cold lap especially with MIG. At least with TIG you can preheat with the TIG torch and go as slow as you need to to make it smooth whereas MIG is a go or stop so start temps have to be right so you really need a Laser temp gun to weld it right. I didnt have those years ago when I welded so it was either use a tempil stick which contaminated the weld area or just guess at it.
One thing I am envious of is your equipment but I dont envy the money you had to spent to get it. Hopefully one day you can get a business going to recoup some of your investment if that is in your plans.
I think if I had a shop like yours, I would look at doing small ASME certified pressure vessels that the large vessel shops dont mess with. If you could get an ISO certified qualitycontrol program established and get a "U" stamp you would be in business if you had some contacts in the industry that could throw a little work your way to get started. Another thing would be to fab small structural steel items like Instrument stands for construction jobs and 2" and below piping that the large shops wont touch unless forced to in order to get the large bore contract.

 

[yomax4]

The newer AC/DC tig units, Dynasty included have the option of cranking up the Hz. That causes a pin point arc that creates a much smaller heat effected zone. With this option you can weld thicker Aluminum than other similar rated machines that have no Hz adjustment. I have a full featured 200 AC/DC that does a nice job on 1/4". Other new technology out there is High Definition Twin Pulse Mig for Aluminum, Steel,Stainless and SIB. You get Tig looking Welds at Mig Speeds all possition and any one can do it. You can actually pull the gun back or push it in and the welder compensates for it. Coolest thing out there right now. Select the thickness you are working with and the machine sets the rest. It alows you to set Pulse Width, Current Change, Relationship and Pulse Frequency to customize your welds. Completely synergic. You can easily weld 1/16" Aluminum with 3/64 wire.

 

[Ken45101]

I know MIG (somewhat) and have a good MIG set-up, but it has its limitations (mobility and running outdoors). I have been playing around with getting a Stick machine.

You can run flux core wire outside with MIG without gas so I don't see the differences in that way. Likewise portability, the Lincoln AC/DC requires 230 volts too.

I'm not saying there aren't advantages to stick, just pointing out that MIG can be used but you probably know that.

Thanks for pointing out the HD price! That is strange that they are over $100 cheaper that Lowe's.

Ken

 

[Groo]

You can run flux core wire outside with MIG without gas so I don't see the differences in that way. Likewise portability, the Lincoln AC/DC requires 230 volts too.

I'm not saying there aren't advantages to stick, just pointing out that MIG can be used but you probably know that.

Thanks for pointing out the HD price! That is strange that they are over $100 cheaper that Lowe's.

Ken

Its not that they are just cheaper than Lowes, they are cheaper than anywhere I can find on-line. I wonder if maybe HD didn't sign up for a long term contract before the price of copper skyrocketed.
I have access to a crappy generator that has a 220v output. Hauling around the tombstone would be much easier than my over 200lbs MIG machine (and that is without the tank). A little inverter machines would be easier to move yet.

My limited experience with self shielding flux core wire did not impress, and yes I knew then it would take more stick-out, but it seamed like there was nothing I could do to get a good weld out of it. Maybe I should try it again with my better MIG set-up, but like I said; it does not lend itself to portability.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I get that, but still; TIG is more like soldering in that the whole area hast to get hot first. MIG and stick heats the pinpoint location where the filler is introduced. Maybe in the real world there isn't much difference, but it strikes me that there would be some noticeable differences in heat required between the 2 types of operations, especially when "battling" a good thermal conductor. Maybe I am just not understanding the TIG process. I certainly wouldn't put that notion outside the realm of possibilities.

TIG is nothing like soldering. It pinpoints the heat much more so than stick but it still has to get the basemetal hot enought to melt in that pinpoint area. With aluminum the heat input is sucked away to adjoining molecules as fast as the TIG rig puts it into it so you have to really pump it in at first to get the puddle going. If you look at Shield Arc Mig, you will notice that when he first started welding(right side of photo) the toes or edges of the fillet are rather cold lapped. It didnt start flowing well till about the middle of the weld. Most times it is necessary to preheat with a torch to stop that from happening or have a thumb control amperage adjustment that you can crank it up to start then turn down after it get hot otherwise you end up with cold lap at first and blowout hole later from too much amps.

TIG is a lot more like soldering than stick arc. Sure, the metal has to melt [key to welding], but TIG adds heat much more slowly/softly. Adding heat intensly and fast enuf to melt and weld a small local area quicker than the heat would conduct away would be difficult without vaporizing the Aluminum. Also, the huge local expansion of Al would be a problem. Steel does not present these issues to such degree.
larry

 

[catskinner]

I bought the Stickmate 250 and I so far its impressed me.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I dont see that either process is like soldering at all. The only similarity is that your have a heat source in one hand and filler metal in the other but the technique is totally different. Soldering/Brazing doesnt fuse the base metal and the filler wire into one homogenous mixture, whereas TIG and stick and even oxyacetylene welding do. TIG is more similar to OA welding but using an electric arc for heat which can be better controlled to a specific area and heat input. The metallurgy is similar and the strength is equal or better than base metal with a welding process whereaas most solder joints are much weaker than basemetal and the filler flows thru capillary attraction or thru wetting action similar to a glue rather than elemental bonding like welding.

 

[greasemonkeyok]

If you are thinking about getting into stick welding and only have experience with mig wire feed, for less that double the price would the Miller Thunderbolt® XL 225/150 AC/DC be a better choice? More specifically, will it compensate more for lack of operator experience?

 

[weldermike]

Geez CEP, yer just bragging now

Welding properly is about melting the base metal and the filler. If you can't get and maintain a puddle, you are not getting a good weld. That takes heat, and alum conducts it so well that you need to pump a lot of heat in quickly to get the puddle going and stable before the base metal sucks it all away.

Who is CEP?