Surveyor mistake - a big one

JN4310 · Jul 25, 2008

I have a house and guest house on a 5 1/2 acre lot. We, and my next door neighbor both built our houses about 8 years ago. I started first, and had a local survey company stake the 660' common property line between our lots. He and I installed an underground electric conduit and transformer right on the property line to service both of our homes. I then built my guest house about 55 feet away (we have a 50 foot side set back, and 150' from the street). I installed an above ground septic system next to the guest house, which was still about 15-20 feet from the property line. I then build my main house 40' further onto the lot from the guest house.

Now, eight years later, I just received a letter from the surveyor saying they mis-staked the property line. The end of the property line is actually about 200' (!) further into what I thought was my property. This moves the property line right through the septic system, and within several feet of my guest house. What is worse, in my mind, is that much of what I thought was my back yard is someone else's and we have lost a great deal of privacy. Vegitation and a wetland provided some natural privacy along the 'original' property line. Because of the different angle, I would never have sited my homes the way they are since the backyard area where I want to install a pool now faces the neighbors land. The surveyor said in the letter he wants to just apply for a variance to cover his mistake. That seems like a totally unacceptable solution to me. I don't want people in 'my' backyard. The area in question is a triangle about 660' on the base side x 175' or 200', or about 1 to 1.5 acres. If I were to purchase any of this area, it would drop my neighbors lot below 5 acres, which is the zoning minimum.

Anyone know how to move two concrete block homes about 50 feet? Any other ideas?

Wayne County Hose · Jul 25, 2008

I have 3 suggestions for you.

1. Contact a lawyer
2. Contact a lawyer
3. Contact a lawyer

If you have any questions about my 3 suggestions, contact a lawyer. Don't discuss with your neighbor, friend, relative, not even your mother. Go see your lawyer.

JN4310 · Jul 25, 2008

I understand, but I really, really don't like most lawyers...I do have a call in to our HOA lawyer, whom the surveyor said he is contacting to get the variance started. It's Friday, and I haven't heard back yet...

John

EddieWalker · Jul 25, 2008

My parents had a similar situation with a neighbor who they are pretty sure moved the survey stakes to give them more room to build a patio onto the back of their home. While looking for the stakes based on known corners and distances, it looked like they had build on my parents lot. They hired a surveror to find the corners and mark the line, which proved they had built on my parents land.

They went to the title company first, who did nothing. Lots of shrugging and passing the buck. This patio and encroachment was done onto the land before they bought the place and the title company was paid insurance to make sure it was right. After hiring a lawyer and threatening the title company, they got with the neighbor and worked out a land swap that worked out good for everyone.

Since the surveyor screwed this up so badly, and you have already built your home, you should hire a lawyer to figure out what your rights are. Insurance comanies, title companies and counties all have a way of not caring what your problem is, no matter what you've paid them in the past. It's a huge headache and unless you get somebody that can create an even larger headache for them, they just don't care.

The surveyor should be bonded with that state and have insurance for just this reason. They all screw up from time to time and in order to be licensed, they have to have these things in case something like this happens. Again, a good lawyer should know this already.

I'm not a fan of lawyers, but sometimes the only choice is to hire somebody who knows about these things.

Good luck,
Eddie

Wayne County Hose · Jul 25, 2008

JN4310 said:
I understand, but I really, really don't like most lawyers...I do have a call in to our HOA lawyer, whom the surveyor said he is contacting to get the variance started. It's Friday, and I haven't heard back yet...

John

John,

Nobody likes lawyers, until they need one. Do not, I repeat, do not go to the same lawyer that the surveyor is, even if it's your own lawyer. A variance isn't going to solve this, there are many other issues here. I would bet that a good lawyer would have this surveyed by a different surveyor just to see where everything stands. This guy is trying to cover his but. How did he know 8 years later that the survey is off? There is something very fishy here. You should not speak to this surveyor, your neighbor, or anybody else until you speak to a lawyer.

Think about this, let's say you paid $50,000 for 5 acres. Now, because mr. surveyor can't read a tape measure, you only have 4 acres. Mr. surveyor owes you $10,000.

JN4310 · Jul 25, 2008

I only called our HOA lawyer to let her know I would be opposed to a variance, and if I get a vote, I wouldn't want her doing any work to support it.

The surveyor was asked to resurvey the neighbors lot since he is selling, and the new buyer (whom I haven't met) or the bank required it.

Eddie, that's a shame about your parents. I've seen other posts that show how big of a hassle these things can turn in to, even when that's the last thing anyone wants. I don't really have the time right now to spend on this.

I wouldn't mind if they paid to tear down the guest house and built a new one elsewhere on my property (how's that for being neighborly), I'm actually more concerned about having my side lot line now running on an angle through my back yard.

John

plowking · Jul 25, 2008

I had a abutter do a lot line adjustment on adjoining land,so I received a letter. It had to be adjusted to allow room for three houses. A adjustment is different then a variance. plowking

JN4310 · Jul 25, 2008

plowking,

Does a lot line adjustment mean someone has to give up some land? I don't think my new neighbor would want to have a smaller lot just because a surveyor made a mistake. The houses are in the first third of the lot (from the street), so move the lot line over 40 or 50 feet would have a huge impact on his property, even if I compensated him with more land in the back. The back of both our lots are basically unusable due to a large wetland that spans both properties.

I'm new to this type of issue, but I really can't figure out a good resolution, short of tearing my homes down and rebuilding them 50 feet away. I also didn't move out to the country to live on a zero lot line property, or have a neighbors fence run thru the middle of 'my' back yard. I really need some good suggestions.

John

milkman · Jul 25, 2008

JN4310 said:
I really need some good suggestions. John

You've already had seveal.....GET A LAWYER, that's the best suggestion..

BobRip · Jul 25, 2008

John, we are not lawyers, so don't expect us to resolve your problem. This type of problem can only be solved by getting a lawyer. Don't let your hate ruin your future. You will really regret it down the road.
I don't like lawyers either, but the main reason is that they are regulated by other lawyers. This is a severe conflict of interest but it will not change.
Don't late this hate ruin your life. I wish you the best in dealing with this problem. But please, get a lawyer.

JN4310 · Jul 25, 2008

Bob,

Wow, I didn't mean for any of this to come across as hate. I don't hate anyone, especially in this situation. I feel bad for the surveyor, he has admitted he has a big mess on his hands. I was hoping to apply a little creative thinking to the process before this thing ended up in the hands of the lawyers.

My reluctance about lawyers is really directed at the entire civil legal system. I live in Florida and was sued several years ago by an ex-customer who had no basis and admitted he looked for years to find a lawyer to even take his case. He sued me in Californa, so we had to go out there for the trial. The attorney I engaged said no big deal, it won't be a long case. When it started, he showed that the plaintiff had no legal standing, but the judge said, Oh well, we're all here, let's have a trial. He and other attorney spent a week milking it and trying to get me to settle, and the judge just let it go on. My attorney was actually in two cases at the same time, and yet billed me for 100% of his time. In the end, I got a 48 vote to 0 verdict (four counts) and ended up with a $75,000 bill from a $25,000 estimate. My attorney spent the next year making my life miserable. The whole process was like watching sausage being made...

However, I am not carrying that over to this, I just wondered if anyone had seen a similar situation of a surveyor missing a mark by 200' before. It really distorts a 5 acre lot. I would really like to resolve this while there is still a smile on my face...

John

CurlyDave · Jul 25, 2008

However, I am not carrying that over to this, I just wondered if anyone had seen a similar situation of a surveyor missing a mark by 200' before. It really distorts a 5 acre lot. I would really like to resolve this while there is still a smile on my face...

The surveyor should have "errors and omissions" insurance. A lawyer will know this and will be able to force them to pony up enough money so that everyone will come out sort of satisfied.

If you go into this without a lawyer you will end up with the short & dirty end of the stick.

The answer to you previous question of "how do you move two concrete block homes...?" is simple. You get a lawyer to force they surveyor's insurance company to pay for tearing them down, restoring the land under them to its original condition, and rebuilding them.

If you try to deal with this yourself you will get the endless run-around.

BTW, make copies of that letter where the surveyor admits to making the mistake and stash them in several places. Your lawyer will have a field day with that letter.

dqdave1 · Jul 26, 2008

You stated the neighbor is selling; that started this. Have thw surveyor buy your neighbors property and give it to you. All is good then. You have 10 acres for the price of 5. Probably the cheap solution in this case.

ultrarunner · Jul 26, 2008

dqdave1 said:
You stated the neighbor is selling; that started this. Have thw surveyor buy your neighbors property and give it to you. All is good then. You have 10 acres for the price of 5. Probably the cheap solution in this case.

Similar thing happened after the Oakland Hills Firestorm Destroyed 3000 homes...

The city went in to establish monuments and incorrectly identified a major point causing an entire area of 30 plus homes to be built 17 feet from the true boundary.

The city ended up buying several of the parcels and redoing all the affected deeds to make everyone whole. No one lost any property and a few even where given a few feet from the city land that was consumed making everyone whole.

Bottom line... it definitely is something that can only be settled in a legal setting... I second the idea of buying the neighbors acre to make you whole.

ray66v · Jul 26, 2008

Survey and boundary mistakes can often be caught by simply taking the legal description, (the drawing with all the measurements), of your new property and checking it against any survey stakes or assumed boundaries to see that they match before building, or planting anything.

I once had a neighbor move in a few doors down, when I lived near the city. He had "Big Trees" come and plant a good sized tree at what he though was the back of his property. Later in the day I went over with another neighbor, while the new neighbor was admiring the new tree. We said nice tree, why didn't you plant it in your yard? He had made the assumption that this was part of his yard based on the fact that his neighbors had grass, and gardens going back to this point. They were all encroaching on the farm land behind them! A few minutes with a tape measure upon purchase of the property, would have been a good idea.

The tree was cut down a few years later, by the owners of a new home built behind him. They wanted a pool, right where he had planted the tree.

schmism · Jul 26, 2008

JN4310 said:
The surveyor said in the letter he wants to just apply for a variance to cover his mistake.

first dont assume he made such an egregious mistake.

step one would have it surveyed a second time by a second surveyor. Ask to meet with the orginal surveyor and have him explane how he F'd it up so bad. I suggest you bring along your second surveyor so that if he starts tossing out technical terms the other guy can call BS when he has to. (or at least will let you know when the meeting is over)

After its verified that it is actually incorrect, the thing he is asking for is not quite a variance. (did he use that word or did you?)

Generally if the agreed upon line some 8 years ago is acceptable to both common parties, you can just file a quit clame deed saying you agree to the new line (a 0$ land transfer) draw a line in the sand, i dont claim your half, you dont claim mine, everyone is happy.

Generally lawers fee's for sorting it out, addtional survey's to sort it out, fees to record new deeds etc should all be paid by the surveyor that made the mistake and his insurance.

TedLaRue · Jul 26, 2008

JN4310,

You seem to be pretty sensible about things, which I admire. But when considering what you'll settle for, consider that someday you or your heirs might be trying to sell your place. Don't settle for less than what you think those buyers would be happy with.

schmism · Jul 26, 2008

ray66v said:
Survey and boundary mistakes can often be caught by simply taking the legal description, (the drawing with all the measurements), of your new property and checking it against any survey stakes or assumed boundaries to see that they match before building, or planting anything.
.

that doesnt always work. Boundries writen by lawers often dont close because they lack the techincal expertise to properly lay it out. Or a discription of "owns the northwest corner of the northwest quadrant of the 4th district etc) is by rule, a _____ tract of land (50 acers or something) a boundry is then writen up later that specifies angles, distances. 1) that discrption doesnt close, and 2) comes up with 48.5 acers.

Most people can not walk a 375.45' line heading 34.589 degees westing and expect that your buildings are were they are supposed to be.

his (incorrect) deed could have been writen up to close, useing the wrong starting cords. so you could walk the perfect boundry as recoreded and assumed your buildings were well inside it. only problem is, it was off

KPark · Jul 26, 2008

1st, Survey again by a reputable surveyor. This will let you know just how bad things are and how they could have made such a HUGE error.
2nd, you can buy the mis-judged piece from the neighbor. I know that would put them under the minimum 5 acres, but they can "borrow" the land from you to make zoning requirement (you promise not to build dwelling on said land *sheds and such don't count* so that the borrower can have proper acreage. Borrower has no rights to said land, just the zoning requirement for dwellings).
3rd, if you want justice, you'll have to do the lawyer thing. The borrowing thing for zoning purposes seems like a pretty good bet without ruffling feathers.

WayneB · Jul 26, 2008

Living in a small town and being a member of our ZBA I have seen cases like this many times. Normally it is a situation where someone in the past has built within the setbacks. Most of these cases are situations that happened before zoning and it is not a problem.

Other cases are when someone wants to sell a piece of property and there is a question about a building being within the setbacks. This requires a variance and if it was an honest mistake and it will not cause harm to other abutters or property values in the immediate area we will most likely vote to give the variance. Although there has been one case that we denied a variance because the homeowner had gone ahead and built a structure that went beyond the scope of his building permit. In that case he was forced to take down the addition he had added to the structure.

With your situation I wonder:

1. How the neighbor feels about this?
2. Have you spoken to the surveyor and if so what does he recommend to resolve the issue?
3. Have you opened the door and spoken to your town building inspector and zoning board of adjustment (ZBA).

If we had something like this in our town I am sure we would have a ZBA meeting and if there were no abutters that filed a complaint then we would most likely pass a variance due to the timeframe that the buildings have been standing. The setbacks would be determined at the time the buildings were constructed and not present day setbacks.