Stick on a TIG machine

[joshuabardwell]

Since stick and TIG are both CV (Edit: CC) processes, many (most? all?) TIG welders also say they support stick. But is there typically a difference in arc quality between a dedicated stick welder and a TIG welder that also does stick? I know one potential difference is that some stick welders specifically are designed to run 6010, but other than that...

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

No, they are Constant Current process. TIG typically runs at a lower voltage than stick...say 18 volts at 200 amps...where stick will run up to 28 on average. 6010 needs more voltage to run smoothly , 27-30 at say 200 amps. Many TIGs will put out enough extra voltage in stick mode to run 7018, but input limits the output and many makers want to keep TIG machines putting out maximum power for the minimum input. You can't get more power out of the unit than you put in in volts and amps. (watts= VxA), so a company wanting to sell a unit that is primarily a TIG, would be mostly interested in putting out a TIG at the lowest power consumption level possible. Having to put out 12 to 14 extra volts for the same amperage with 6010, increases power demand greatly.

 

[joshuabardwell]

No, they are Constant Current process.

I'm sorry. I knew that, but I flubbed. I've corrected it.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Thanks for the detailed answer (as usual) Mark. On the flip-side, if we look at a unit like the PA 160 STH, does that mean that stick welder that has been adapted to also do TIG is going to inherently run at less efficiency than a unit that is intended to run TIG? Will it be able to easily step down to TIG voltage, or will it still tend to run at the same voltage, which is higher than optimal for TIG?

When folks talk about a welder's ability to run 6010, are they implicitly including 6011, or is it only 6010 that is difficult for some welders to run well?

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Thanks for the detailed answer (as usual) Mark. On the flip-side, if we look at a unit like the PA 160 STH, does that mean that stick welder that has been adapted to also do TIG is going to inherently run at less efficiency than a unit that is intended to run TIG? Will it be able to easily step down to TIG voltage, or will it still tend to run at the same voltage, which is higher than optimal for TIG?

When folks talk about a welder's ability to run 6010, are they implicitly including 6011, or is it only 6010 that is difficult for some welders to run well?

The 160 sth was not adapted to do tig. It was a complete new unit designed with both. The 140ST, though great for both is primarily a stick machine, but anyone who has one and tried it can tell you it is far from sub-par on its tig qualities. It's easier to make a stick run tig. Inverters can be made more easily to fit the demands of both. It doesn't have anything to do with efficiency.

When people talk about cellulosic rods or cellulose rods, they are referring to both. But when they talk about 6010, no self respecting welder would include both under 6010. Each is a fine rod unto its own, even though they are very similar. Both can be difficult to run. 6010 is harder to run than 6011 without a doubt though. Most people cut their teeth in welding with a 6011. It's a fine rod, but doesn't have quite the penetration of the 6010 and in comparison far smoother. A 6010 is like being around a spoiled rich kid with a temper. If you are the Super nanney, you can handle it. If you are the baby sitter, well, you better stick with the 6011 which is the better behaved child of average means parents.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Thanks, Mark. It looks like the bottom line is that any TIG will run stick and any stick will run TIG, but there are wide variations in the facility with which each will do both, and the designer's intent is paramount. This does leave the consumer in a tricky spot, since marketers will put as many claims as possible on a given unit's list, regardless of the designer's intent. Glad you're here to give the inside scoop on the Everlast line.

I like your "super nanny" analogy for 6010. I have said that 6011 is like a high-end sports-car. If you know what you're doing, you will make it dance the jig, but if you don't, you'll be off the track at the first corner. By comparison, some other rods are dead simple to run, but much less versatile.

 

[Shield Arc]

So Mark will a guy see a better 6010 arc on a DC only SMAW / GTAW machine? My Dynasty 300 is the best Tig machine I have ever run, does fine with 7018, but is horrible with 6010, even though it has the dig option. My old 1980s Miller 330 A/BP transformer machine was one of the best 7018 running machines I ever used, it was OK with 6010 but nothing special. As you know both the Dynasty and 330 A/BP are AC / DC machine. I haven't tried Tig welding with my V350-Pro yet, mainly because I didn't buy a foot pedal with it, and I would have to use my Tig rig also. So I'm just wondering if a DC only machine will make a difference?

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

So Mark will a guy see a better 6010 arc on a DC only SMAW / GTAW machine? My Dynasty 300 is the best Tig machine I have ever run, does fine with 7018, but is horrible with 6010, even though it has the dig option. My old 1980s Miller 330 A/BP transformer machine was one of the best 7018 running machines I ever used, it was OK with 6010 but nothing special. As you know both the Dynasty and 330 A/BP are AC / DC machine. I haven't tried Tig welding with my V350-Pro yet, mainly because I didn't buy a foot pedal with it, and I would have to use my Tig rig also. So I'm just wondering if a DC only machine will make a difference?

I don't think it has anything to do with the AC. But rather the engineers, and how they design the arc, and what they are targeting, in the way of the market, and typical use patterns I suspect. I'm no engineer, so going much beyond my technical knowledge is a dangerous thing...The AC part of the unit is a separate part. Part of it on an inverter or any transformer machine is how it converts to DC with the rectifier and if its a full wave or half wave bridge along with the size/type/number of capacitors used and transformer design itself. Ours use full wave bridge as far as I know which enable a higher output voltage as well as a smoother DC current, which then can be used to make a better DC arc and make it ready for 6010 capability.

 

[sdkubota]

I have a Lincoln Tig welder and use it for stick off and on with excellent results.

 

[Shield Arc]

OK Mark, for the money my Everlast PA-200 has the best arc I have seen with 6010, and 7018, and also has a very nice arc for GTAW with a Tig rig! I think we'll both agree it is not in the same league as my V-350-Pro? But the V350-Pro was over $5,000.00! So let me ask you this, which of your SMAW / GTAW machines has the same beautiful arc with 6010, and 7018 as my PA-200, but also comes with a foot pedal, and high frequency start?

 

[joshuabardwell]

So let me ask you this, which of your SMAW / GTAW machines has the same beautiful arc with 6010, and 7018 as my PA-200, but also comes with a foot pedal, and high frequency start?

That is truly the $64,000 question. I hope the answer is the PA-160 STH, because all of Everlast's other pedal-capable machines are in a bit higher price bracket.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

We're working on our PowerTigs for late 2013 to have the same performance. Right now the newest edition of the 160sth is pretty close. They have worked on it for improved 6010 capability...though I haven't tried it out yet, so I can't personally vouch for it.

But the PA 300 outside of the TIG requirement has the same, if not better performance on 6010 than the 200. We've got a new version of the PA 200 in an ST version on the way though which has improved 6010 performance, and 110V performance even with 6010 (but with a 35% duty cycle, which is a bittersweet tradeoff) which will be the best built PA to date...

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

I have forgotten about a couple of things....the new digital units do have the capability...with adjustable hot start and arc force control. The current I tig 200 is an excellent all around DC pulse tig/stick unit, at a great price, but isn't up to 6010. We've got a new digital i tig on the way that should be good with it (I hope).

 

[joshuabardwell]

Everybody seems to focus on a stick welder's ability to run 6010 as a benchmark of its quality. As a n00b welder, I don't think I really have an appreciation for the significance of that. I know that pipe-fitters' bread and butter is 6010, but for more general fabrication work, is that the kind of thing I should really care about? Or will I go my whole life running 6011 and 7018 and never miss a beat?

Comparing the I-TIG 200 to the PA-160 STH, it seems like the main difference is the enhanced TIG parameters: pulse, upslope, downslope, etc... On the stick side, it seems that the I-TIG has adjustable arc force, while the PA-160 has arc force, but it's not user-adjustable. Is that all correct?

 

[Shield Arc]

the PA 300 outside of the TIG requirement has the same, if not better performance on 6010 than the 200.

Yeah, story of my life! If I would have waited until you guys came out with the PA-300 I wouldn't have spent $5,000.00 on the V350-Pro.
I have to giggle when people say these small inverters can't run 6010. My PA-200 runs 6010 every bit as nice as either one of my SA-200 short hoods. Now I'm no 6010 hand, but I don't think this is to bad for a small inverter. This is a 6010 weld I made when I first got my PA-200.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Everybody seems to focus on a stick welder's ability to run 6010 as a benchmark of its quality. As a n00b welder, I don't think I really have an appreciation for the significance of that. I know that pipe-fitters' bread and butter is 6010, but for more general fabrication work, is that the kind of thing I should really care about? Or will I go my whole life running 6011 and 7018 and never miss a beat?

Comparing the I-TIG 200 to the PA-160 STH, it seems like the main difference is the enhanced TIG parameters: pulse, upslope, downslope, etc... On the stick side, it seems that the I-TIG has adjustable arc force, while the PA-160 has arc force, but it's not user-adjustable. Is that all correct?

Joshua, you are essentially right. Though the PA 160sth has a little more slant to 110 performance, as it does do a little better on 110 than the i tig...not much but a little more amps.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Yeah, story of my life! If I would have waited until you guys came out with the PA-300 I wouldn't have spent $5,000.00 on the V350-Pro.
I have to giggle when people say these small inverters can't run 6010. My PA-200 runs 6010 every bit as nice as either one of my SA-200 short hoods. Now I'm no 6010 hand, but I don't think this is to bad for a small inverter. This is a 6010 weld I made when I first got my PA-200.

The 300 can adjusted with the hot start so much so that no self respecting rod would dare to stick, in fear of immediate disciplinary action. lol.

 

[Shield Arc]

I'll tell you, who ever invented adjustable hot start, and arc force is my hero!:thumbsup:
The hot start on my V350-Pro is so hot I can't go past 7.0. For tacking open root I have to have it down to about 5.0, or I'll blow holes.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Yeah, story of my life! If I would have waited until you guys came out with the PA-300 I wouldn't have spent $5,000.00 on the V350-Pro.

If it makes you feel better, you can probably sell the V350, buy a PA-300, and have a few bills left over.

 

[CNC Dan]

Since stick and TIG are both CV (Edit: CC) processes, many (most? all?) TIG welders also say they support stick. But is there typically a difference in arc quality between a dedicated stick welder and a TIG welder that also does stick? I know one potential difference is that some stick welders specifically are designed to run 6010, but other than that...

Look for a welder manual that shows the volt/amp charts.
While called a constant current machine, the current can vary somewhat as the arc length changes.
And thats a good thing. The dig or arc force controls can be used to change how much the current can vary.

On a tig machine, you want a very flat volt/amp curve. So if you had a machine made for tig only (or an inverter in tig mode) you might find stick welding difficult. A long arc would have almost as much current ad a short arc.

On older non electronic tig and stick machines, the way the transformer core is made and the placement of the windings determine the volt/amp curves.