Starting a Stove Fire

/ Starting a Stove Fire
  • Thread Starter
#181  
Please elaborate on the emissions? I thought there was no difference, only in scale of time.

It's just nice to have a warm roaring fire over the weekend from your days work. Very close, cause and effect relationship.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #183  
Well a local fast food buys eqqs by the case and the 12 x 12 egg trays make for a great fire starter.
One egg tray, 6-7 split dry kindling (cedar or pine) and one match and I have a good fire started.
Add 3 (always 3) split hardwood 'logs' and sit back with favorite beverage.
About 1 hr later add more 'logs' and refill my beverage.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire
  • Thread Starter
#184  
It's dark now, nasty cold and windy out and I have a great glowing pile of embers in the little stove. As my Dad would say, "I wouldn't want to be sleeping in a tent tonight".
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #185  
I do not burn anything that has not been under cover after being split for 2 years. I do find that if I let it go 3 or 4 years it burns too fast for my liking. I prefer wood in the 17 to 19 % moisture range. Below 14 % burns very well, but catches me by surprise and the fire burns out before I get to reloading. Nothing at all wrong with it, just burns faster.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #186  
Please elaborate on the emissions? I thought there was no difference, only in scale of time.

It's just nice to have a warm roaring fire over the weekend from your days work. Very close, cause and effect relationship.

Sorry for sounding so scolding, btw.

But the emissions output is very different. The total CARBON emissions will be the same. But the other nasty stuff: VOCs, particulates, hydrocarbons, etc are way worse with a wet, cold burning fire. Which, btw, might also be contributing to the smokey outdoor conditions you mentioned. A cold, smoky chimney output is more likely to fall towards the ground. A hot burning fire of properly dried wood turns clear coming out the chimney, with very little visible smoke, and rises better into the atmosphere.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #188  
But the emissions output is very different. The total CARBON emissions will be the same. But the other nasty stuff: VOCs, particulates, hydrocarbons, etc are way worse with a wet, cold burning fire. Which, btw, might also be contributing to the smokey outdoor conditions you mentioned. A cold, smoky chimney output is more likely to fall towards the ground. A hot burning fire of properly dried wood turns clear coming out the chimney, with very little visible smoke, and rises better into the atmosphere.

Precisely. Burn the stove hot so there's no smoke, put only enough wood in it to heat the stove up thoroughly, then let the fire coast down to embers until the stove temp drops and it's not putting out the heat you need. Then repeat. That'll save you a lot of wood, as most of the heat ends up going up the chimney with a wood stove.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #189  
Precisely. Burn the stove hot so there's no smoke, put only enough wood in it to heat the stove up thoroughly, then let the fire coast down to embers until the stove temp drops and it's not putting out the heat you need. Then repeat. That'll save you a lot of wood, as most of the heat ends up going up the chimney with a wood stove.

Hmmm....interesting....we got any thermodynamic / mechanical experts here?
Does it matter if stove is steel vs soapstone, etc...?
Obviously if your generating more energy than can be transferred, extra goes up chimney.
How energy gets transferred gets complicated. Draft, burn rates, material's thermal conductance, relative temperatures, how fast does room lose heat, time, etc.. are factors. My head hurts thinking about it.

Related to this, I think the hotter the fire/smoke is, the farther away its temperature is from the condensing point of creosote when it goes up a cool chimney...and the less cool the chimney will be trying to get it to condense. (Doesn't the smoke itself have less creosote in it if the fire burns hotter? That is, doesn't the creosote tar get burnt (converted to something else) with a hot fire?)

I've seen a "wood gasification" boiler that burned the gases so hot and so much heat was the extracted that the exhaust pipe was barely above room temperature and the inside of the exhaust pipe was clean as a whistle....so I'm guessing creosote DOES get burned if the fire is hot enough.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #190  
My stove is steel, and even a small burn will get it pretty hot. I regularly see 700F on the little dial type thermometer I stuck to the lower top step on the stove, and I think that's the hottest Quadrafire recommends. Not much point in trying to get it any hotter than that, but I suppose you could put more wood in to keep it at that temperature longer if you needed the heat due to thermal losses in the home. This house is pretty well insulated and tight, so one burn in either the morning or the evening is enough to keep it in the 68F - 77F range for 24 hours when the temps outside are in the 40s. If it gets colder than that, I'll burn every 12 hours.

Anyway, stoves with large thermal mass, like those made with soapstone, or the ones with large masonry surrounds, have huge thermal masses that will hold lots of heat. Some even have labyrinth like passages to increase the heat transfer into the masonry. So they take a long time to heat up, and a long time to cool off. There's probably thermal modelling software out there somewhere on the net that could give insights on just the right temperature profile in the stove that would be most most efficient way to heat the stove and its surroundings, but like you, the whole thing kinda makes my head spin.

Creosote wise, the flue here is 6" triple wall stainless steel, about 17' high, and it goes straight up from the stove. I clean it after every heating season, and I've never seen any creosote or ash in the pipe, and none drops into the stove when I'm brushing. Year before last there was a small buildup of creosote at the very top end of the pipe that was so small I didn't bother to try to remove it. When I did the clean out last fall, it was gone, probably because I made a point of burning a little hotter in the stove. So I'd agree with you, that the hotter the stove gas, the cleaner the smoke, and the less likely there's creosote in it. And that would also heat up the flue pipe and prevent condensation of any creosote that might be there as well.:2cents:
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #191  
On stove fires.

My neighbor had a serious chimney fire that rendered his house a total loss mainly due to smoke damage.
His comment was the wood was all nice and dry! but it contained all sorts of resins.
Long and short is sweep your chimney annually and or learn as to how to burn off the creosotes that clog your flue.

In my case I learned how to create high heat to rid the creosote as it accumulated. Guess it might be called controlled burn off.
Old timers taught me well! (listen to your elders!)
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #192  
Mine is a weird home brew set up. I configured the stack in a curly que arrangement to retain as much heat as possible and distribute it to the room. More surface area, more radiation, less waste. The bottom 3-4 feet get real hot (sometimes 300 degrees or more) while the top foot or so stays relatively cool (150 or less) according the the IR Temp Gun. I can open the pipe inside the house to clean it out and inspect. When I did that last week, there was almost no ash, maybe a cup or three. No other buildup of any kind since it gets so hot. The way it works out, the pipe itself acts as a firebreak and it's virtually impossible for flame to get far enough up the pipe to get to that top foot or so where I sometimes find black cake type buildup.

Hard to explain really and too ugly for pictures, but it does keep the house warm with very little risk..
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #193  
Years ago I was renting an old farmhouse which had a metalbestos chimney from the first floor through the attic to the roof. My fire hadn't been burning well for a few days so one night I opened the stove up and let it go. A while later a game warden knocked on my door... "Do you know that you have a chimney fire? I will call the fire department if you want." I asked him to hold on a minute; grabbed a fire extinguisher and shot it into the firebox. "POOF", and the fire was out. But the house was toasty warm, and I never had a problem getting a fire going after that. Since then I clean my chimney at least twice per winter.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire
  • Thread Starter
#194  
So what makes one chimney fire good and another bad?
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire
  • Thread Starter
#196  
I don't understand. I thought guys were just saying it can clean out your chimney. I have a stone chimney and the fireplace has a 1/4" SS 6 x 12 or something flue. What's gonna happen there?

And my stove has a small, maybe 5" flexible SS liner that is all I could get inside the original clay tile.

And since I changed my roof from Cedar to Steel, I don't worry about that either.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #197  
I don't understand. I thought guys were just saying it can clean out your chimney. I have a stone chimney and the fireplace has a 1/4" SS 6 x 12 or something flue. What's gonna happen there?

And my stove has a small, maybe 5" flexible SS liner that is all I could get inside the original clay tile.

And since I changed my roof from Cedar to Steel, I don't worry about that either.

You probably are OK with the stainless liner but why take a chance? A chimney fire can get pretty hot, and even with the liner it can compromise the chimney. My brother had a house with a concrete block chimney and clay liner, but when they tore the chimney down they found that the previous owner had a chimney fire which did some structural damage in the walls.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #198  
The problem with a chimney fire is that creosote burns a lot hotter than the temperature of normal smoke. If you have a large build up of creosote in your chimney and it starts on fire there is a good chance that the chimney won't be able to insulate the surrounding wood from the high temperatures. Wood will spontaneously combust at high temperatures. When that happens you have a fire in your house. Not a good thing.

If you regularly burn a hotter fire in your stove the elevated temperatures in the chimney will remove the built up creosote in a safe manner. If the creosote is never allowed to build up you will not have a chimney fire. That's why you check your wood stove chimney regularly for creosote. When I was burning wood I checked once a year. There was never more than a light layer of creosote.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire #199  
I have witnessed a creosote fire in a metalbestos chimney. The burning creosote was so hot it sounded like a blow torch and caused the pipe to fail and caught the chimney chase on fire.

I have seen single wall stove pipe cherry red at the top that also caught the roof on fire. Chimney fires can be deadly.
 
/ Starting a Stove Fire
  • Thread Starter
#200  
I have to watch my shop chimney. It was second hand metalbestos and I still have a cedar roof on that building.
 
 
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