Starting a Cold Deisel ??

[Gordon Gould]

I have a small Dresser Dozer with a 4 cylinder IH or Cummins D240N motor (not sure when they changed over). It has no glow plugs and I have not had it long enough to know its cold weather quirks. It is the first deisel I have had w/o glow plugs.

In the summer it starts in 2 or 3 seconds. This morning was about 20*F and it had been setting over a week. It was the first time I tried starting it below 40*F. It turned good but I had to try 5 or 6 times before it started. I was reluctant to let it crank for more than 5 seconds or so each time. After the first try it sounded like a flooded gas engine that turned easy and wanted to start but just wouldn't catch. Finally it did.
I had the throttle almost full.

I would like to know if this is normal and/or is there something I could have done differently to make it start easier. I am running the same fuel/stanadyne mix I run in my tractor. It is parked in the woods and it would be a hassle if I ran the batteries down ( It has two in parallel ) trying to start it.

Thanks in advance for any advise

gg

 

[Jerry/MT]

I have a small Dresser Dozer with a 4 cylinder IH or Cummins D240N motor (not sure when they changed over). It has no glow plugs and I have not had it long enough to know its cold weather quirks. It is the first deisel I have had w/o glow plugs.

In the summer it starts in 2 or 3 seconds. This morning was about 20*F and it had been setting over a week. It was the first time I tried starting it below 40*F. It turned good but I had to try 5 or 6 times before it started. I was reluctant to let it crank for more than 5 seconds or so each time. After the first try it sounded like a flooded gas engine that turned easy and wanted to start but just wouldn't catch. Finally it did.
I had the throttle almost full.

I would like to know if this is normal and/or is there something I could have done differently to make it start easier. I am running the same fuel/stanadyne mix I run in my tractor. It is parked in the woods and it would be a hassle if I ran the batteries down ( It has two in parallel ) trying to start it.

Thanks in advance for any advise

gg

Some engines are hard starters and others aren't. I'm presuming your engine is in reasonable mechanical condition, i.e good compression and properly adjusted valves. If the valves are leaking or the compression is low it will be a hard starter. The diesel is a great engine for tractors, both wheeled and tracked but cold weather operation is it's Achilles heel. They are hard to start without starting aids and the fuel is easily contaminated by condensation and if the temperatures are low enough and fuel untreated or not blended for cold operation, frozen filter or gelled fuel can prevent it from operating. I would use half throttle to start unless the owner's manual says different. Do you see white exhaust (unburned fuel) coming from the exhaust stack when you attempt a cold start? If you don't there may be a problem with initial fuel delivery.

In general, indirect injection diesels need glow plugs for a starting aid and direct injection engines use manifold heat or block heaters to help cold weather starting. There are exceptions.

Does it have any other cold starting aids? Is there are intake manifold heater (Thermostart, or an electric heater like a glow plug)?

A block heater is the best way to help with cold weather starting but if the nachine is parked off in the woods, unless there is a current bush handy(grin), that doesn' t help. Battery warmers can help get full output from the battery but again they take an electrical supply.There 's always starting fluid but that's hard on rings if not used correctly.

Some things that may help is to go to a lighter weight lube oil durring winter and bringing the batteries in at night, fully charging them and keeping them warm so they can provide maximum current to the starter. The lighter weight oil will require less starter torque to turn the engine over and since battery output is reduced by lower temperatures, a warm battery will provide more starter current.
It goes without saying that your fuel system must deliver fuel to the injectors so having clean fuel uncontaminated by water and blended for the temperature conditions that you operate in is also a must. I recommend that fuel filters be changed before the cold weather hits, the fuel tank always be kept full to reduce water condensation and the fuel be a winter blend or treated with both water susupension and gell prevention additives it it's a summer blend fuel in a partially full tank.

I hope you find this info helpful.

 

[dodge man]

Does it have a heating grid instead of glow plugs? The Cummins in my pick up doesn'thave glow plugs but what they call a heating grid instead. I have a hard believing it doesn't have some kind of preheat system.

 

[Gordon Gould]

Thank you very much for taking time for the detailed info. I am just learning about this machine and it helps a lot. I stuck my answers to your questions in down below, Hope it works.

gg

Some engines are hard starters and others aren't.

I guess I am trying to get a read from you guys whether you would call what I described as a hard starter. Should I have let it crank longer than 5 seconds at a time when it sounded like it wanted to go ?

I'm presuming your engine is in reasonable mechanical condition, i.e good compression and properly adjusted valves.

To be honest I don't really know. But the rest of the machine is in good condition and it sounds good and has run well for the little I have used it

If the valves are leaking or the compression is low it will be a hard starter. The diesel is a great engine for tractors, both wheeled and tracked but cold weather operation is it's Achilles heel. They are hard to start without starting aids and the fuel is easily contaminated by condensation and if the temperatures are low enough and fuel untreated or not lended for cold operation, frozen filter or gelled fuel can prevent it from operating. I would use half throttle to start unless the owner's manual says different.

The manual says use full throttle below 50*F, But I have never gone more than half until this morning, I tryed full because it was much colder.

Do you see white exhaust (unburned fuel) coming from the exhaust stack when you attempt a cold start? If you don't there may be a problem with initial fuel delivery.

I didn't know enough to look up at the stack. Next time I will definately do that

In general, indirect injection diesels need glow plugs for a starting aid and direct injection engines use manifold heat or block heaters to help cold weather starting. There are exceptions.

I have no idea what injection method is used

Does it have any other cold starting aids? Is there are intake manifold heater (Thermostart, or an electric heater like a glow plug)?

No heaters of any kind, It does have a solenoid operated ether injector. The manual says use below 32*F only. I do not have a canister for it. The weather has just started to be consistantly colder. I wanted to try w/o ether. I will see about a canister now for sure.

A block heater is the best way to help with cold weather starting but if the nachine is parked off in the woods, unless there is a current bush handy(grin), We have those but they are the low voltage variety that doesn' t help. Battery warmers can help get full output from the battery but again they take an electrical supply.There 's always starting fluid but that's hard on rings if not used correctly.

Some things that may help is to go to a lighter weight lube oil durring winter and bringing the batteries in at night, fully charging them and keeping them warm so they can provide maximum current to the starter. The lighter weight oil will require less starter torque to turn the engine over and since battery output is reduced by lower temperatures, a warm battery will provide more starter current.

I am running 10W30 engine oil

It goes without saying that your fuel system must deliver fuel to the injectors so having clean fuel uncontaminated by water and blended for the temperature conditions that you operate in is also a must. I recommend that fuel filters be changed before the cold weather hits, the fuel tank always be kept full to reduce water condensation and the fuel be a winter blend or treated with both water susupension and gell prevention additives it it's a summer blend fuel in a partially full tank.

I flushed the fuel tank (it was clean) and replaced all the filters before I started operating it in August. I also use Stanadyne with the fuel. Tank is not full though. I should do that

I hope you find this info helpful.

Very

 

[nspec]

I never start ANY engine at anything above idle speed. Opening the throttle all the way is dumping more and more fuel into the engine. It's not starting because its not warm enough to ignite the fuel/air mix. More fuel isn't the answer. Ideally, you should crank it for ten seconds or so with the fuel OFF, then open the fuel and crank normally. This builds the heat of compression without the excess fuel. We do this with the old detroits all the time and it helps a lot. Also, when that engine does fire off, wide open throttle is putting so much unnecessary wear on a cold - unlubricated engine. Idle speed starts will most definitely prolong the life of your engine.

 

[DAY]

My "Yella Fella" has no glow plugs, heaters, or anything, but it starts right up with a 2 second shot of ether into the air cleaner when the temperature is cold. If you can't get a canister, you can buy a can at TSC for a couple of bucks.

 

[Gordon Gould]

I never start ANY engine at anything above idle speed. Opening the throttle all the way is dumping more and more fuel into the engine. It's not starting because its not warm enough to ignite the fuel/air mix. More fuel isn't the answer. Ideally, you should crank it for ten seconds or so with the fuel OFF, then open the fuel and crank normally. This builds the heat of compression without the excess fuel. We do this with the old detroits all the time and it helps a lot. Also, when that engine does fire off, wide open throttle is putting so much unnecessary wear on a cold - unlubricated engine. Idle speed starts will most definitely prolong the life of your engine.

What you say makes sense. I will try it. I was just doing what the book said :confused3:

 

[big bubba]

probably already know, but beware of using ether. newer diesels do not recommend, and you can blow the head/ or rod bearing using this method. kubota does not recommend, though i did cheat years back on my hard starting massey 35...
just use sparingly!

 

[Gary Fowler]

Some of the older engines were designed with ether injection systems. Get your canister installed and use that with the recommended 2 second spray. If you get to much ether in the engine it is going to lock up on you but you will be able to start turning again in a few seconds. I had a 9000 Ford tractor that had the canister with push button delivery and when it needed a boost on cold mornings, I started cranking then pushed the button for a couple of seconds and it fired up everytime.
My old Yanmar has nothing for cold starting and when I needed to start it, I would pull the cover off the air filter and run wife's electric hair dryer on hot into the air intake to preheat the air. It started great with that, but you do need to be close to electricity. I suppose a propane torch would work also, just dont set fire to your air filter.

 

[nspec]

I can remember my uncle building a fire under the old d-8!! Gotta watch for oil leaks, and keep it small. Go eat breakfast, come back and try again!

 

[Gordon Gould]

I can remember my uncle building a fire under the old d-8!! Gotta watch for oil leaks, and keep it small. Go eat breakfast, come back and try again!

Yup, I've heard those stories and I am sure it is still being done. My problem is if I get a fire going out in the woods I like to sit near it and don't feel like working anymore.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Thank you very much for taking time for the detailed info. I am just learning about this machine and it helps a lot. I stuck my answers to your questions in down below, Hope it works.

gg



Very

I should have mentioned using the starter for 10-15 seconds.

 

[MHarryE]

There is definitely a difference in diesel engines so there is no standard answer that covers all. We produced a combine model that was a hard starter at anything under 40F, so ether was standard. It was thermostatically controlled so the ether would inject when coolant was below 40F and would inject a specific spray volume only while the engine was cranking. Also I have been involved with several different diesels where we needed high idle for cold starts. We stated in the book that the operator should throttle back to low idle as soon as the engine started and began running even (all cylinders firing). Not unusual at all to have rough running on a cold start, firing and turning over for a few seconds and dying. My Kubota tractor will start in 20 - 30 degree weather without using the preheat but it runs rough at start so I use the preheat at anything below 40. My Cat mini-excavator, however, needs glow plugs at anything under 70. In that way it is the hardest starting diesel I have ever run but after heating the glow plugs for 10 seconds this morning at 27 degrees, it fired right off and ran smoothly.

 

[RaydaKub]

If the tractor has glow plugs, don't use the ether. It will ignite from the glow plugs which is not what you want. Also, use ether sparingly. I didn't know better when I was a kid and used too much. Blew the top of the muffler off. :laughing: Fortunately, that's all that happened.

 

[D7E]

Starting the D7 in -20c

 

[CharlieS]

WD40 works almost as well as either without the inherent danger of engine damage. In moderately cold temps its effective and provides a little cylinder lube at the same time.

 

[California]

WD40 works almost as well as either without the inherent danger of engine damage. In moderately cold temps its effective and provides a little cylinder lube at the same time.

I read that the WD40 formula changed a few years ago, and the present version no longer has the volatility to help starting.

 

[Gordon Gould]

Thank you all for the good input. I did not run it today. It was a warmer morning anyway. My plan is to get the ether injection system running but I need to figure out what kind of canister I need. I don't think it is one of those screw in cylinders.

Starting the D7 in -20c

Maybe I should make a sled I can pull with a snow machine or my tractor that I can put a portable generator, heater, and charger on. Just to be ready.

 

[JoeL4330]

yep, with no glow plugs or intake manifold heater, ether is your cold weather friend ...make sure your fuel is winterized (as it normally would be in your area... if you bought it in the winter) I would add an anti-gel/cetane raiser (like power service in the white bottle) to the fuel.

As for oil, I would make sure I used synthetic and you can go lower than 10W30 ...say, 5W40 in a synthetic or 0-something or other (but be sure you changed the oil in the spring.

Old time Maine-iacs allegedly drained the oil into a pot, built a fire, warmed the oil and their coffee, and poured the oil back in. If you have electricity, I would keep a batteryminder on the battery (and/or heating blanket) and a droplight under a (non-flammable) blanket over the engine will help surprisingly well ...If you have electricity and a "torpedo" heater, you can take the cold soak out of an engine, when you are ready to start. And, speaking of cold soak, starting first thing in the morning is a lot harder than past mid-day, depending on the solar gain where your machine is parked.

If no electricity, you might consider taking the battery inside with you and putting the trickle-charger on it.

As for how long you can/should crank, it's a function of the duty cycle of your starter ...certainly less than 60 seconds at a time, with time to cool down in between cranks ...but don't be too conservative: the combustion ignition of a diesel works better the longer your crank (within limits as stated above).

And, all else failing, if it's going to be well below zero (-10 and below) overnight and you are going to need your machine in the early AM, you can simply let it run ...machines in the arctic run all winter (check coolant, fuel and oil) so that they never cold-soak (and, if they do, it's time to tow it into a heated structure or wait till spring.)

 

[eray1066]

I worked in the mountains of Colorado in the 1970's. Starting the Allis Chalmers tracked bucket loader was a time consuming task. First we hooked up jumper cables to get the battery ready. After 15-20 minutes we would throw a rag over the intake and hit it with ether. If it did not catch before the battery was too tired to go on, it was repeated in 1/2 hour. Not too productive.