Spray foam didn't stick

[Osu98]

I'm obviously new here, but I have been reading these forums for quite a while and have learned a lot.

I recently had closed cell spray foam applied to my shop and the first 400 sq ft he applied did not stick to the wall. I can peel it off with my bare hands and the metal is clean as a whistle. The morning he applied it was about 15 degrees outside but we setup heaters and it warmed up nicely. The installer is blaming it on condensation forming on the metal but I think if that were the case it would have been very obvious and he should have stopped. Everything seems fine after the first 400 sq ft. I left before he got to that point so I don't know if he messed with the mix.

I think he had a problem with the mix of chemicals. Any thoughts? I know the spray foam that comes out of a can sticks to anything and everything immediately.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I'm obviously new here, but I have been reading these forums for quite a while and have learned a lot.

I recently had closed cell spray foam applied to my shop and the first 400 sq ft he applied did not stick to the wall. I can peel it off with my bare hands and the metal is clean as a whistle. The morning he applied it was about 15 degrees outside but we setup heaters and it warmed up nicely. The installer is blaming it on condensation forming on the metal but I think if that were the case it would have been very obvious and he should have stopped. Everything seems fine after the first 400 sq ft. I left before he got to that point so I don't know if he messed with the mix.

I think he had a problem with the mix of chemicals. Any thoughts? I know the spray foam that comes out of a can sticks to anything and everything immediately.

Could be a lot of factors. That said 15 seems low to install spray foam. Will he not come back and make it right?

Also, was the sun hitting this one wall differently?

Chris

 

[kneedeep]

He should come back and fix it regardless of the reason. IF weather was a issue, as the contractor, he should have waited until it warmed up.
Any time you put artificial heat on metal, it will sweat.
The area that's sticking- was it done with or without the heat on it?

 

[chim]

Found this on a spray foam site:

"The surface onto which the foam is sprayed needs to be within the manufacturers´ specified range. An important note here is that we're talking about the substrate surface temperature, not the ambient air temperature. Most spray foam manufacturers spec a surface temperature range between 60°F and 80°F."


It could be that the insulation did its job and the metal walls were way too cold as soon as the foam was sprayed on, since they were being heated from the inside.

 

[STx]

I learned the hard way with my spray foam that if it's not the right temp, there will be problems. 15* is too cold but if both the inside of the building and the chemicals were heated, you could get away with it. I did mine when it was about 30* and had to put the cans in a small room with a heater to warm the chemical and then warm the room. I had to wipe condensation off the metal as I went and do a small section at a time, constantly drying things off. The first batch I sprayed came out pretty bad and I ended up removing a lot of it. The 2nd time, after reading the instructions, it came out perfect but it definitely required a fair bit of work in keeping things dry.

Condensation sounds like a reasonable explanation for your problem but he's the pro and should have dealt with that as he went. I would expect him to come back and make it right on his dime.

 

[tcartwri]

Did the foam even rise at that temperature? I'm assuming we're taking Fahrenheit here.....

 

[SPIKER]

Yep: temp was way too low, there are some versions made to work in lower temps but are more expensive. Closed cell foam also has to be HEATED under most conditions to get the foam to work right, upwards of 90f range to have it expand fast and dry hard/stick well. That is part of reason lots of insulators want to talk you out of closed cell foam, as many dont have proper heating equipment.

m

 

[Osu98]

Thanks for the ideas. I think it was too cold. I remember putting my hand on the tin on the south side and it was warm. The north was still cold and that is where he started. I'm pretty sure he had a heater in the trailer to warm the chemical. The foam expanded like it was supposed to just did not stick to the metal. They are coming back on Monday to fix it, I'm just disappointed to spend that amount of money and have this kind of results. I planned on spending this long weekend getting it painted, wired and shelves built. Now that all has to wait.

 

[deerseeker001]

Welcome from Wisconsin

 

[EddieWalker]

What did he charge you for the foam and how thick are you going? I'm looking to do my shop roof and I'm curious about pricing.

Eddie

 

[Osu98]

What did he charge you for the foam and how thick are you going? I'm looking to do my shop roof and I'm curious about pricing.

Eddie

1" closed cell. I think it was $1.30/sq ft. I received prices from three different companies and they were all basically the same. My barn is 30x40x12 with a 10x20 lean to and it was $3900. One side is basically all overhead doors.

 

[Coyote machine]

1" !? That's not enough to stop the dew point from passing through- drawing warm air to the outside. You need at least 2" minimum of closed cell. Application failed due to their applying the foam to a too cold surface.

Touch-n-foam, Touch-n-Foam insulating sealants - energy savings foam insulation - spray foam insulation and other self applied closed spray foam is readily available to the consumer now for many applications. I just did a bathroom reno for under $1000, and it went perfectly. The price of the foam is cheaper now than it was due to demand AND better product, keeping in mind proper application. Without the right conditions you have nothing.
Some locations require a flame retardant to be applied over the foam.

 

[boggen]

have learned lesson with "closed cell" spray foam. if you spray it, when things are to cold. the trapped air/chemicals, come summer.. will expand a huge amount. resulting in very ugly foam, siding coming off, lumber pushed out, etc... it can become a ticking time bomb! it blew out one basement window on me... i had it sprayed in the cold winter... and then cut excess off, after i thought it cured. come spring.. it expanded 3" and completely shattered and blew out a window, sending some still wet spray foam all over the room.

cold air = condenses (gets smaller)
warm air = expands (gets larger)

i am sure there is different chemicals, and heating stuff requirements for putting it on, in the cold. but... if you can wait till spring when things warm up. so much better long term results of the spray foam.

i would be iffy, putting closed cell spray foam in at winter. even just for a temp job. trying to do a metal barn/shed. were surface itself is cold.... your asking for a thin layer build up right at the metal, to not really expand. until it comes spring/summer when things warm up. and that could cause the metal siding to expand out / pop the nails that are holding the siding on. if you have walls / ceiling covered, it may push the stuff away from the walls/ceiling inside as well.

--------------
i am by no means a pro here, just personal experiences of falling flat on my face learning. of DIY projects here on the farm. and i would most likely shy away from installers wanting to do stuff in the winter, and trying to push there luck onto you. and trying to make some cash for themselves.

 

[Osu98]

Every contractor I talked to recommended 1" and have been doing it for years without problems. Our warehouse at work is 1" and I know a lot of farmers who have the same without any problems. Something I don't think some of you are taking into account is the building is located in Oklahoma. Not Canada. We have been in the 60's every day for the last week, and yesterday it was 75 degrees. I put up my Christmas lights in shorts and a T shirt.

 

[IXLR8]

Location does matter for thickness. There are a dozen reasons, but moisture (condensation) is the number one reason spray foam will not stick, surface needs to be DRY.

 

[MotorSeven]

On my Quonset we had some adhesion problems not due to temp or moisture. Later on I found out that the metal arches are coated with some kind of light oil to prevent corrosion before being stacked on the pallet(the pallet weights 6,000 lbs) before shipping. I would have de-greased/pressure washed the metal and let it dry before the spray foam if I had known.

 

[Osu98]

Update. After 3 tries I think we are good to go. He came back and tried again but of course it was 15 degrees again and surprise it didn't stick again except the small area where the heater was blowing on the wall. The third time it was warmer and we put enough heaters in there it got up to 80 degrees. I think a lot of the problem was the product and the hose that delivers it was not warm enough.

This has by far been the worst experience I have ever had with a contractor. A couple of young kids who acted like they were going out of their way to fix a problem they created. A true professional should know when it is too cold to apply foam. That is part of what I was paying them for.

After spending almost $500 on paint, lowes had some 3/4 T&G OSB on sale for $4.50/sheet. Wish I wouldn't have painted it all now, but covering with the OSB anyway.

 

[forgeblast]

I bought a kit from Foam it Green Spray Foam Insulation Kits it was easy to use came in two lp grill tank sized containers.

 

[roadhunter]

Did the foam even rise at that temperature? I'm assuming we're taking Fahrenheit here.....

Foam spray rigs have heaters that warm the mix as it is sprayed.

 

[CAT97]

When I was a young man my father used to spray foam insulation in the ice holds of commerical fishing vessels and I worked for him with this stuff for a couple of
years. We would spray foam with boats either in or out of water it didn't matter, but what did matter was 2 factors. One the surface HAD to be dry and free of dust,
and TWO it would NOT stick to a slick surface. To remedy number one we would put a fan on the steel hull and vacume off the dust because we would usually
sandblast the steel hull to not only remove scale but also roughn the surface. If you have a slick surface you might have to sand it with a scrubby pad prior to
application, and make sure surface is dry and clean. Some of the metal buildings have a thin oily surface that must be removed. Just my 2 cents worth.