Skidding winch - need bigger tractor?

[LD1]

Definatally more sand is required

I understand how it works now. It is also similar to a hydraulic chutch found in many manual tranny cars.

Not many cars today have the old style clutches which require the mechanical advantage of the levers of the clutch pedal. They have instead a master cylinder hooked up to the pedal (similar to the brakes) and a slave cylinder which operates the clutck fork and throwout bearing (similar to the calipers in the break system). The advantage is the clutchs can be a lot stiffer to hold better and require a lot less pedal effort.

But the piston in an auto tranny is an excellent reference. It it is indeed like that with several clutches and steels, they can hold a tremendous amount of power and not slip. Maybe something was faulty from the factory?? I know when it comes to rebuilding trannys, there are close tolerences on clutchpack end clearence. If too much, it won't hold, if too little, they'll overheat and wear out in no time. It is typically adjusted with thicher/thinner steels and/or thicker/thinner snaprings at the end of the pack. My main background is actuall in automotive and I have no complaints about what you stated about automatic transmissions. You hit the nail on the head. So no beating comming tonight...yet

I also disagree with the the post about the shaft being rigidly coupled to the engine. I believe it does go through the main clutch as well. Otherwise, why would you need to press the clutch pedal to engage the PTO. Unless it is some sort of a push button PTO and the clutch is indeed not required. Do you need to press the pedal to engage??

 

[dstig1]

Unless it is some sort of a push button PTO and the clutch is indeed not required. Do you need to press the pedal to engage??

Nope. Just pull the PTO lever. That opens a valve that sends hydraulic pressure to the PTO clutch pack piston, engaging the clutch.

 

[EE_Bota]

Definatally more sand is required

I understand how it works now. It is also similar to a hydraulic chutch found in many manual tranny cars.

Not many cars today have the old style clutches which require the mechanical advantage of the levers of the clutch pedal. They have instead a master cylinder hooked up to the pedal (similar to the brakes) and a slave cylinder which operates the clutck fork and throwout bearing (similar to the calipers in the break system). The advantage is the clutchs can be a lot stiffer to hold better and require a lot less pedal effort.

I thought that the only advantage of a hydraulic clutch in a manual transmission car was that it was self-adjusting. I was not aware of an improvement in the mechanical advantage.

 

[EE_Bota]

No, it is nothing like a planetary gear.

I agree. I think a PTO clutch pack is similar to the clutch pack that is used to control planetary gear sets.

The PTO is a simple wet clutch pack. The clutch is actuated hydraulically by a piston, when you move the lever, which in turn moves a valve directing oil to the clutch pack piston. This connects the input side of the clutch to the output that drive the PTO shaft.

Well, that's the plan, anyway. So where did we go wrong?

Wherever the relief valve is, it is well hidden. I went out and looked over the tractor and there is nothing to adjust, and no relief valve that I could find. It looked exactly like the parts diagram...

On mine, it is a plug, a spring, and a ball. Look at 100, 110, 120, and 130. Your tractor is different, but perhaps your plug, were you to have one, would look similar.

 

[dstig1]

EE, Thanks. That's exactly the type of thing I have been looking for. Found nothing....

Need to call in the dealers now, methinks.

 

[rbargeron]

Dave, I finally got a look at a L3130 parts list. Take a look at the two "flywheel" pages. The non-HST type has independent pto and has a constantly running shaft splined into the center of the flywheel, unaffected by the main clutch. My L3600 (gear) had independent pto too and had the same constantly running shaft off the engine. But your L3130 with HST drives the pto downstream of the main clutch. Your pto actually has two clutches in series - the main dry plate clutch and the hydraulic one. I usually sign off with this: Prompt cheerful refund if info is bogus. The hydraulic clutch pack part is true but the independent pto with constant-running shaft off the flywheel is bogus for HST machines.

Based on two clutches in series, either could be slipping - but the question remains whether that's bad or not. If it's the main, that shouldn't be happening. The pto clutch can slip a long time without damage. Only you can say if it's not really loading the engine. If it gives up too soon it should be investigated.

 

[dstig1]

rbargeron, I appreciate the follow up, but looking at Manual, GST and HST diagrams, shows me minor variations on the same thing: everything goes through the main clutch. The only shaft that passes through the clutch bell housing, other than the clutch output shaft, is the front wheel drive shaft (at the very bottom). There are no other openings in there for a shaft, PTO or otherwise, that I can see that could access the flywheel. If you are right, I sure can't see it, FWIW.
:confused3:

And yes, otherwise you are seeing what I am - the main clutch and PTO clutch are in series, as far as the PTO goes.

On a lighter note, it scares me how much I have learned about the 3130 parts diagram in the past 24 hrs...

Dave

Edit: Looking it over more, I'm quite convinced that everything goes through the main clutch, for all trannys. Not that it helps fix my issue...if I even have one...

 

[rbargeron]

...... There are no other openings in there for a shaft, PTO or otherwise, that I can see that could access the flywheel.....

If our lists are the same version, page 77 shows the independent pto shaft & gear, part 100, that runs inside part 10. On page 12 part 40 is the splined coupling bolted thru the flywheel into the crank.

All academic, since it isn't used with the HST model. Take care, Dick

 

[dstig1]

If our lists are the same version, page 77 shows the independent pto shaft & gear, part 100, that runs inside part 10. On page 12 part 40 is the splined coupling bolted thru the flywheel into the crank.

All academic, since it isn't used with the HST model. Take care, Dick

Dick, Yes we appear to have the same PLs. I guess I am having to make a couple assumptions working only from the PL - mainly that the PTO shaft 100 is splined into the gear shaft 10, and doesn't go fully through it to the clutch disc. Gear shaft 10 appears to be the output shaft of the clutch assy/input of the tranny(s). I believe the gear shaft 10 fits into the spline 40 from page 12, and not 100. Otherwise how could both 100 and 10 both spline into the same spline adapter (40)? Only one can, since the one goes inside the other.

I'm not sure there is a way to tell conclusively from the PL alone. I need a shop manual!

Moot, perhaps, but interesting...Thanks!

-Dave

 

[rbargeron]

.....I guess I am having to make a couple assumptions working only from the PL ..........I need a shop manual!.....

Kubota WSMs have cross section drawings that show all this stuff. You'll find that part 10 is splined into the main clutch disk. Part 100 extends though part 10 into the flywheel coupling 40 on p12. If part 10 connected to the crank the main clutch wouldn't do anything.

I agree the parts lists don't tell the story too well - it helps if you already know the story from other sources and use the parts lists to help confirm it.

BTW, I'm on some pain killers and acting a bit off these days - my wife saw me typing away after 1am last night - I said there was a tractor guy on the other end. She said "wonder what kind of drugs he's taking". :thumbsup: As Lindsay Lohan would say - rehab is for quitters. Take care, Dick B

 

[therdriele]

I'm reluctant to get into this but. . .a couple of comments here, going back to the original question of tractor size and skidding winches.

I have a L4610HSTC with a Farmi winch (I believe it's an older equivalent of the 510 or something like that--it isnt in front of me-- but designed for the 40-60hp range CatI/II) and have been skidding with this setup for many years, all kinds of stuff including large hardwood logs. I regularly skid whole trees (topped) in the 40-50 foot range and 24-30" or more at the butt, and saw logs (oak, maple, etc) up to 12-15' that are 36" or sometimes larger at the butt.

First of all, I've never stalled the PTO or the tractor engine with this winch; I have lifted, dragged and nearly rolled the tractor though. Operating correctly, the Farmi winch I have (and I believe the others too) will slip if something hangs, and by this I mean that the spool stops turning although the PTO shaft and tractor engine continue running, even with the clutch rope pulled all the way out. This is as it should be, otherwise you're going to flop the tractor over when the log you cant see on the far end of the cable snags on a stump as you are skidding it out of the woods.

On the issue of winches and tractor size, I think the bigger limiting factor than winch capacity is tractor weight in terms of skidding (or winching) larger trees or loads safely. I can easily pull a very large log out of the woods, and up to the tractor, that I can't safely skid (often, can't even lift once it was choked up to the Farmi); that's not to say I havent dragged a few home that I couldnt get off the ground. But my point is that in the 30-40 HP tractor range, your winch capacity--even with your antique Farmi winch--is probably going to exceed your safe skidding capacity. You will be able to get logs TO the tractor that you SHOULD think twice about dragging unless your land is very flat and you're going in a very straight line which is not typical for logging. To move these sized logs with a lighter tractor, you will need to drop the load every time you come to a corner or hill, then spool out cable and drive the tractor to the next safe spot, plant yourself again, winch the log around the corner or up the hill and back up to the skid plate, lift it and go again. With a small tractor you'll be doing this constantly; tedious, but possible to be safe if you're patient.


So . . .my advice is that if you are planning to move lots of logs, most of them large, get a larger tractor. If you're going to move occasional logs and can cut them down when they are beyond your equipment's capacity, and dont mind taking a bit longer to do the job, consider buying a newer Farmi winch (or adjusting the one you have if this is possible so it doesnt stall the tractor or tip it over if your log snags).

- Dave in Vermont

 

[rbargeron]

I'm reluctant to get into this but. . .a couple of comments here, going back to the original question of tractor size and skidding winches............ Dave in Vermont

Pearls of wisdom Dave and beautifully written. Glad you overcame your reluctance - we're all better off for it. The discussion had gotten off in the technical weeds - you restored the focus on what matters about logging and what keeps loggers (and tractors) alive. Great job.

p.s.
Below are some pics from 2004 that show what can happen to a L4610 if your good advice is not followed - in this case traveling uneven terrain with hitch choked up short. Luckily only the owner's tractor and checkbook were injured.

 

[dstig1]

I'm reluctant to get into this but. . .a couple of comments here, going back to the original question of tractor size and skidding winches.

You shouldn't be reluctant - it's an internet forum...that's what they're for. And I appreciate you taking the time to comment.

I have a L4610HSTC with a Farmi winch ...

First of all, I've never stalled the PTO or the tractor engine with this winch; I have lifted, dragged and nearly rolled the tractor though.

You see - this is an important piece of info. Once again I am hearing that stalling the PTO is not typical...

Operating correctly, the Farmi winch I have (and I believe the others too) will slip if something hangs, and by this I mean that the spool stops turning although the PTO shaft and tractor engine continue running, even with the clutch rope pulled all the way out. This is as it should be, otherwise you're going to flop the tractor over when the log you cant see on the far end of the cable snags on a stump as you are skidding it out of the woods.

We adjusted the clutch as at first it was not pulling. I'm not sure if the original design intent was as you say. I suspect that the engineers assumed since you would be standing there, and were holding the rope, you could let go at any point, and that was the safety. It took several tries to get the clutch to where it would not spin at idle but still pull when you grabbed the rope. We would really be splitting hairs to get it to slip under overload while still pulling at full load. It was less than 1/4 turn of the main shaft between slipping hopelessly and spinning at idle. I really think the safety switch is "you letting go," more than it is relying on the Farmi clutch slipping at overload.

On the issue of winches and tractor size, I think the bigger limiting factor than winch capacity is tractor weight in terms of skidding (or winching) larger trees or loads safely. I can easily pull a very large log out of the woods, and up to the tractor, that I can't safely skid (often, can't even lift once it was choked up to the Farmi); that's not to say I havent dragged a few home that I couldnt get off the ground. But my point is that in the 30-40 HP tractor range, your winch capacity--even with your antique Farmi winch--is probably going to exceed your safe skidding capacity.

No arguments here. But I am in the size range with this tractor that I will stay as it fits the overall needs of the land and my uses. An L series is the right size overall. I'd like to have gotten a bigger engine, but when buying used, you make some compromises. This was the only drawback to this tractor, so I will learn to deal with it. There is no M series in my future for many reasons... Maybe someday I will get a bigger L if I find problems ongoing, but that will be quite a while to that point.

So . . .my advice is that if you are planning to move lots of logs, most of them large, get a larger tractor. If you're going to move occasional logs and can cut them down when they are beyond your equipment's capacity, and dont mind taking a bit longer to do the job, consider buying a newer Farmi winch .

Context is often missing in these things... I am not a professional logger. I am a homeowner (OK - a homeowner with a sickness for equipment...) with 10 ac of woods and am trying to get a building site ready and maintain the land afterwards. A new Farmi winch is not in the cards at all. I have about $300 TOTAL into this one in repairs and parts, and that is a whole lot less than the $3-4k a new small one costs. My initial question was thinking that this thing was designed for a larger HP tractor, but what I am finding out from others is that potentially my PTO or main clutch is not operating quite as it should.

Frankly this is a toy that makes my life easier in some instances, but I could live without. In that first trial, we used it to pull a couple junk logs out of the way plus pull up a few good oak logs that were felled rather "way off the reservation", just by the way they leaned. So with a little cutting down to size, we got them up to the clearing where they can be conveniently blocked up and hauled out. That's a nice win for me as I don't have to block them up down the hill and pull the up by hand. If I can continue to do that, I am happy. But if my tractor has a problem that I need to address, I want to figure that out too.

Thanks again,

-Dave

 

[Baby Grand]

Dave,
From your description of adjusting the winch's clutch it sounds like it's "grabby". When I was learning to drive in the 70's some of the local tuners would replace their stock clutch with an "in and out" clutch. Great for time off the line, but a real handfull on I-95 in stop & go traffic. Sounds like you've got an in and out. Maybe by design or maybe the friction surfaces are worn. Did you get a chance to take the clutch apart and inspect the wear parts? I would think that you should be able feather the clutch enough that you can load it up to the point that it is pulling down your RPMs, but then starts slipping without stalling your engine. Who knows, maybe that was never the design intent.
-Jim

 

[therdriele]

Thanks for your comments about my post; glad it was helpful!

I second Jim's post about a grabby clutch on your Farmi. Farmi's are beautifully engineered, simple and strong- - per my comment before, I dont know if the design is the same on the old model Dave has, but on the newer ones that clutch should slip regardless of how far out the rope is pulled. Pull the rope just a bit and you get a gentle pull on the cable before the winch slips; pull the rope hard and the winch pulls hard before it slips, and pull the rope ALL the way out, until it stops, and the winch pulls at maximum capacity (and this is enough to drag the tractor or lift the front end, usually, if the log is hung) but the winch will still slip if the tractor is well planted and the log is snagged on a stump.

You're right Dave that the first line of defense is to let go of the rope, but I dont think that was the engineers' only plan in terms of keeping these winches from rolling tractors over. And BTW Dave I wasnt really suggesting that you need a new tractor or should replace the antique Farmi --just that, as we all know you can get the same amount of work done with smaller (or older design) equipment, it just takes longer. I used to own a 2550 and it was fine for skidding smaller logs (carefully) and the disadvantages of less weight and HP are offset somewhat by being able to work places in the woods that larger equipment couldnt go. The whole idea of using the Farmi winches and smaller tractors is to minimize the impact you have when logging and this setup works really well --only horse-logging leaves a smaller footprint. Sounds like your tractor is the right size for your place, anyway.

Incredible pictures, also, thanks for sharing them. I'm gonna save those for the next time I'm feeling sorry for myself about parting a cable or bursting a hose. Just curious. . .do you know if that hunk of the axle case was PULLED out from the root of the top link, or RAMMED back in, to break it out like that?

-Dave in Vermont

 

[rbargeron]

It was pulled. There were several logs drawn in tight and winch was lifted. Going up over a rise, the front wheels started down, and the top link and gear case broke out. There's a 3-page thread here from 2004 - pics don't display now but I have them if anybody wants them. Also in that thread are two great extended posts on skidding written by Bob Mayer, an Indiana silviculture expert and TBN member since the beginning.

 

[Gordon Gould]

Your set up must be similar to my 30 HP L3010 and 290 Farmi Winch but my
L3010 is gear not HST. If I hook onto a log I cant start or get hung up
there is some serious jerking on the tractor. You have not mentioned this.
The motor lugs down and will stall or the tractor gets dragged.
I would think that that if you are getting any where close to 24HP from
your PTO you would see the same thing. My L3010 w/ FEL , winch, and
loaded tires weighs almost 5000 lbs. A 36' oak log with avg diameter of
14" weighs about 2500 lbs. My winch can pull 6400 lbs. If things are
working correctly the problem with winching in big logs should be
being able to keep the tractor planted in one spot not the PTO stalling.
As Dave said you should be able to winch stuff you cant safely skid out.

 

[rbargeron]

I may be full of prunes on the pto slipping thing. Several posters have thought there was something wrong with the pto clutch. I've been saying it may be ok, maybe even safer that it slips.

Yesterday I talked with another person that thinks something isn't right. This is a guy who has worked around Kubotas for years, growing up in his father's small dealership which he now operates. When I told him the pto would not stall the engine, he said it should.

 

[dstig1]

Thanks again for your help, guys. I haven't had a chance to call the dealer yet, as I am pretty well booked right now, but maybe later this week. With all I am reading I want to get a real solid opinion on if the PTO is working correctly or not. I suspect there is some issue, but I also suspect that it will be $2k to fix with everything that has to come apart to get to the PTO clutch. If it is working "OK" for now, it will probably have to remain that way. Perhaps it will get worse down the road, but then that should help find the source of the problem, I'd think. By then, I should have a service manual and might be in a better position to tear it apart myself. I just don't have room to do that right now, plus I'm not sure how I would handle a 4-500 lb rear wheel (filled).

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[roadhouse]

i must say, this is a prety good thread. it was nice to read through all the different oppinions of everybody and not see anybody crying and arguing about whos right and who knows more. with that said, ill throw out my thought wich agrees with majority, im pretty sure your clutch shouldnt slip, it should bog your engine. im very curios as to what your dealerships mechanic has to say. john