Skid steer snow blower on tractor loader?

[grsthegreat]

The pump has the female spline that mates to the PTO shaft. It has a bracket that hangs down on both sides of the draw bar. That keeps the pump housing from turning and a clamp goes behind that bracket to keep the pump from sliding off the PTO shaft. Not sure what advantage there is to that set up is over a PTO shaft from the pump to the tractor PTO would be. I can tell you the disadvantage is, its a pain in the a$$ to install. I've never weighed the pump but it's heavy (my guess 80lb), plus a large and a small hydraulic hose you have to fight with to install.

does your pump vibrate much during use. mine does. im going to builda support bracket this summer to try and dampen that.

 

[dennis103]

I didn't notice any vibration, but i was concerned about all that weight on my PTO shaft. So I got a piece of metal the width of the draw bar and thick enough so I had to pick up on the pump to get it between the pump bracket and draw bar. Then I welded it to the clamp that bolts to the draw bar so the pump won't slide off the PTO shaft. I'm thinking that will help support the pump (on the draw bar) instead of all that weight just hanging off the PTO shaft.I talked to the dealer about the weight and even had a conversation with an old farmer friend of mine about it and they both said I had nothing to worry about. I still worried about it until I supported it on the draw bar.

 

[grsthegreat]

Mine has a bracket that supports the pump weight on the drawbar, not the pto shaft. I just dont like the vibrating pump. Im going to fab up a sleve that will slide unto the drawbar for additional support.

 

[dennis103]

If you get a chance take a picture and post it so I can see your pump set up. If I like it better than mine maybe I can copy it.

 

[grsthegreat]

I know i wont get around to it until snow season is over. I. Probibly going to have to disassemble the hose connections on pump and remove tank to be able to mess with it easily. There sure isnt much room to fiddle with stuff when hoses are hooked up.

 

[grsthegreat]

And that pump must be approaching 80#. Its a monster to install. I have to add a pto extension on mine due to the way the drawbar is attached on the kioti.

 

[dennis103]

Is there any way the extension is causing the vibration?

 

[grsthegreat]

Is there any way the extension is causing the vibration?

I really dont know. But without the 6 “ extension i could not use the pump. Im going to try and make a rectangular tube support that will slip over the drawbar and slide the entire unit onto the pto. Hopefully this will also make installation easier also, because as it stands now the pump always tries to rotate off the drawbar while lining up the splines.

ill make the entire think in 1/4” plate…or possible 3/8” depending on the amount of spacing between pump and drawbar.

 

[hayden]

I've made a bunch of progress, have the snow blower installed and working, but there are a number of problem. In the first snow storm which wasn't very big, I only made it half way down my road before I gave up, returned to the shop, and reinstalled my old rear facing blower to finish clearing snow.

Here's the longer story.

Installation wasn't too bad. Because it's a used unit, it came with hoses and I would guess it was on a much larger tractor. There were two sections of hose with quick coupler, and I suspect the mid couplers were positioned at the loader mount so the loader could be removed while leaving one hose segment with the loader, and the other with the tractor. I only needed one segment in length, but it leaves me without couplers for removing the loader. That's no problem since I have only removed the loader once in the 15 years that I have owned the tractor.

It took some fussing to sort out where to run the hoses, where to position the forward quick couplers, and to be sure I had enough length at the rear to connect to the power pack. At first I just secured everything with tie wraps, and now I have bolted down the front bracket that holds the coupler.

The power pack mounted fine, and although the pump is heavy and awkward, especially with the hoses attached, I was able to get it on and off OK. I think it's a lot less than 80 lbs. In fact I'd be surprised if it's more then 50lbs. but I haven't measured it. What did help was to install the tractor draw bar first, and leave it extended out as far as possible. I was then able to lift the pump and it's bracket that straddles the draw bar up onto the bar. That's the hard lift, and gets it close to the PTO shaft. From there is wasn't too hard to get it on the shaft and pushed into position. Then it was easy to push the draw bar in and install the stop that keeps the pump from walking off the shaft.

Since the first install. I have attached a chain and hook to the pump so when the power pack is off the tractor I can hang the pump from the top link pin. It also keeps the pump pretty close to where it needs to be to install and remove from the PTO shaft.

I couldn't find a good location in the cab for the chute control, so I decide that I would try using my loader front remote to control rotation, and leave the deflector in a fixed position. My old blower has a fixed deflector and I have never felt compelled to adjust it, so I figured that would be fine. So I got a couple of hoses and hooked it up.

Operation so far has been a big disappointment, but I remain confident it can be fixed. I'd love to hear any suggestions on some of these issues, especially from people using this same blower. Here are the issues:

- The loader front remote is WAY too fast to control the chute. Just the quickest tap of the control button rotates the chute 180 deg. I thought about installing restrictors in the lines to slow it down, but decided that by the time I did that, I might as well just bite the bullet and figure out how to install the control that came with the blower. I did that, found an OK location for the control, and now the chute rotation and deflection works well. Problem solved.

- I pretty quickly found that I have very limited steering. With the loader floating, by front wheels are pretty ineffective at steering. I can make slight course corrections when going straight, but any bigger turns are impossible. If I lift the blower it puts enough weight back on the front wheels and simultaneously reduces the drag from the blower and I can steer fine, but then it's not clearing the ground was closely as I'd like, and it's a pain to have to be lifting and lowering all the time. Maybe with practice I'll get good at just taking enough weight off to be able to steer, then going back to float. I have also thought about putting chains on the front wheels (I have studded chains on the rear wheels), but there are very limited choices for R1 tires, and of course everything is sold out for the season. So I have been practicing break steering which helps, but is still limited, mostly because I also need to be in 4wd, and brake steering doesn't work so well in 4wd. Maybe with practice I'll develop a technique to make this work, but so far I think I'll need to get front chains. I'm really interested to hear from others if they have this issue and how they have dealt with it.

- I found that the fan just doesn't have the balls to throw snow vary far. And as I cleared more, the chute started plugging up every 5 feet. Interestingly, the tractor engine wasn't loading down when all this was happening, which it turns out was an important clue.

After a few days of contemplation about the power problem, I concluded that the system was likely not developing full hydraulic pressure. At rated flow and pressure it should be bogging down my tractor, but it's not. Instead, the blower, and fan in particular, are bogging down. So today I started to dig into it.

From a previous project I have a hydraulic flow meter and a variable restrictor valve that I used to set up the hydraulics for my excavator mulcher. I got that McGivered into the system, started and idled the tractor, and engaged the PTO. Flow was about 6 gpm, and no pressure registering. The blower was operating, so that's all normal. I then started to apply some restriction, wanting to see the pressure build up, and ultimately see the relief valve open at around 3000 psi. The first problem I discovered is that I installed the flow restrictor the wrong way around so it free flows in teh direction I'm using it. Duh. So instead, I blocked the fan with a 4x4 so it couldn't turn. That does the same thing, and should cause pressure to build up to the relief pressure. I engaged the PTO and slowly let the clutch out, the hydraulics labored a bit, but pressure only built to 1000 psi. I reved up the engine a bit at it went up to 1500 briefly, then back to 1000 psi. So problem identified!

Now I just need to figure out what's causing it. During my test, the flow meter read zero, so there was no flow to the blower, so the pressure wasn't being relieved anywhere in the blower itself. That leaves only two possible causes. First is that the relief value is broken and relieving at way too low a pressure. Second is that the pump is damaged and is unable to build pressure. I'm hoping for a relief valve of course since that's an easy and relatively inexpensive fix. If it turns out to be the pump, I'm guessing it's because the hydraulics were severely overheated by the previous owner. Remember, this power pack does not have the optional cooler, so an overheat seems plausible.

Speaking of hydraulic temperature, in the time I did run the machine, the oil temp only when up to 125F. Outside temp was about 25F. The thermostat for the cooler doesn't even start the fan until it reaches 140F, so I'm well within reasonable limits for now. But I did buy and receive a cooler which I'll install later.

Tomorrow I plan to reinstall the flow/pressure/restrictor devices, but this time the right way around, and between the pump and the relief valve. I can then slowly restrict flow from the pump and see if pressure builds. That will tell me whether the problem is the pump or the relief valve.

Oh, one other issue. I was handling one of the hoses that leads to the blower and felt a kink. After pulling back the protective sleeve, I found a hose that appears to have been crushed. It looks like it's been that way for a while, so I don't think I did it during transport. It's the return hose so I'm not worried about leaks in the sort term, and it's easy to replace.

Thankfully I bought this machine knowing that I might need to fix things, and the price left a lot of room to do that. And the low pressure explains the lack of power, so I just need to fix that and I should be good to go.

 

[grsthegreat]

The steering issue may need chains to fix. I chain up all 4 tires on my tractor so i can use plow anyways.

not sure on problem with your pressures. Mine pumps at about 3,000 psi, 15 gpm. It will bog a bit with real wet snow, but hardly ever jambs with snow. And throws snow very far.

there is an adjustable pressure bypass on snow blower itself.

 

[dstig1]

See if the relief valve is adjustable as GRS said. That would be the first thing to try. That crushed hose could well be an issue too and you may want to consider replacing that in any case. I know it is a pain but it would be good to see the flow and pressure at a couple points in the system. Not sure where you have it now, but I would want to see it right after the pump, before the relief valve, as well as right after the relief.

You sure the pump is getting good fluid supply too? Fluid level good, tank pickup not clogged?

 

[hayden]

The steering issue may need chains to fix. I chain up all 4 tires on my tractor so i can use plow anyways.

not sure on problem with your pressures. Mine pumps at about 3,000 psi, 15 gpm. It will bog a bit with real wet snow, but hardly ever jambs with snow. And throws snow very far.

there is an adjustable pressure bypass on snow blower itself.

Thanks.

Erskine doesn't publish the hydraulic schematics, so I have had to piece a few things together as best I can. Some comes from the manual and parts diagrams, and some comes from a discussion with Erskine. It appears that the fan and auger motors are plumbed in series with the fan first in line. So the fan is relieved by the main pressure relief in the hydraulic power pack. Fluid then flows out of the fan pump and into the auger pump, but there is in intervening auger relief valve that is part of the hydraulic block on the blower. That provides protection in case the auger picks up a rock or branch and jams. The manual says to adjust the auger relief only if the auger is stalling prematurely. Since at the moment my issue appears to be with the fan and main power pack relief valve, that's where I'm focused at least until I fix this particular problem.

 

[hayden]

See if the relief valve is adjustable as GRS said. That would be the first thing to try. That crushed hose could well be an issue too and you may want to consider replacing that in any case. I know it is a pain but it would be good to see the flow and pressure at a couple points in the system. Not sure where you have it now, but I would want to see it right after the pump, before the relief valve, as well as right after the relief.

You sure the pump is getting good fluid supply too? Fluid level good, tank pickup not clogged?

Unfortunately the main relief valve is fixed at 3000 psi.

I will definitely replace the crushed hose - probably early next week. But at the moment I don't think it's a problem since when I haven't jamed the fan so it can't turn, I have good fluid flow on my flow meter, and there is no detectable back pressure.

My pressure gauge and flow meter are currently immediately does stream of the pump and main relief valve. That's how I know that the problem is either the pump unable to develop pressure, or the relief letting go too soon. The next location for the flow and pressure meters will be immediately after the pump, as you say. And this time with a working adjustable flow restrictor to I can put a load just on the pump to see if it builds pressure. That should tell me if it's a pump or relief valve problem.

I think the fluid supply is good, again, because I saw good flow when there is no load on the snow blower. The tank is full, raised above the pump, and it's a 1-1/2" hose on the supply side. And the machine in inside a heated shop at 60F, so I'm not pumping molasses.

 

[ddbackhoe]

Unfortunately the main relief valve is fixed at 3000 psi.

I will definitely replace the crushed hose - probably early next week. But at the moment I don't think it's a problem since when I haven't jamed the fan so it can't turn, I have good fluid flow on my flow meter, and there is no detectable back pressure.

My pressure gauge and flow meter are currently immediately does stream of the pump and main relief valve. That's how I know that the problem is either the pump unable to develop pressure, or the relief letting go too soon. The next location for the flow and pressure meters will be immediately after the pump, as you say. And this time with a working adjustable flow restrictor to I can put a load just on the pump to see if it builds pressure. That should tell me if it's a pump or relief valve problem.

I think the fluid supply is good, again, because I saw good flow when there is no load on the snow blower. The tank is full, raised above the pump, and it's a 1-1/2" hose on the supply side. And the machine in inside a heated shop at 60F, so I'm not pumping molasses.

I am a little confused. You have a 24 gpm/3000psi pump thats showing 6 gpm/0 psi at full pto rpm and with the fan motor blocked?

 

[hayden]

I am a little confused. You have a 24 gpm/3000psi pump thats showing 6 gpm/0 psi at full pto rpm and with the fan motor blocked?

Sorry for the confusion. The engine is at idle or slightly above, and the fan and auger are rotating freely when I see 6 gpm and 0 psi. I think that tells me there are no serious flow restrictions in the system.

Then with the fan blocked and again at idle or slightly above, I get 0 gpm and 1000 psi. I think I should get 0 gpm and 3000 psi, and perhaps even stall the engine. I then increased rpms to see if pressure would build and it momentarily climbed to 1500 psi, but then back down to 1000 psi. Since my pressure gauge is immediately after the pump and main relief valve, I think it tells me that either the pump is unable to develop pressure, or the relief valve is releasing prematurely.

 

[hayden]

It's the pump. I hooked up my flow meter, gauge, and restrictor immediately at the outlet of the pump. With engine at idle, no load but the blower rotating, I get 10 gpm and barely detectable pressure. That's normal. But when I apply load to the pump by restricting flow, it couldn't develop more than 500 psi, even when completely dead headed.

So I pulled the pump apart and indeed it's trashed. Take a look at the attached pictures. I think teh housing it too damaged to even attempt a rebuild, so I'll be getting a new pump. Now I just need to figure out what it is. I did finally find some numbers on it and an embossed "Eaton", so with that I suspect I can figure it out.

If anyone had any pump rebuild experience, I'd be real interested in a read on what might have caused this damage. Because this power pack has no active cooling, and relies solely on ambient temp and operator attention to prevent overheating, I think overheating is a distinct possibility. So I'm particularly interested in whether this could have been caused by overheating. I guess the other possibilities are cavitation or contamination.

 

[grsthegreat]

All i know is when i purchased my unit new in 2010, the original pto pump failed after 2 years use. It leaked like a sieve. I contacted quick attach and they told me they had issues with the pumps from my series and if i shipped the old one back on their dime, they would send me the updated version. That was 8 years ago and this one works flawlessly. Ill go see if i can find a brand or part number on it later today. But mine is only 15 gpm pump. And its extremely heavy

 

[grsthegreat]

Here are a few pics pf the thing.

 

[hayden]

All i know is when i purchased my unit new in 2010, the original pto pump failed after 2 years use. It leaked like a sieve. I contacted quick attach and they told me they had issues with the pumps from my series and if i shipped the old one back on their dime, they would send me the updated version. That was 8 years ago and this one works flawlessly. Ill go see if i can find a brand or part number on it later today. But mine is only 15 gpm pump. And its extremely heavy

That's very interesting and might be related to the problem I have. It would be super helpful if you can get any number off your pump. Mine is an aluminum body, and perhaps they switched to a cast iron body. That would also explain the difference in weight. My pump isn't rebuildable, so if I'm replacing it, I'd like to replace with something good.

 

[hayden]

Here are a few pics pf the thing.

That's a different step-up gear from what I have. Did they replace just the pump, or the whole pump+step-up gear assembly?

Below is a picture of my pump plus gear. Also a picture of the model number etched into the pump mounting flange, and a picture of where it would be located on your pump, except it's probably on the underside of the flange in the corresponding location. That's where mine was.