SAFETY WARNING: Using Loader to Lift with Chains

[glennmac]

Derek, good questions. I have absolutely zero experience with this but I can visualize two things happening under high pulling loads, neither good.

First, it would seem that there must be a tendency for the chain to be pulled into a straight line between the pulled object and the hooks on the top of the bucket. This would mean that the chain line under the bucket would try to lift the bucket up vertically so the chain could straighten. This could either damage the cylinders or actually lift the front wheels off the ground.

Second, the towing force could easily exceed the lift rating of the FEL (at least in my case, 880 lbs.). What happens then? It seems again that you could damage the loader cylinders or arms. Or maybe they would even suddenly release upward creating a bad situation. I don't know if the hydraulics would react this way, but it is a strange situation. The bucket arms are being forced in the "wrong" direction (upwards) by a force greater than they could generate by their own down pressure.

Just thought experiments.

Glenn

 

[Rowski]

As a part-time wrecker operator I have broken some chains. Mostly they broke due to the chain being damaged previously (bent link, chushed link). I have never seen fying chains. Asked my dad about it and he said he has broken MANY too but only seem winch cables some flying. He has been running a wreck for nearly 30 years.

My guess is that the higher grade chains are harder and don't stretch like the lower grade softer chains. If some has a "physics" answer I would like to here it.

As far a cables go when I was kid and rode with dad in the wreck he use to make me stay in the truck if the situation was "unsafe". Once the cable broke during heavy winching and came right over the top of the truck dented the hood and roof and cracked the windshield. Dad always warned me about the flying cables and still does today. He has heard of guy loosing limbs and also die (decapatation{sp?}).

Derek

 

[glennmac]

I think we Kubotans would like to know what JD and NH say in their FEL manuals and on their labels about chain lifting. Could someone look.

Glenn

 

[Rowski]

I like the "ten ten rule". Never heard it before. I still have "ten ten" so far. One thing I try to do a lot is train the mind how to react in a situation. I try to think about what I am doing and what could happen IF. Example: Trying to break free a rusty nut in a cramped quarters. I think if I slip what can happen (bloddy knuckles) and what can I do to prevent it or not make it so dangerous (pull instead of pushing the wrench). Driving in traffic thinking what would I do if the car came into my lane... look for an escape route or less dangerous alternative. I know that things happen really fast and you don't have time to think. But by "thinking" about things you can help the mind react better and maybe quicker.

Basically I always think through what is going on. Inject some common sense and logic. By doing this one can greatly reduce the risk.

Derek

 

[Bird]

A part of defensive driving, Derek, just an old habit of always looking for that escape route.

Bird

 

[gordon]

Yup 10-10 rule sounds dumb but when you think about it even for a second it works. It's like a bad ad on tv you just keep thinking about it. You know from working in a shop how quick things can go bad while working on something. The shop I work at deals in alot of different trades so that even makes it more dangerous at times.
When I'm in the woods it really comes into play a chainsaw can kickback in a fraction of a second so YOU have to always be on your toes. When skidding logs the tractor can flip in a fraction of a second. When loading logs at the staging area the same applies. Plan for the worst and hope for the best! Work smart and safe it's the only way to go!
Gordon

 

[Mike H]

I'll give the physics a shot:

The cable/chain/rope is essentially a spring, albeit a stiff one. When you stretch a spring, you're putting work into it. This work is stored in the form of potential energy. This equation for this energy is U= 1/2 k d^2. K is the stiffness and d is the deflection or stretch. d^2 means that the energy is proportional to the square of the deflection.

When the spring breaks, this energy is released. The more the spring stretched, the more energy there is. Because the energy is proportional to the square of the deflection, if your rope deflects 10 times as much as your chain, the energy your dealing with is 100 times as great. Big chains don't deflect much relative to small cables when subjected to the same load.

p.s. I'm one of the "cables fly all over" guys!

 

[richh]

Well Gordon i was wating for you to touch on this, logging / working in the woods ie. running a chain saw, cable winch ect. I don't think there are any stickers on my saw??? yours??? now talk about something thats dangerous!!!! IM a daily liftor, 3/8" chain no ropes. for many yrs.
Rich

 

[gordon]

Well rich my saws do have stickers on the sides a big H /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Just think how much you would have gotten done without a chain in the woods. And I'm with you about ropes as well I use them to climb trees with not to pull or lift with the tractor.
Have you hooked up the skidding winch to the new tractor yet? If so how well does it compare to the old tractor?
Gordon

 

[EddieW]

Wen, I have a world of experience stepping in wet cow manure so I feel relatively safe when engaging in this activity. I suspect I will continue to do this whether I want to or not. Haven't figured out how to stop the smell yet, though. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[DVerbarg]

Re: SAFETY WARNING: Using Loader to Lift with Cha

Glenn and Kubotans,

Just finished a fast look through the owners manual for the 16LA and 17LA loaders for NH Boomers. There is no mention of using chains with the loader, either for or against. The NH cautions can be summarized as follows:
- Do not carry people on loader or bucket or attachment
- Do not get under a raised loader
- Do not reach through raised loader arms
- Avoid overhead wires
- Make sure dismounted loader is on level, hard surface
- Exercise caution when loader is raised
- Carry bucket in lowest possible position
- Lower bucket to ground when leaving seat
- Handling heavy objects can be dangerous, handle with care
- Use ballasting

There are more details but that is the general thought.

What does JD say?

DaveV

 

[EddieW]

In a recent post on CTB there was a discussion about chains and the final analysis was that good chains have no elasticity and store no energy themselves. If they break they will drop to the ground. However, things they are atached to can provide the energy to make them fly or snap back. Just stating what was said, maybe some of you guys with some knowledge of the properties of metals could clarify this. I will take an action to see what JD says in their manuals. Good discussion, I have been thinking about putting hooks on my bucket so this is very enlightening.

 

[richh]

Just got that darn saw mount made last weekend and put the winch back on, wife had me tilling and i did grind up 2 diff. areas of the road with the tiller to see how it will work, so i will let you know if it gets the "wash" out. Now i went and blew-out my back today at work "to many wood stoves" so im not sure if i will get out in the wods this weekend or not. Its suppost to snow tonight and Sat.!!! I will try and get a photo of the winch and post it for everyone to see since i mite be laying low.
Rich

 

[EddieW]

Re: SAFETY WARNING: Using Loader to Lift with Cha

Just got back from the shop with my manual. Had to walk through wet cow manure in near blizzard conditions (46 degrees)/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif. Anyway, JD says about the same as NH. No mention of using chains to lift. It did advise to relieve all hydraulic pressure before disconnecting the loader and to seek medical help if the hydraulic pressure injects fluid through the skin.

 

[MChalkley]

The best loader brace I've ever seen is actually half a piece of pipe (cut lengthwise) and placed on the cylinder rod while the loader is up, then the loader is lowered slowly until the pipe is wedged.

MarkC

 

[Ian]

scruffy: You're right. Guess I kind of 'made do' with whatever was around at the time, and never gave it any more thought.(after all, it worked the first time, right?)

Have to see what's in the scrap bin at work and see if I can get a better solution welded up.

I like MChalkley's 1/2 pipe idea too.

 

[Rowski]

Thanks Mike. So what's the "k" for 3/8 grade 80 chain? Just kidding! Took physics about 8 years ago... but don't use it every day.

Derek

 

[Rowski]

For recover work cable are alot easier to use especially on a winch. I have found the if you have to winch hook on to the something using a chain then hook the cable to the chain. I see a lot of operators hook the cable directly under the car/truck and the cable is then rubbing and/or the cable will be on a hard bend. Another thing I see a lot of is guys winching them selves out of mud hole ETC. and wrap the cable right around the tree or rock and "choke" the cable.

I have controls on either side of the truck so I get on the side where if a break did occur the cable would least likely get me. I tell you it gets pretty uncomfortable sometimes during recovery. You gotta watch for traffic (some people don't know what flares and cones are!), make sure the truck is chucked and not sliding and how much "pressure" is on the truck, watching what the vehcile being recoverd is doing (trying no to damage it anymore), make sure you are safe (and what do if something happens). If something does happen it happens so quick!

I've heard that the cable when it snaps you don't even see it!

I agree with the chains Mark 110%!

Derek

 

[glennmac]

Re: SAFETY WARNING: Using Loader to Lift with Cha

Dave, thanks. The lack of mention may tell us something. Any labels on the subject on the loader?

Glenn