roof trusses

[wroughtn_harv]

Miss Glenda just read our exchange. She wants me to be sure and let you know just how much I've enjoyed this place and to properly thank you.

I think I just did. But if I didn't, consider it done now. Thanx/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

The speed square gives you the bottom and top cuts via numbers. A five at the top is a five at the bottom.

I just cut some plates for a built in place open beam cedar trusses. The general contractor told me they were number five plumb cuts and that's all I needed from him.

BTW I have probably six or seven speed squares between the truck and the shop. They are evenly divided between six and twelve inch. I also have about half of them with the inside corner beveled for using with steel where you have a bead to keep it from fitting flush.

Stanley also makes a nice square for angle cutting. It has a floating arm that's held in place with a screw. You find your angle you prefer and then tighten it down and use it for all your cuts. If you hold it on one side it's the top cut and when you turn it around it's the seat cut. That one was invaluable when I stick built those pavilions out of large cedar.

Another thing is you'll see carpenters carry the small speed square in their pouch on their belt. And when they have to do a cut on a two by they will make their mark and then use the speed square as a guide for their circular saw. A perfect ninety degree cut every time.

I think the most important tool to making things is to always keep in mind that the difference between me and a professional is practice. I can do that.

 

[mikim]

A couple of points here - just my opinion 'course

1. the bigger speed squares are better when using for marking off angles. There is too much room for error with the smaller ones - get the biggest you can find to use when laying off - and use the small one in your pouch for handy checks
2. on the same point actually, since a framing square is bigger yet - it's even better for laying off - and you can get little round screw clamp thingys for clamping on the framing square for multiple markings (always the case)
3. Very few framing squares are "square" never use one for checking the square of anything. There is a little trick for finding a square square - but it's better just to assume that the one you're using isn't.
4. I've never found a speed square that wasn't square

I use a speed square for a saw guide and checking "square" and a framing square for laying off - either rafter cuts or stairs or whatever - Grandpa taught me how to use a framing square before there were speed squares and I guess I just prefer that - can't help but remember those sessions with him every time I'm carpentering

1 real pearl from him -- when using power tools on a job site - always set the things down on the ground between uses --- can't fall off and get broken from there!

mike

 

[Bird]

Hmm, I didn't even think about that, but naturally, my brothers and I all have (and use) the speed squares. Instead of the angles, I was thinking of the question in terms of where to put the vertical supports (or whatever you call them). I guess it just seems so simple when you've done a few that you forget how to tell anyone else how it's done./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Another thing I've heard of people having trouble cutting out is stair stringers. That's another one that I don't think I could tell anyone how to do (could show them), but never could see how anyone would have a problem with it.

 

[MDNick]

One other thing not mentioned about truss building. If you are having to pull a permit, most likely you can not build your own trusses. They have to be built by a certified builder. As I understand it, you can stick build, or buy certified trusses. Now if you do not have to build to code, then making your own can be much cheaper. That is if you have the time. With the cost of lumber, your time off sets the cost benefit awfully quick for a $70 truss.

I was told less than $100 for a 30' scissor truss for my garage. Also need a 30' floor truss or engineered beam. About $43 for it (engineered I beam). I will be getting the final plan together in the next few weeks for a 30x40 2 story garage from 84 lumber. 2nd story will be workshop and storage. My house does not have a basement, so I am massively starved for storage space. 1472 sf house, 2400 sf garage. The way FATHER nature intended. We won't discuss what mother nature may have had in mind.

Nick

 

[rationalizer]

Nick,

I'm in the process of building my own barn (see the thread on "building a barn - how big?) and I am planning on building my own gambrel trusses - based on plans from "barnplans.com" (They are mentioned in several other threads). As you commented - I ran into an issue with my inspector here. He is very finicky. He asked for an engineer to sign them off so I'm getting the engineered truss calcs from Barnplans and hoping that will make him happy... I calculate that the trusses will cost about $65 each for a 32' clearspan gambrel truss. I'm not counting the nailer, compressor, and chop saw I need to get...but I need those anyway. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif Based on what I've seen - you really have to WANT to build them yourself to make it pay.

Bill

 

[MDNick]

Rationalizer,

For the gambrel truss, once you get it by the building inspector, it is MUCH cheaper to build it yourself. My quote from 84 lumber for a gambrel truss, 26' span was $450. Yes, that is correct, $450. If I could have gotten my own trusses past the inspector, I would have done it. Not much of an option here. You are NOT building your own truss. So while your inspector is finicky, at least they allow you to DIY. My original plan was a gambrel roof. But for a 36'x26', 84 lumber wanted $8500 or so for JUST THE TRUSSES. Sorry, no can do.

I wish you luck in your project right now. When I start mine in the next month or 2 I'll only be wishing myself luck, I'll need all I can get.

Nick

 

[rationalizer]

Nick,
I haven't gotten them approved yet... If I can't build my own I've got some alternative ways to get a gambrel roofline. There are two truss companies within 5 miles of my house (and more in the area) so I'm confident that I can do better then $450... Yikes. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Bill

 

[Anonymous Poster]

When the inspector says he wants an engineer to sign the plans he probably means he wants to see a signature and license # and not an engineered truss from plans. Here in Michigan most localities that follow the state building code are really tough about that. I would get a confirmation from the inspector that he will approve the truss plans before I put any more resources into the truss building. I have had my differences with inspectors but it's always easier in the long run to see it their way.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

I may be the odd duck here (not a rare role for me, actually). /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif I happen to really like building trade inspectors. I've had good experiences wih them over the years. Maybe it's in my approach. I make it a point to seek them out early on and invite them out to show them what I'm planning on doing or wanting to accomplish and ask their input. Around here they are typically very experienced in their various areas of expertise, usually having worked in the field for decades.

My goal is two-fold. I genuinely want their advice and counsel. I can't count the number of times they've offered suggestions that improved my project. Most times it also saved me time, effort or money if not all three. I also want to befriend them and involve them in "our" project. It's much harder for an inspector to find a problem when he's been co-opted into the project and been a part of it from the beginning. I've never failed to pass an inspection first time through. One time there was a small problem (wrong gauge ground wire in meter box) and the inspector changed it himself then passed it. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Morning Gary,

Sometimes it's the odd duck that gets the job done. I've always had good luck with the inspectors. I suspect it's been because I understand that the rules are there from experience but they are a place to start towards a better product.

The few times I've had problems have been with those that really wouldn't or couldn't think outside of the box. Or the previous contractors or homeowner had so pissed them off there was a problem before I got there.

 

[rationalizer]

I agree that it is important to work with the inspectors - I called him "finicky" but he isn't unreasonable (I worked with him when building the house) In fact - the only reason that I'm waiting to start is that I want to make sure that he is "on board" before I commit real resources. He approved the plans we submitted - marked up the pages etc. and said "good to go". He didn't put any mark-ups on the truss page... My builder & I said "hmm - does he understand what we are doing....?" So my builder got back in touch, explained that I would be building the trusses, and the inspector said "well - I STRONGLY urge you to get an engineer to sign off" (He didn't say "can't do that"). So - I now have a signed/PE stamped truss analysis from Barnplans.com. Assuming the inspector buys off on this I'll be good to go. If not - I'll go to plan B with a local truss builder.

Wish me luck!

Bill

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

It sure sounds to me like you're on the right track. You probably won't have any problems since you involved him early on. Good luck with this. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[skid mark]

Here's a dumb question: Are you guys _required_ to
get an OK from a building inspector?

Where I live (West Texas), if it's not in the city, then no
need for permits, inspections, etc. Feel free to throw up
the biggest POS that you can dream up!

I guess the downside is that if it collapses and hurts
somebody, there is certain to be a legal side of winging
it on your own....

I'm taking my chances. I am modeling my trusses after
a company that makes theirs "to city code" and am in
fact overengineering their design. But I'll not be
soliciting any outside opinions on the barn. Who knows,
maybe the tax appriaser won't notice the change for a few
years since I'm not giving them a heads up!

Best,

Mark

 

[Bird]

Mark, it's the same way here in Central Texas. The electric company (co-op) provides the meter base and instructions for the pole, weather head, ground rod, wiring between the top of the pole and the meter, etc., then they send a man out to inspect that before they hook up the electricity. From the meter on, it's whatever you want to do. A permit is required for a septic system, along with an inspection before backfilling. But for your other projects, you're on your own. When we built my brother's house, he drew his own blueprints and took them, along with a copy of his resume, to a bank in town and they promptly approved a construction loan, which they then rolled over into a conventional loan upon completion (and this was a bank with which he'd never done business since he hadn't yet moved to this area). And as far as we know, there was never any inspection done by anyone. However, with my brothers' past experience as homebuilders in Alaska and a general contractor's license in the state of Washington, I think he was experienced enough to know what the codes are and think we built it so it would pass code in town. He said at the time that he wanted it that way for himself, and that he might have to pass an inspection if he ever sold it, and sure enough he sold it this past Spring after the buyer hired an inspector to examine everything.

 

[rationalizer]

Mark,

Its a "little" more regulated where I live (only about 7 miles from Ann Arbor - but I think it is consistent in most of SE Michigan) Here we have to file a request for permit, get that signed off, then they inspect the foundation, and then a final sign off (I have no electricity or plumbing in the barn - so I'm guessing that if I did they would be inspected as well - they were on the house) The inspector rules - he made my neighbors "move" their pole barn after they had already set the poles...because they changed the rules for barn placement relative to house lines AFTER the plans had been approved... It can be frustrating - but it does mean the structures are robust. Still - my standards are usually higher than the inspectors - its just a matter of getting the signature that can be frustrating... Of course my neighbors are using a semi trailer to store hay for their horses...so there are "gaps".

Bill

 

[chim]

Just thought I'd mention something I read in an article on roof failures in one of the in-law's farming magazines. This was a few Winters ago, when there had been problems with snow.

There was some importance attached to supporting the truss only where it was designed to be supported. They had some pictures of structures where the owner was "doing the truss a favor" by running vertical supports to the trusses at approx. midspan in a building. There was an explanation that the trusses were designed to NOT be supported there, and the farmer actually weakened the trusses by doing so.

There was an example of how to make a sliding connection so that walls could be tied to the trusses, but the trusses would be free to move vertically.................chim

 

[centex]

Where I am at in rural Burnet county you have to have the septic permit and inspections but in some counties in Texas even this is not required if you build on greater than 10 acres. One of my friends built on 12 acres in Smith county just outside of Tyler. He did his own septic system with no permits or inspections required but they don't have the rocky soil that channels all runoff into streams and lakes like we do in Burnet county. A building permit is required in Burnet county for improvements so the Tax Appraiser knows to increase your taxes but no inspections are required. Of course if you finance or sell the lack of inspections could be a big problem.

 

[Bird]

Yep, Don, 7 years ago no permit or anything else required in Navarro County if you had 10 acres or more in accordance with state law (have you ever seen the state statute? It's a big thick book that's about like trying to read War and Peace). I can't say for sure, but I think Navarro County is now requiring the permit regardless of property size. And also when my brother and I had our systems installed, the permit fee was $10, but 2 or 3 years ago the county commissioners decided to raise that fee a little bit; to $400 (talk about inflation!/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif).

 

[Chillimau]

Midwest Plan Service has some magazine size books on trusses. Gives loads for roof and ceiling and a diagram of the truss. What to use for the top, bottom cords and for the struts. Also has specs for different species of lumber. They use the plywood gussets. Dad and I repaired some 40's with plywood gussets before we set them. I'm building some steel 50' footers for a shop building. I agree metal is a very time consuming process, cutting, grinding, welding, painting.

Gary

 

[Ozarker]

Thanks. That is a great web site with lots of different books on various construction topics.

Here is a link for everyone else:

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bae.umn.edu/extens/mwps/index.html>http://www.bae.umn.edu/extens/mwps/index.html</A>