Rim Guard --> Beet Juice

Junkman · Nov 5, 2003

( I would say that as far as tire load goes, you are probably right. but how many compact owners exceed the tire load?
As far as the conforming, from what I have seen, the weight of the water on the bottom of the tire vs the cast load through the sidewall is the difference. Tires are designed to carry their loads through sidewall not the type of load that the water supplies to the contact patch only or should I say in large part. )

The liquid inside of the tire is actually a help to the sidewall of the tire. Liquid unlike air doesn't compress so the liquid makes the sidewall stiffer and less likely to break the tire bead. This is one of the things that I have noticed about filled tires vs. non filled tires....

JerryG · Nov 5, 2003

I wasn't referring to the stability of the sidewall. The weight of the fluid on the contact patch prevents it from conforming to the soil in the same way that a non-loaded tire does. Everyone that still insists on using fluid needs to speak to the Firestone Ag people. They make the tires and know how the get the most traction out of them and it is not fluid. They will tell you that. If you insist by all means use fluid, but cast has proved to be better. That is the reason most large farmers have gone to cast.

Junkman · Nov 5, 2003

call me stubborn, obstinate, pig headed, etc., but I will agree with you to disagree. This is like so many things in life, it depends on your experiences and personal preferences. I have used both and prefer the filled. I still have my wheel weights and might add them to the tractor at some time in the future, since the philosophy of "more is better"....... As for the people at Firestone making claims, I still remember the debacle of the Ford Explorer where Firestone said that there was no problem with the tires and it was the car..... I didn't agree with them at that time and I still don't necessarily agree with them now.... call me pig headed!!!!!! I may not be correct all the time, but this is my opinion and I am always correct about my opinion. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

AndyMA · Nov 6, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

I have to agree with Junkman. Both of my tractors have and always will have loaded tires. My 2120 has calcium and my TN75 has Rim Guard. The Ford specs on my 2120 with 7309 loader specify that you load the tires 75%, add weights to the rear tires and carry a load on the 3 pt hitch (all 3) for loader stability. All 3 weight amounts are specified but I don't have the manual here. I think that the combined amount is about equal to the loader lift capacity if my memory serves me well.

I also do not believe that Firestone does not recommend loading tires. I searched their site and there was not even a reference to not loading. There was a multi page tech note on how to load tires. The URL for it is here http://www.firestoneag.com/tiredata/info/info_hydro_1.asp

I also think the deflection difference between loaded and unloaded tires assuming they are only 75% loaded is minimal. Remember it's not the fluid that compresses, but the air.

From what I've read on this board many of you seem to under inflate your tires. I've also always run my tires at recommended tire pressures without traction problems.

Just my opinions based on driving tractors since 1958. But opinions are always subject to change.

Andy

Junkman · Nov 6, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

You have made my day neighbor...... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gifguess that I will just have to buy you a beer next time to celebrate.......

JerryG · Nov 6, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

Firestone has lots and lots of information on hydro fill. That is not to say that is the most current recommendation or the most usefull. Lots of things change as time does. Just like very few plow with horses any more if they have a large farm. When the tractor first came to market most thought it was a joke and tried to stay with their horse till they were put out of business. Has anyone used steel wheels not tires but wheels on their tractor lately? Lots of things come and go and there are always some that hold on to the old no matter how out dated or ineffective it is.
THE END

Junkman · Nov 6, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

are you implying that I am old and antiquated??????? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Henro · Nov 6, 2003

How does a part liquid part air-filled tire have any different tire contact patch than a pure air-fill? The tire has not "gone solid" - it is still compressible - the air pressure in the (still considerable volume of) non-liquid zone is still set to the same pressure setting as the pure-air tire. That comment leaves me stumped. 

I don:t know if it is a practical consideration, but there is a pressure/vol. relationship with a gas. Since the liquid in the tire is not compressable, it reduces the vol that the remaining gas in the tire occupies.

If volume goes down, pressure goes up.

If the tire flattens out, it seems like the internal volume would reduce. In this case, the air pressure in the bubble on the top would go much higher than it would if it was only air filled tire.

This increased pressure could reduce the amount the tire will the liquid fill would flatten as compared to a non-filled tire.

I have no idea if this makes any practical sense...I know the theory is there...my gut tells me filled or unfilled would be about the same...

Using this logic the original comment seemed possible to me... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Overthink on my part maybe... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Rowski · Nov 6, 2003

( The weight of the fluid on the contact patch prevents it from conforming to the soil in the same way that a non-loaded tire does. )

I think this would be true for radial tires.

( Everyone that still insists on using fluid needs to speak to the Firestone Ag people. )

I did talk to the Firestone Ag division. The engineer I spoke with said load was a good idea (for my situation and the type of Firestone tire I have).

PineRidge · Nov 6, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

 Firestone has lots and lots of information on hydro fill. That is not to say that is the most current recommendation or the most usefull. Lots of things change as time does. Just like very few plow with horses any more if they have a large farm. When the tractor first came to market most thought it was a joke and tried to stay with their horse till they were put out of business. Has anyone used steel wheels not tires but wheels on their tractor lately? Lots of things come and go and there are always some that hold on to the old no matter how out dated or ineffective it is.


Jerry I could not have said it any better myself. We all have choices but I believe filled tires to be the old way, not the best way.

Just my 2 cents worth.

cowboydoc · Nov 6, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

I don't know about these little compact tractors on acreages but from a farming standpoint you are much better off with weights. There are many times that the weight has to be varyed depending on what you are doing. Not many tractors these days for farms or ranches are filled with fluid anymore. The choice for the most part is to use weights so you can take them off and on as necessary depending on the field conditions and what crop you are producing. About the only time you fill tires anymore is when you are going to have a dedicated loaded tractor, usually with 4wd, that you aren't going to do any crop work or will be using the tractor where compaction isn't an issue.

art · Nov 6, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

Nothing better then seeing the difference of two identical tractors doing identical tillage work and watch the change by removing the cast and adding the exact same weight of calcium. You can go lighter with cast by 1/3 and still have the same as with juice. I always thought that ballast was ballast but I had to wait till I was nearly 50 to see it proven it isn't the same.

JerryG · Nov 6, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

fwc · Nov 12, 2003

timb,
( How does a part liquid part air-filled tire have any different tire contact patch than a pure air-fill? The tire has not "gone solid" - it is still compressible - the air pressure in the (still considerable volume of) non-liquid zone is still set to the same pressure setting as the pure-air tire. That comment leaves me stumped.
)
I have no practical experience with filled tires but if you take one of those 2 litre plastic bottles - let the pressure off of it while its mostly full, then seal it tight and squeeze. Compare the amount of deflection you can cause on a completely empty one (filled with air and sealed) - I haven't tried this with just water in it instead of coke.. maybe the Co2 is swelling the bottle a bit...but I suspect its cuz liquids are compressible but not as compressible as gases - any way something to think about. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

floyd/fwc

hazmat · Nov 12, 2003

suspect its cuz liquids are compressible but not as compressible as gases 

For all practical purposes, Liquids are NOT compressible. If you filled the coke bottle 100%, any squish you get will be countered by a bulge in the other direction.

I think my fluid dynamics professor would get a kick out of this discussion. I can see it now: For homework: How much stiffer is a 75% fluid filled tire than a 100% air filled tire? You could make the labratory exercise lots of fun - Class, go move some dirt with those two tractors & report back!

Rowski · Nov 13, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

Does anybody know if it is possible to get 500+ lbs per wheel in wheel weights for the larger compacts.

Also what does the OEM wheel weight set-up go for?

I have a friend who I helped pick out a tractor this fall. Its a Kubota L4330 with loader and backhoe. We did not have the chloride put in. We wanted Rim Guard, but no local dealers yet. So I was thinking, after fluid vs wheel weights discussion, it maybe better for him to go the wheel weight route.

Thanks

MikePA · Nov 13, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

 Does anybody know if it is possible to get 500+ lbs per wheel in wheel weights for the larger compacts. 
If the Kubota Operator's Manual is like my NH manual, there's a section on wheel weights and it will list how much weight per wheel Kubota recommends. Odds are it will also list the different weight recommended based upon the tire type. In the case of the NH, Ag tires and wheels can handle more weight.

art · Nov 13, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

The attaching parts is the is the most important. They don't normally recommend it but it can be done and is.

timb · Nov 13, 2003

I guess you could rough it by saying that you have a 400% stiffer "air spring" in theory since you have but 25% of the compressible volume - at the same pressure - but I'm going to guess that the enclosure structure (i.e. the tire) is not a bystander in this situation. Quite a lot of the (sidewall) stiffness or shape "holding" (and subsequently the tire contact patch/shape and "ride") is from the tire carcass itself. Going to a 75% fill isn't going to turn the tire into a railroad "steel wheel on a steel rail" situation. On top of that - is it possible that the fluid weight/pressure actually *increases* the tire patch from the effects of the fluid inside of the tire? (think of an air-filled ballon sitting on a table versus a water balloon). Well possibly at least there is some "expansion" offset to any reduction in overall compressibility of the tire from loading.

And certainly radials are going to react a *lot* different than bias-ply tires but I don't know if any of the CUT mfg's offer radials either standard or as an option. I do believe the tire mfgs. give very different recommendations for radials than more traditional bias tractor tires.

JerryG · Nov 13, 2003

Re: Loading vrs Not Loading

Rowsiki,
I don''t think that it would be feasible to put that much on. I have a 40 hp compact and have 200 lbs. per side. I do quite a bit of ground engaging work, bottom plowing, cultivation and box blading. The total 400 lbs is enough. I think that if you have much more that you will be over weighted. More is not always better. If you put so much on that you are not getting some tire slippage, then you have to much. That is very had on the drive train and uses more fuel than needed. As far as price goes, I have about $350 in my weights and brackets.