Rifle advice

[ihookem]

400 yds is too far. Lots of talk when it works but it is really a risky shot. One step right when the gun goes off and it's a wounded deer.

 

[foggy1111]

You have enough cartridge for deer size critters at 400 yards with the 308.....but I can also appreciate wanting a bit more gun.

A good bolt action gun will typically hold better groups than an autoloader....and its is much easier to tweak into a good shooter. Triggers are easier to work.....actions are tighter.....ammo can be tweaked and not effect operation of the gun....etc etc. So....stick with a bolt if you want to shoot long range.

I own a 300 Win Mag and a 300 WSM in a gun made by Kimber (Montana model). I have owned several magnum guns and have hunted in the west at long ranges....and short. I am very happy with the accuracy of my Montanna for a big-bore, long-range gun.

I have used it for moose, bear, elk. If shooting deer size critters......I would pick my Remington Mountain rifle in 280 caliber....but either will work. Most calibers from say a 270 win through the various 30 caliber magnums will work for deer out to 400 yards - and have adequate power - if the correct bullets are chosen - and its sighted in correctly.

Probably the most important thing is to get your gun sighted in for long range shooting (2" high at 200 yards works for me) and then practice at those ranges - both from a bench (to see how the rifle shoots) and from field positions with shooting sticks or other gun supports. Then get your ballistic "path" known - tape it to the gun.....and practice, practice, practice. (Target knobs or a TDS reticle would be nice to have too if you are doing allot of shooting at long ranges.)

Good guns can be made to shoot close groups (1 moa is good) at long range. The shooter is normally the weak link in the chain. With the knowledge of how well the gun will shoot (and where) a good shot can expect to reliably kill critters at quite long ranges. I shoot prairie dogs out to 700 yards quite reliably - when the wind isn't blowing (but this requires a 1/2" moa gun)......and I have no problem with deer size critters out to that range....provided its sighted in right and there are not too many variables present....I am not breathing hard....and yadda yadda.

Also.....whenever possible use the best rest you can find. Learn to use shooting sticks.

Long range.....it isn't for everybody.....and it takes a good gun, good ammo, knowledge, and practice.

OH....and a range finder......absolutely positively required to be able to take shots at those ranges. I own a Lieca...and its a good one. Have not investigated them lately.

In your quest for long range shooting......I hope your prepared to spend some money....lol.

 

[Steve C]

You have enough cartridge for deer size critters at 400 yards with the 308.....but I can also appreciate wanting a bit more gun.

A good bolt action gun will typically hold better groups than an autoloader....and its is much easier to tweak into a good shooter. Triggers are easier to work.....actions are tighter.....ammo can be tweaked and not effect operation of the gun....etc etc. So....stick with a bolt if you want to shoot long range.

I own a 300 Win Mag and a 300 WSM in a gun made by Kimber (Montana model). I have owned several magnum guns and have hunted in the west at long ranges....and short. I am very happy with the accuracy of my Montanna for a big-bore, long-range gun.

I have used it for moose, bear, elk. If shooting deer size critters......I would pick my Remington Mountain rifle in 280 caliber....but either will work. Most calibers from say a 270 win through the various 30 caliber magnums will work for deer out to 400 yards - and have adequate power - if the correct bullets are chosen - and its sighted in correctly.

Probably the most important thing is to get your gun sighted in for long range shooting (2" high at 200 yards works for me) and then practice at those ranges - both from a bench (to see how the rifle shoots) and from field positions with shooting sticks or other gun supports. Then get your ballistic "path" known - tape it to the gun.....and practice, practice, practice. (Target knobs or a TDS reticle would be nice to have too if you are doing allot of shooting at long ranges.)

Good guns can be made to shoot close groups (1 moa is good) at long range. The shooter is normally the weak link in the chain. With the knowledge of how well the gun will shoot (and where) a good shot can expect to reliably kill critters at quite long ranges. I shoot prairie dogs out to 700 yards quite reliably - when the wind isn't blowing (but this requires a 1/2" moa gun)......and I have no problem with deer size critters out to that range....provided its sighted in right and there are not too many variables present....I am not breathing hard....and yadda yadda.

Also.....whenever possible use the best rest you can find. Learn to use shooting sticks.

Long range.....it isn't for everybody.....and it takes a good gun, good ammo, knowledge, and practice.

OH....and a range finder......absolutely positively required to be able to take shots at those ranges. I own a Lieca...and its a good one. Have not investigated them lately.

In your quest for long range shooting......I hope your prepared to spend some money....lol.

Very good advice. Bolt action and lots of practice. The long range stuff isn't for everyone but for those who do their homework and have the ability, it is the ultimate in hunting. You will have to spend some time and money getting your loads sorted out. A 30-06 might be a good choice. There have probably been more loads developed for this cartridge than any other 30 cal in history.

I have killed more deer and bear with my 308 than any other gun I own, but none of the shots were very challenging.

The 308 is a fine cartridge but I have been told by enthusiasts that the 30-06 can be loaded to carry a lot more mail at long distances.

Myself, I would need a 50 cal. 22# rifle and a 2000# concrete block to rest it on to make a 400 yard kill shot. Not likely to happen for me

 

[Tororider]

The deer population in my state is estimated at 400,000. About 80,000 harvested each year with 50-60,000 taken by rifle. The population of deer continues to grow despite greater and greater restrictions on bucks and the issuing of more permits. The number of car/deer accidents climbs every year. The DNR is considering going to doe only permits or strictly reducing the number of bucks harvested. As a land owner, I can hunt up to 7 deer/year counting rifle, bow, and black powder. As a land owner, I can get a rifle permit for 2 deer (one buck and one doe or 2 does). I can turn those deer in and then get another permit for 2 more deer. Each permit costs $14. Who is going to consume 7 deer/year?

If you like the hunting part of it have you looked into any organizations that would accept your extra venison to help feed the poor and less fortunate? I think one is Hunters for the Hungry, and any local food bank might accept it if you ask. Just a thought.

 

[studor]

Radman - before you decide to "spend some money" look up maximum point blank range tables (MPBR) for the various calibers you are thinking about. What you will discover is that the effective range at which you can point the gun at a deer and pull the trigger without worrying about a lot of other factors does not vary all that greatly between modern centre fire rounds. The .308 in a Model 70 (even post 64 ejector type) is a great foundation for very accurate shooting. I bet a little tweaking of the bedding and load experiments would make it a tack driver if it is MOA now. Get yourself a gong (piece of 1/2 in plate roughly the size of a dinner plate) and a sturdy stand to hang it from and try it at 200, 300 and 400 yards. You will find from a good rest it is not that hard to hit. Sounds like you can shoot almost as many deer as I can shoot groundhogs (but my self imposed rule is I can only shoot the ones I can see and shoot at safetly from the porch) JMHO

 

[foggy1111]

Radman - before you decide to "spend some money" look up maximum point blank range tables (MPBR) for the various calibers you are thinking about. What you will discover is that the effective range at which you can point the gun at a deer and pull the trigger without worrying about a lot of other factors does not vary all that greatly between modern centre fire rounds. The .308 in a Model 70 (even post 64 ejector type) is a great foundation for very accurate shooting. I bet a little tweaking of the bedding and load experiments would make it a tack driver if it is MOA now. Get yourself a gong (piece of 1/2 in plate roughly the size of a dinner plate) and a sturdy stand to hang it from and try it at 200, 300 and 400 yards. You will find from a good rest it is not that hard to hit. Sounds like you can shoot almost as many deer as I can shoot groundhogs (but my self imposed rule is I can only shoot the ones I can see and shoot at safetly from the porch) JMHO

Good Advice here. A great site with tables on popular cartridges is the Chuck Hawks site. He has good, common sense articles on most gun topics of interest. Much better than what your gonna get here. (put his name and max point blank range in google and do a search for a good article on it).

Truth is....most popular "deer cartridges" will deliver a bullet within three inches of the point of aim out to 300 yards....when sighted in properly. This being the case.....most popular guns can be made to be effective to 300 yards without changing your "hold" (point of aim) on the deer.

Now if you adjust your aimpoint on the animal from 1/3 up (short range) though top of the back.....you can extend that range to 400 yards or more quite easily....using the same sight-in. The trick is knowing the range (precisely) AND having a good solid rest to shoot from. THUS.....PRACTICE WITH IMPROVISED RESTS OR SHOOTING STICKS IS REQUIRED.......as is a range finder.

Shooting at long range without knowledge and experience is taboo.

 

[Specop_007]

Truth is....most popular "deer cartridges" will deliver a bullet within three inches of the point of aim out to 300 yards....when sighted in properly. This being the case.....most popular guns can be made to be effective to 300 yards without changing your "hold" (point of aim) on the deer.

Well, not quite 3 inches but for the most part I agree

http://www.hornady.com/images/ballistics/ballistics_charts.pdf

 

[wampum]

Around here a 30/30 is a good deer rifle. I say that because there is a lot of hunting around here is brush hunting,its lite and usually you do not get a shot over 75 yards. Back in 1971 I bought my 270,its a good all around gun,the 270 is my basic rifle,I have shot deer over 300 yards around here,but only a couple of times. From my stand I can shoot up to 300 yards but most shots happen around 50 yards. But the 270 will reach out,with accuracy and touch them if needed. I have hunted out west since 1971(when I bought my 270) and hunting out west is a whole different ball game. I have never shot at an animal over 350 yards,but I have seen others make very good shots at 500 yards. When I started hunting Elk all I had was my 270,a 270 will take down an elk,and many elk have been brought down by them. About 15 years ago I got a great buy on a Weatherby 300 mag. that a guy won in a raffle. This is a great gun,I use it mainly for elk,it will also reach out and touch them. I feel more comfortable with it on elk. It just seems to mess their day up a little more. Another gun I use around here only when I am on a deer drive is my Marlin 444,this gun is as easy to use as a 30/30 but packs a bigger punch. Its a great brush gun. Every one has their favorites,what ever you like is usually best for you. Different conditions,may help you if you use a different gun.

 

[studor]

Well, not quite 3 inches but for the most part I agree

Ballistics charts are a little different than MPBR charts -- the Hornady charts are for a 200 yard zero and by and large in most cases if you have say a 3 inch high sighting at 100 yards the zero point is increased and you will stay well within the vitals of a deer for a dead on hold out to about the 300 yard mark. The big advantage I have found with this method is I use the thick part of the scope cross hairs to help me judge the distance to the animal. Since I know how many inch they cover at various ranges, I know when I am looking at a "hail Mary" shot. I have a range finder for bow hunting but do not use it for rifle anymore. When I am at the range I almost always see deer hunters sight their guns in for zero at 100 yards which does not take best advantage of the ballistics capabilities of their guns. In most cases it will not matter but for that occasional over 200 yard shot that presents itself it is worth it. Again -- JMHO

 

[BruceWard]

308 has plenty of power for deer at 400 yards. Typically 1000 foot pounds of energy is considered to be sufficient for an ethical kill of a white tail deer. Some rifles like the 223 / 5.56 AR-15 are often used to hunt white tail and barely have this much energy at the muzzle. Most 308 ammo will be above 1000 foot pounds of energy beyond 500 yards and some heavier bullets will maintain that energy beyond 800 yards.

Shooters with 308 rifles have won more 1000 yard shooting events than any other caliber so the 308 is certainly accurate at long range.

The trajectory varies significantly based on the weight and shape of the bullet. Lighter bullets are better at close distance, heavier (longer sleeker) bullets maintain more energy and a more accurate trajectory over distance.

I have hunted with a DPMS LR-308 for the past two years. Before that I hunted with a Remington 700 243 for the previous 20 years. With both rifles I was able to find ammunition and the correct range to sight it in to be able to shoot deer from 0 to 300 yards without worrying about shooting high or low. For exampe with the 308 I have it sighted in at a little over 250 yards. At 100 yards it is shooting about 4 inches high and at 300 yards it is about 6 inches low. At 400 yards it is about 20 inches low so I would need to aim high at that distance. I have either paced off the distance to various items I can see from the stand or used google earth to measure the distance so I have a good chance of accurately judging the distance.

The ammo I am using is Federal P308F 150 gran Nosler Ballistic Tip Federal Premium - Rifle Details . I chose it for a flat shooring in the 0 to 300 yard range I primarily hunt at. Even at 500 yards this round has more energy than a 243 has at 250 yards.

I have killed deer at over 400 yards with a 243 and my father and brother have done so many times with a 25-06. The 308 has greater energy so even though I have not yet had the chance for such a long range shot with my 308 I would not hesitate to take the shot.

I consider 400 yards to be about as far as I would want to shoot deer with the P308F. If I was going to hunt further I woulw switch to a similar bullet in 180 or 208 grains. The sleeker adn heavier bullet would maintain greater energy and have less wind drift.

There is an excellent ballistic calculator available online at JBM - Calculations - Trajectory (Simplified) . You can use it to calculate the bullets trajectory beyond the distances published by the manufacturer. I use to determine what distance I want to sight my rifle in at.