Rifle advice

[RobertN]

Yes and no. In my previous post, I also thought the 308 might be ok to 400 yards. But, it depends on bullets and type. While 308 does excellent on the 1000 yard range, it does not mean it has the energy at 400 yards to properly expand a bullet on game.

a 150gr speer BTSP has an average load of about 2550fps per the Speer loading book. With a BC of 0.412, it has 41" of drop at 400 yards.

I browsed thru my Speer book for a minute, but did not find the bullet energy info for any of their 308 loads, nor info on velocity required for expansion. Will have to look more later.

You are right on the money about time on the bench. I like to get some practice at 3 position shooting too; very seldom have aI found a bench i the field

No reason a 308 cant be good out to 400 yds..you just need to practice those yardages before you expect to be proficient hunting at those yardages...No switch to any caliber is going to make you more accurate at those kinds of ranges, it's more of a "lifestyle change" approach to your shooting that needs to occur, not a caliber change. Yardage estimation, wind estimation, steady hold, shot timing, all those things you have to be excellent at when you shoot those yardages.

I don't think a caliber change is going to give you the results you're looking for. If you're looking for an excuse to acquire a new smokepole, then by all means I'm for it.

But you gotta do your homework as far as testing the loads and testing your skills before you take it hunting.

 

[Specop_007]

I'll say whats been said a bit for forthright....

Its not the rifle, its the shooter. Every rifle drops. Flatter shooting cartridges simply extend the distance one can shoot without intimate knowledge of their rifle. Understand though this isnt necessarily a bad thing. At longer hunting ranges the incorrect estimate of 50 yards is the difference between a good shot and a wounded animal or a complete miss. So having a flatter shooting round does give some additional wiggle room in terms of errors in judgement which is always a good thing.

Even worse is the addition of wind. To your example a 10 mph crosswind at 400 yards will drift a 308 bullet and average of 12 inches. 100 yards more becomes a drift of over 20 inches. Thats nearly 2 FEET of drift at 500 yards. And thats even assuming you pull the trigger at an honest 10 mph crosswind and not a 15 or 18....AND that the crosswind is steady across the range and not 10 at shooter position and your bullet hits a 25 mph gust halfway there.

The only surefire answer to your question is proficiency with your weapon. Practice, practice practice. Not only that but record the data. Zero at 100, shoot up to 3-500 and record bullet drop. Then shoot at those ranges with a measures crosswind to understand how that affects the drift. There simply is no rifle or bullet combination that eliminates the need to be familiar with your weapon.

To your other point a semi can be every bit as accurate and effective as a bolt. Its simply personal preference.

EDIT:
I'm going to clarify my last sentence just to save me headaches.
For 99% of the shooters in this world AND 99% of the rifles the difference between a semi and a bolt will make not one whit of difference to the accuracy of the weapon. If you get a shooter who is in the top echelons of shooting and give him a absolute top tier weapon he might be able to sit down and print paper to show you the difference in accuracy between the two however.

 

[radman1]

I agree, the 400 yard shot was foolish with the zero experience at that range and in those conditions. It revealed to me, I need to spend the time with the gun at a range rather than a couple of weekends a year. I did small game hunting with iron sites prior to this gun. Heck, I thought that 4x fixed scope was magic compared to iron sites. I make my teenage boys only hunt with iron sites at this time. The 14x of the newer scope gave me false hope and there are way to many other factors to consider at longer ranges. The wind was mostly in my face. Are there compensation charts for BD if the wind is in front of or behind a bullet?

Like someone else stated, I wouldn't shoot a running deer, even with an auto. Frankly, I don't see why people even try. I think my chance at 400 yards (with practice, right load and gun) is higher than any running deer. However, I think the auto will allow me to track a deer much better if I don't get that initial kill shot. Again, that may be in part due to my shot gun and small caliber rifle auto experience and inexperience with bolt action rifle. Hunting in my area is some trees/brush but many relatively open areas. My experience with smaller game, deer and hunting with others who have rifles leads me to believe a second quick shot is useful and lacking in most rifle hunters. If the first shot is not a kill, the quarry may often get up and stand breifly before it runs or may run a short distance and stop to see what is behind it. That is why I lean toward the auto. I believe most hunters shoot, take their eye off the scope, change the bolt to reload and then try to reacquire the target. It takes too long to relocate the target through a scope and the chase is now on. My BIL who has hunted deer, pronghorn, elk ect. had this exact senario happen this fall. We were walking to a potential site for hunting in 2010. (Idiot me makes the cardinal sin of not bringing my gun.)We spook a nice doe, he shoots, it flips backwards, falls hard and I thought it was dead. Few moments later it is up stands for a few seconds and then gone. Tracked it and ran after it for over half a mile. Shot it again just as it was going into a corn field. I don't know if we ever would have found it had it made it into the corn field.

The sheer power of bigger bore rifles and range compared to a shot gun makes me extra cautious when hunting with rifle. I hunt most of the time from different stands. Always shooting downward. Even on the ground, I try to maintain a backstop for the bullet if it goes through or if I miss.

 

[WTA]

A semi auto can easily do 400 yards. I hunt with an M14 and do it all the time. In fact that is a close one around here for me. There is nothing to hide behind here for close shots. I practice these days on prairie dogs out to 1000 yards with my rifle. It's a 308 cal too BTW. It's all the bullet anyone needs in this country. I use a barnes X bullet 168 grain for big game and a 175 grain cast bullet I make myself for turkeys and other small stuff. It's the only rifle I use for hunting and I am very good with it. Just get one rifle and get good with it.
The key to using it humanely and safely is practice practice and more practice.
This is the rifle I have been using since the 80's when commies and pirates were the target. Now it's just prairie dogs and other critters. I'm very good with it.

 

[archerm3]

Are there compensation charts for BD if the wind is in front of or behind a bullet?

.

Yes there are, basically you are changing your bullet velocity by the vectored amount of wind parallel to the trajectory, then you have the crosswind factor for that amount of wind perpendicular to the trajectory. Best is to make your own table with you're particular rifle and bullet and muzzle velocity.

Kinda sucks doesn't it, shooting a rifle much past 200 yds turns into a bunch of work....or play, depending...

All of my rifles have logbooks and never leave home without em...

 

[Egon]

Like someone else stated, I wouldn't shoot a running deer, even with an auto. Frankly, I don't see why people even

My Father once shot a running deer at 900 yds, yes 900 yds. with a bolt action Lee Enfield .303. There were witnesses. At least four if my memory is correct.

Hunting and shooting off a bench are two different things. You need the bench to adjust the sights, be they iron or scope and to find out out what happens at a distance. In the hunting field all things learned at the bench have to come into play automatically. There is no calculating etc..

Several of my Grandmothers brothers routinely shot moose out to 500 yds. with open or peep sights and 30-06 bolt actions. I have been told they seldom missed.

Unfortunately there skills were not passed on to me.

 

[radman1]

Kinda sucks doesn't it, shooting a rifle much past 200 yds turns into a bunch of work....or play, depending...

All of my rifles have logbooks and never leave home without em...

I agree. After 300 yards, lots of factors come into play for targets. Even the big 50 caliber Barret 107 used by snipers is really designed for hitting large targets like cars, trucks etc at those very long distances and they have a spotter. And yet, the Barrett 107 is semiauto and the potential of explosive tipped ammo helps!

 

[studor]

With the greatest respect I would ask if you wish to shoot better or hunt better?
There was a time when my quest for the best thousand yard rifle led me to put a lot of lead downrange with a lot of very nice rifles that were highly accurate. The first big game rifle I ever owned was a BAR in 30.06 because I am left handed and felt that you needed that fast second shot hunting deer. I have hit game at distances that in retrospect I should not have tried -- it taught me to be much more cognizant of safety and that even a blind chicken gets a piece of corn now and then
I ask the question because I now view the situation somewhat differently. I no longer see the need to shoot something in the next county that I have seen by accident and not intent and cannot get any closer to because of a lack of hunting skills. I frequently carry a single shot rifle and although I still own the BAR it is not even close to my gun of choice for deer hunting these days. I get very worried if a hunting companion shows up with an assault rifle or claims to consistently shoot game at ranges that require a ballistics table taped to the stock, wind flags and a spotter
Just me, but I get a real kick out of having the quarry not know I am there. These days I would brag more about tossing acorns on a does head than killing the big buck that shows up at the edge of my meadow when I am on the porch a thousand yards away. The fact is just about any modern centre fire in the deer class will kill at four hundred yards if hit in the right spot. The past couple of years I have shot respectable bucks at less than 100 yards by practicing my hunting skills instead of my shooting skills --
All of the advice so far may be valid (although I can guarantee some inaccuracies around semi autos). If you want to shoot at long range you need a good weapon and practice---if you want to shoot a trophy buck you need to study the animal, spend time in the field and wait for the opportunity. They are not mutually exclusive but they are also not automatically inclusive JMHO

 

[RobertN]

USMC Gunnery Sargent Hathcock took out an enemy combatant at a little over 2250 yards, with a Browning machine gun fired "semi-auto". It did take him two shots though... 2250 yards with only an 8x fixed power scope.

A Canadian team made a longer shot in Afghanistan.

US Army used the M14 as a sniper rifle. It is still in use today(XM21).

The AR platform has been really making the grade with exceptional HBAR tack drivers. Like that Grendell round.

The M14 and M1 have always had excellent accuracy, albeit they have always been really heavy too.

That being said, I am still a fan of a heavy barrel bolt rifle for long range shooting, or a Savage 99 lever action(300 Savage) for shorter ranges. I wouldn't mind getting a Texas Brigade recreation of Hathcock's M70 with Lyman or Unertl scope, the one he used for most of his action in Vietnam.

Texas Brigade Armory - AR-15 Option

Even the big 50 caliber Barret 107 used by snipers is really designed for hitting large targets like cars, trucks etc at those very long distances and they have a spotter. And yet, the Barrett 107 is semiauto and the potential of explosive tipped ammo helps!

 

[radman1]

With the greatest respect I would ask if you wish to shoot better or hunt better?
JMHO

The answer, is both. I hunt landowner. I have 1200 acres but vast majority is crop and some pasture land. The best hunting land probably covers 40 acres and includes a strip of land along a creek over a distance of 1/2 mile but not a contigious area of hunting over that distance. Open fields on both sides but crop will vary from year to year. Mostly corn/soybeans but some cattle pasture. The best spot is an area of spring fed creek in the middle of a section. Relatively isolated and there is a natural funnel for wildlife through this area. I have 2 neighbors who also hunt on areas boardering both ends of my land. We don't have any issues if one shoots on the edges of the other's property for deer since the deer traverse the same areas. I used to let people hunt on my property but that stopped several years ago. I would let someone hunt, they would bring their buddy, next time the buddy comes on his own, next year it was the buddy (who didn't ask) with another friend ect. I had one guy who hunted on the edge of my land for probably several years in a pop up blind. The owners lived 1500 miles away and the guys who rented the land didn't know who he was. He had definitely been shooting on my sides and my neighbors for years according to my neighbor but he thought I had let him. Had to put my stand in the same corner for 2 years. Told him each year good luck with his hunting but don't shoot on my side although he was 50 feet from my stand. I would shoot my deer in the first 1-2 days. Then I would park my stinky, oil dripping Farmall M tractor near the same corner for the rest of the hunting week. By the 3rd year, my old buddy was gone.

Because of the openess of the sides, the deer feed in the fields which change from year to year. I know the area well because the range is limited and I have lived around there for most of my life. I planted grass and alfalfa food plots but with all the corn it probably doesn't help. I watch the rubs, animal trails and movements. I share info with the neighbors who hunt and live there full time. I claim to be no deer expert, but know my area fairly well. Half of my shots are in the fields and half are in the woods or near the edge of the woods. In talking with other deer hunters, the vast majority of shots are near or under 100 yards and I agree with that statement. However, the more wiley and older deer seem to stay in the CRP land and fields in the better weather. This makes the possibility of a longer shot (+300 yards) not out of the question. The deer here taste like very lean beef because they are basically corn fed. Even the meat of the old bucks taste quite good when mixed with a little beef.

The deer population in my state is estimated at 400,000. About 80,000 harvested each year with 50-60,000 taken by rifle. The population of deer continues to grow despite greater and greater restrictions on bucks and the issuing of more permits. The number of car/deer accidents climbs every year. The DNR is considering going to doe only permits or strictly reducing the number of bucks harvested. As a land owner, I can hunt up to 7 deer/year counting rifle, bow, and black powder. As a land owner, I can get a rifle permit for 2 deer (one buck and one doe or 2 does). I can turn those deer in and then get another permit for 2 more deer. Each permit costs $14. Who is going to consume 7 deer/year?