Recognizing stolen equipment ???

/pine · Oct 7, 2019

Industrial Toys said:
Pawn shops are an interesting case. Like where do they think much of the stuff comes from?

I guess if you can even get to see work orders, with the machine listed, as well as the sellers name, that would go a long way to assure me. Criminals aren't big on documenting stuff.

Many may not realize this but most pawn shop owners have close working relationships with the local police force or sheriff's dept...

cathy liebchen · Oct 7, 2019

skipperbrown said:
My good friend's son in law bought a John Deere cab tractor and got a very, very good deal on it. It was a monster unit. Anyway, after owning it for a few months, he gets a letter from John Deere Credit stating the tractor is going to be repossessed for nonpayment of note. Seems the original owner didn't pay off the lien when he sold it. So this poor son in law is in a mess. The seller claims it's all just a mistake (and the buyer's money has been spent) and JD Credit is threatening legal action. An UCC lien check would have noted a lien on the tractor, but only financial institutions can run a check and don't like running it for some nut wanting to buy a tractor. It is still playing out, but it looks like the son in law is going to lose the tractor and will have to take legal action against the seller who is now broke. He will be out thousands before hiring an attorney. Even if the kid had run a lien check it naturally would have shown a lien as part or all of the purchase price would go to pay off the lien AFTER the sale. I'm not sure how the buyer could have protected himself.

Anyone can get a UCC search, they are filed where the owner debtor resides. If you know of the lien, you close with a lender payoff. This buyer could have protected himself by knowing what he was doing

Industrial Toys · Oct 7, 2019

My dad once had dead beat tenants living here, that we later learned, tried to sell our tractor to neighbours. Desperate people do desperate things.

Ken · Oct 7, 2019

There is a quick and legal method to get whatever is desired. At a pedigreed Holstein cattle sale. watched a buyer purchase 12 head of cows and loaded his Ohio trailer .The amount of close to 100 thousand bucks. check verified with bank as legal and left the sale. before he returned to his place of business was a lawyers office. and declared bankruptcy .
When the check bounced owner found out ,Could not touch or in any way bother the theif had full goverment protection
we stopped at his barn about 6 months later and he called sherrif who told us to get off property and not return.or we would be cited for disturbance.illegal entry . the cattle died of old age and still no payment .
2nd example. a person i knew had business of hydroseeding large areas Golf coarses and highway right of wayss. One eveniong came to my home with sad story of his equipment and truck stolen from work area. wanted to borrow money to purchase new truck and hydroseeder equipment and when insurance paid he would return. except visited a lawyer and bankruptcy blocked any attempt to recover the money.
Judge kindly explained I coud do nothing to hinder his activities. or attempt to recover any money. legalized theft backed by our legal system.
This is in total close to 200 thousand bucks just my experance. Now look in daily news papers of bankruptcy and see how many is being made.
My Father repeatly said never trust a Lawyer or Banker and watch the Judges . and if talking together some one is losing his money.

arits74 · Oct 7, 2019

i bought a new john deere tractor in 2006,paid the dealer in full for it.a couple months go by and dealer calls and says he needs to pick it up to do warranty work on hydraulic system.he was really insisting on picking it up that day.it was locked up in my shop and i was 50 miles away so they came the next day and picked it up.long story short he had been selling tractors and not paying john deere for them.they shut him down a few months later and took all his inventory to other dealers.he picked up my tractor and another customers that i know to put them back in stock because john deere was coming to visit and check his stock.after they shut him down a john deere investigator came to my house asking me all about my purchase and dealing with this dealer.he would not tell me much but i already knew what was going on.he did tell me i would not lose my tractor.this was a place that had been in business for many years.

MossRoad · Oct 7, 2019

Diggin It said:
I don't want the state in my business, but I don't want somebody else's business in my business either.

Acme sells a specialty big bux widget to Bubba, who sells it BobbyJo two years later who sells it to me another three years later. I have a receipt showing paid in full and so does BobbyJo. I take it in for service at Acme and they tell me Bubba wigged out and I ow owe big bux.

Phooey on that. Acme can go after Bubba or whizz up a rope. They got no call to come after me or BobbyJo. Neither one of us had a contract with Acme promising to pay them a dime.

Acme bought and paid for politicians to write those kinds of laws.

Bubba steals your car, and sells it to BobbyJo. BobbyJo goes to register it, and finds out it belongs to you. Your thinking says BobbyJo gets to keep your car. Can't you see that???

MossRoad · Oct 7, 2019

Richard said:
Not related to original post....but not unrelated either...

Couple years ago, bought a new Stihl pole saw. Something like $700 I think?

Used it ONCE to trim something. Went out to use it the second time and ended up at neighbors house, leaving pole saw in my backhoe which was parked on the (dead end) road and we (about 5 of us) were standing about 150 feet away from the backhoe. Truck drove into the area.... came out and when they left, I noticed my pole saw in the back of their truck.

Called Sheriff but got out here too late.

Since it was brand new, I went home, got my receipt which had the serial number on it.

About a year later, got a call from the police.... my saw had shown up at a pawn shop about an hour away. The "seller" of it had violated his probation so I could wait through the court process & get it back afterwards OR, drive there to pay them $150 to reimburse them their fee to him.

I drove the next day & got it.

Couple months later, I got a county (state?) check in the mail which happened to be the reimbursement of the $150 that they must have fined him so in the end, I got things back.

When this began, I specifically told the detective that I do NOT want to know who the perp was...... because if he ended up floating in the lake, I wanted as much ignorance of him as possible lest someone look my way for his demise.

(didn't happen)

I can see where the pawn shop was in a quandry..... it's not fair they're out the money (they should have caught it prior to buying it) but, it's not fair that I had to buy it again (not knowing if I'd get reimbursed or not)

But it wasn't a $30,000 item either, ouch.

That kinda makes sense. The pole saw was evidence in the pawn shop case. So they were going after the seller. You pay what they want back out of the seller, and they drop the case. You get the evidence. You'd have gotten the saw eventually, you just sped up the process. It that about the way it went?

Diggin It · Oct 7, 2019

MossRoad said:
Bubba steals your car, and sells it to BobbyJo. BobbyJo goes to register it, and finds out it belongs to you. Your thinking says BobbyJo gets to keep your car. Can't you see that???

Nope. There was no legal transaction there to begin with.

MossRoad · Oct 7, 2019

Diggin It said:
Nope. There was no legal transaction there to begin with.

Bubba stole the widget by not paying it off. It's not his to sell. That's illegal to begin with.

nards444 · Oct 8, 2019

Diggin It said:
With a reasonable question, they'd rather do a VIN Inspection than a stolen property or fraud report and investigation.

yes and no. Not saying you cant check with the police. After working in the field I can tell you two things. 1. Something like this they may not bother with, they are actually working most of the time. 2. If they do want to monkey with it there is two issues, 1. what can they reasonably check and using what systems, a VIN check CAN NOT be used in certain systems without a probable cause a reason, a private citizen inquiring on prospective equipment just isnt a reason. And lets say they can or just want to ignore the rules, the item may not be listed as stolen, or they may not have access to all the right systems.

Worth a try but you likely wont get much

nards444 · Oct 8, 2019

Ken said:
There is a quick and legal method to get whatever is desired. At a pedigreed Holstein cattle sale. watched a buyer purchase 12 head of cows and loaded his Ohio trailer .The amount of close to 100 thousand bucks. check verified with bank as legal and left the sale. before he returned to his place of business was a lawyers office. and declared bankruptcy .
When the check bounced owner found out ,Could not touch or in any way bother the theif had full goverment protection
we stopped at his barn about 6 months later and he called sherrif who told us to get off property and not return.or we would be cited for disturbance.illegal entry . the cattle died of old age and still no payment .
2nd example. a person i knew had business of hydroseeding large areas Golf coarses and highway right of wayss. One eveniong came to my home with sad story of his equipment and truck stolen from work area. wanted to borrow money to purchase new truck and hydroseeder equipment and when insurance paid he would return. except visited a lawyer and bankruptcy blocked any attempt to recover the money.
Judge kindly explained I coud do nothing to hinder his activities. or attempt to recover any money. legalized theft backed by our legal system.
This is in total close to 200 thousand bucks just my experance. Now look in daily news papers of bankruptcy and see how many is being made.
My Father repeatly said never trust a Lawyer or Banker and watch the Judges . and if talking together some one is losing his money.

You do realize those are civil matters and not criminal, you could sue, now whether its worth it or you have a leg to stand on is another matter. Now I would sympathize in your case and to a point somewhat agree that those are flat out theft.

The problem with the legal system or what people dont understand is the legal system is designed to be fair and balance, yes I know it can be backwards and often times can favor the wrong party. But in your case' the legal system has no choice but to conclude at the onset that both you the plaintiff and defendant in this case' are both telling the truth, whether you like it or not or think you are right. The investigation/trial will then attempt to see who was right. The legal system isnt perfect but it' set up the way it is for a reason, unfortunately not every single situation is going to be figured out for somebody, even when somebody loses 100k.

In your cases I wouldnt transfer property off a personal check, and wouldnt be loaning 100k to anybody and if I did there would be a contract. IMO if people transfer anything of value without a firm paper trail they are just as wrong.

Diggin It · Oct 8, 2019

nards444 said:
the item may not be listed as stolen, or they may not have access to all the right systems.

Stolen, reported as stolen, entered in NCIC as stolen and entered properly are all different. It's basically a simple database and if things aren't in the right fields, searches won't get results. Theoretically, you could do a VIN Inspection that comes out clean, but still be in a pickle if the owner IDs the machine and has paperwork to submit as proof of ownership. Having to give the machine up is one thing, but facing charges might be another. VIN Inspections aren't logged as such, so you could say 'I asked and they said it wasn't stolen', but would you be able to prove that?

Diggin It · Oct 8, 2019

And remember, there are different levels of proficiency. Neighbors are out of town for a couple of weeks. I spotted people on their property yesterday on a 4 wheeler and called it in. Surprisingly a Deputy actually showed up within a few minutes which was quite unusual. Filled him in and said 'they went that-a-way!' and off he goes. Few minutes later the ATV comes back past with the unit just behind them as he was about to stop them, which he did a ways down the road within site of my place.

They talk for a while as I'm watching from a long distance, then he lets them go and comes back to talk to me. Says they're just young juveniles that were confused and said they lived just down the road (pointed in a direction), but he didn't get their names or anything. I told him I know every house and the people in them for the next 3 miles and they don't live in any of them. He gets wide eyed and says .... "I better go catch up to them again ..."

ATVs aren't allowed on paved County roads to begin with and Juveniles aren't supposed to be riding them. This was three on one machine, no helmets who had been reported for suspicious activity and trespassing on private property. Why wouldn't he ID them and take them home to their parents?

nards444 · Oct 8, 2019

Diggin It said:
Stolen, reported as stolen, entered in NCIC as stolen and entered properly are all different. It's basically a simple database and if things aren't in the right fields, searches won't get results. Theoretically, you could do a VIN Inspection that comes out clean, but still be in a pickle if the owner IDs the machine and has paperwork to submit as proof of ownership. Having to give the machine up is one thing, but facing charges might be another. VIN Inspections aren't logged as such, so you could say 'I asked and they said it wasn't stolen', but would you be able to prove that?

Think we are saying the same thing. End of the day checking with LE is a crap shoot. I do know with NCIC and such you cant just search for fun, and searching for a VIN on something for a buyer would be for fun, unless the buyer had some information to warrant such a search.

Ken · Oct 8, 2019

nards444 said:
You do realize those are civil matters and not criminal, you could sue, now whether its worth it or you have a leg to stand on is another matter. Now I would sympathize in your case and to a point somewhat agree that those are flat out theft.

The problem with the legal system or what people dont understand is the legal system is designed to be fair and balance, yes I know it can be backwards and often times can favor the wrong party. But in your case' the legal system has no choice but to conclude at the onset that both you the plaintiff and defendant in this case' are both telling the truth, whether you like it or not or think you are right. The investigation/trial will then attempt to see who was right. The legal system isnt perfect but it' set up the way it is for a reason, unfortunately not every single situation is going to be figured out for somebody, even when somebody loses 100k.

In your cases I wouldnt transfer property off a personal check, and wouldnt be loaning 100k to anybody and if I did there would be a contract. IMO if people transfer anything of value without a firm paper trail they are just as wrong.

Mostly commented because of so many posting of theft of property. then getting the legal profession involved. Have found out if deputy or sheriff never seen the theft you have lost anyway. Have spent money to have the lawyer say going to Chapter 11 and he doesn't deal with a lost cause.
thanks for your posting. ken

nards444 · Oct 8, 2019

Ken said:
Mostly commented because of so many posting of theft of property. then getting the legal profession involved. Have found out if deputy or sheriff never seen the theft you have lost anyway. Have spent money to have the lawyer say going to Chapter 11 and he doesn't deal with a lost cause.
thanks for your posting. ken

Not entirely true either. If somebody breaks into my house an officer doesn't have to see that. What you are talking about is again civil. You willing gave somebody something and they didn't pay you back that in the eyes of the law is not theft, its not honoring a contract thus is civil. Theft at its basic is taking something without somebody s knowledge. I know it sucks, but like I said before dont have things on paper and in firm hard contracts you lost the second somebody gave you something, no agreement in place there's really no room to complain later, hand shake agreements dont count. Like others have said going after somebody that is broke is a lost cause. You still have have avenues of getting judgements slapped on them from small claims or even possible judgements in bankruptcy's etc, nothing may ever come of it, but at least its there. What you are talking about could borderline into fraud which is criminal, its possible.

Fuddy1952 · Oct 8, 2019

It all boils down to in every case you're much better off not trusting, i.e., assume the check is no good or they will stop payment, assume item is stolen, assume the other party will bankrupt, etc. Be prepared and prepare appropriately.
I learned that the hard way having a business many years ago.

Fuddy1952 · Oct 8, 2019

Also wanted to mention the contractor who has built lots of things for me, garage, roof, recently a horse stable requires 10% down when contract is signed...before any work done. Then 30% after about that much work, then 30%, then upon completion final 30%. That should help anyone doing large jobs for others. Most you could have problem with is that final draw.
In business I had a "lady" try to rip me off...she never appeared in court, etc. One phone call said I can't get blood out of a turnip. I said but I can put a turnip in jail.
One day for whatever reason property lien popped in my head, so I got one. Few days later I get call from police, "We're at her house with a truck, what do you want us to get?" I hear her screaming in background "please let me talk to him!!!".
I said "If you're here with cash in 15 minutes...I'll ask police to leave". I asked police if they could wait.
She shows up 10 minutes later, cash in hand, sweating profusely. "Please call police at my house!!!".
She paid me+my lost court time+interest.
What a hoot!

mred2 · Oct 8, 2019

At a shop of our's, had a man that needed a tractor fixed. Axle was bad. We gave him price on a new one. He said that was too much, but he had another axle in another tractor. He got it and we put it in. Charged the labor to his account. 90 days later no money. At about 110 days he brings the tractor back and said that the axle is out again. He wants it fixed under warranty. We explained that the part was his and there was no warranty. Gave him a price to fix it, he agreed. We fixed the tractor. He wanted to pick it up. We told him, we would have to have payment for him to pick it up. He came with check in hand. We loaded the tractor and he pulled out on the highway. Down to road, he called and told us he had already done a stop payment on the check that morning.