PTO Generator

Soundguy · Dec 1, 2004

( Soundguy, what do you figure you're getting per HP out of your Northern unit? )

So far I've only run it with my ford 8n.. and the engine is probably 26hp NEW.. mine is 52 years old.. so I'm gonna guess I have 20hp at the pto accounting for age and losses.. and that's a safe conservative number. So far, under good heavy loads.. like table saws.. good inductive loads, it has carried it nicely. However.. I don't think I've loaded it past 9000w.

While the fellow certaintly could get the northern 8.5kw unit to perfectly match his tractor, and save a couple hundred bucks.. I'd also go with the 12/13 k unit. for one, it lets you move up to a larger tractor later, or allows for you borrowing a larger tractor.. it also keeps you from running the genny at max capacity ( though it should run at max capacity fine ).. In other words.. a 12.5k genny run at 8.5k seems like it would last longer than an 8.5k run at 8.5k.. not to mention, the 125.k being used as an 8.5k would have one heck of a 'surge' capability..

Soundguy

Soundguy · Dec 1, 2004

( Does anyone know where I can get a freq. meter to add on to it ?? )

You can buy a vom with a freq meter, or a dedicated freq counter.

The vom with freq function vary in price and capability. Most of the cheaper ones only accept a low voltage signal.. say like 10v, etc. What you would have to do is build an attenuating bridge out of say 11 10k resistors, and then take the measurement across one of them.. have this referenced to one of the 12v outlets. You could rig all this up on a breadboard and install a small power cord, and just have the two reference contacts visible for testing. Or you could buy a more expensive meter, say in the 80-90$ range.. most of them have input voltage tolerances in the 200+ v range.. so doing a freq measurement on the 12ov side should be fine. Also.. some meters allow you to have a floating leg, and only use one probe for the freq measurement.. some use both leads. kinda depends on your equipment.

I have a decent meter with freq on it, and was happy to see the northern unit is as acurate as my home power.

Soundguy

Westonium · Dec 1, 2004

( I just didn't want to fry a computer or the TV by not getting the gen dialed in just right)

Get a small UPS for your computer. It will use the battery as a capacitor and "clean" the electricity going in. I'll probably stick one on the TV as well as a CYA. I know that pretty much everthing else can handle the power being a little bit dirty.

chriswheeler · Dec 1, 2004

While the price of a PTO unit looks attractive, my vote is for a dedicated unit. ( engine and gen set ) I work and maintain these things large ( 2 meg @ 4160 volts with V20 Detroit 3000 hp) and small portables. A PTO generator costs $1000-$1500 less in the 12 KW household size but lacks many of the features that can make a big difference when it comes time to use it. The user of a typical ( non code installed ) PTO gen set will open the main disconnect to the house and jumper from the 220 plug in the generator to a 220 plug in the house and back feed the system. Not legal, not a wise setup for household safety, but the most offten used sustem. If the house has propane anyway, Why not step out and get one of those little self enclosed Generac sets that have the auto transfer/start up switch built in?? Usualy the start up delay can be set back 30 seconds or so to eliminate start up at power bumps. Keep the propane tank at least half filled in the storm season and you should be able to run this thing for weeks and still heat the house. Most often I do need my tractor for clean up after and don't want it tied up to a generator. Diesel and gas sets have exercise issues with load banking required and problems with load stacking ( diesel) or old gas. Propane eliminates this problem. A safe power transfer when the utilities quit, and a safe transfer back to the utility when power returns. Yes it is quite a bit extra money, but it gets my vote.
Chris

LBrown59 · Dec 1, 2004

( While the price of a PTO unit looks attractive, my vote is for a dedicated unit. ( engine and gen set ) I work and maintain these things large ( 2 meg @ 4160 volts with V20 Detroit 3000 hp) and small portables. A PTO generator costs $1000-$1500 less in the 12 KW household size but lacks many of the features that can make a big difference when it comes time to use it. The user of a typical ( non code installed ) PTO gen set will open the main disconnect to the house and jumper from the 220 plug in the generator to a 220 plug in the house and back feed the system. Not legal, not a wise setup for household safety, but the most offten used sustem. If the house has propane anyway, Why not step out and get one of those little self enclosed Generac sets that have the auto transfer/start up switch built in?? Usualy the start up delay can be set back 30 seconds or so to eliminate start up at power bumps. Keep the propane tank at least half filled in the storm season and you should be able to run this thing for weeks and still heat the house. Most often I do need my tractor for clean up after and don't want it tied up to a generator. Diesel and gas sets have exercise issues with load banking required and problems with load stacking ( diesel) or old gas. Propane eliminates this problem. A safe power transfer when the utilities quit, and a safe transfer back to the utility when power returns. Yes it is quite a bit extra money, but it gets my vote.
Chris )
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*I always thought it would neat to have a natural gas generator on a free gas well. This way no gas or electric bills to pay.

Westonium · Dec 2, 2004

( The user of a typical ( non code installed ) PTO gen set will open the main disconnect to the house and jumper from the 220 plug in the generator to a 220 plug in the house and back feed the system. Not legal, not a wise setup for household safety, but the most offten used sustem.)

I would be using a proper transfer switch. There is one already, but it doesn't feed the entire house. The current transfer switch was checked out by an electrician. It was there because the previous owner evidently had a generator backup at one time. It feeds a section of the house (its a mutt house built in several pieces) but not the whole house. I had the main electrical wiring re-consolidated to a new box etc. He allowed for the installation of a transfer switch at the main box.

(
If the house has propane anyway)
The house does NOT have propane, gas, or anything else. The only propane I have is the little tank used for deep-frying turkey /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I am somewhat adverse to getting hooked on yet another fuel that can be manipulated by corporations (cough Enron). IF I already had a big propane tank, a generac would be just fine.

*IF* I can financially justify the installation of propane, I'll do it but that stuff would have to be mega cheap for me to bother. Electricity in California WAS much cheaper and then was slammed with illegal fraudulent price fixing.

I will investigate propane prices just to check my options.

Maybe some day I will have a hydrogen tank and I can retro-fit a generac to it. Hydrogen that is produced as the dump load off of a wind-mill. That would be sweeeet.

RickB · Dec 2, 2004

The fact that I use a PTO standby alternator does not guarantee that my installation is not within code. I do not require an automatic transfer switch to have a safe installation that does not compromise my electrical equipment. Automatic systems are a major convenience, nothing more. Any system can be installed safely and correctly.

djradz · Dec 2, 2004

Although I don't think any improvement of the the PTO-generated power is necessary, most household UPSs won't have an effect anyway. ... unless the UPS is designed as "always in the circuit", because most operate in a "standby" mode. That is, the power supply/battery charger, battery, and inverter, are not used when the power is on. Only when the voltage drops below some threshold do they transfer in and supply voltage. In other words, a voltage source that is high in harmonics (multiples of 60 hz), or a poorly defined waveform, higher or lower than 60 hz, or a little high or low in voltage would not be corrected. Fortuneately, most household appliances, etc, are not significantly affected by any of these. Bottom line is, if you're shopping for a UPS to correct any of this, your likely to spend some significant bucks. I'd suggest just buying a large enough PTO generator that results in none of these problems.

TOMLESCOEQUIP · Dec 2, 2004

Here is a picture of the freq meter from Neals post...........If I could find/locate one like this, I'd lake to add it to my northern units voltmeter so I could monitor both if it's not too cost prohibitive...........Tom

Inspector507 · Dec 2, 2004

Tom,
Here is a digital one that I'm looking at
frequency meter

djradz · Dec 2, 2004

I like that one. Plenty of divisions to get an accurate reading. If it can't hook up to line voltage (240 or 120), possibly a simple little 120 volt power transformer, which would drop the voltage down to the range of 6 to 20 volts (depending on the one selected) could work. I'm talking about something a simple as those that come with all sorts of electronics, from portable cd players to cordless phones to charges for all kinds of little electronic devices. Some of these contain a diode or recitifier that would have to be removed/bypassed, so that you get AC rather than DC out.

TOMLESCOEQUIP · Dec 2, 2004

Nice meter !!..........Inspector.....??.....How is the meter wired in ?? Accross the 110 volt output or is more electrical connecting required ??

djradz · Dec 2, 2004

Tom, here you go. Kind of steep for me though.

http://www.metersusa.com/Crompton/Crompton-AC-panel-meter.htm

Inspector507 · Dec 2, 2004

Tom, you can get them in 110V or 220V.

TOMLESCOEQUIP · Dec 2, 2004

I suppose the $25 or $30 I thought a meter should cost is somewhere in an alternative reality. For a "C" note, I might as well buy a nice multimeter so I can use it on other projects too as well as the genny........................Thanks for the links guys...............Tom

KiotiJohn · Dec 3, 2004

AC power in the US is referred to as 60 cycles per second or 60 Hertz because the current reverses direction 120 times each second, and each pair of reversals is called a cycle.
If you want to measure the cycles being produced, simply use a stop watch while timing an alarm clock plugged into power generated by your generator. One minute on the alarm clock and stop watch means you're getting the 60 cycles. It's a good cheap way to measure. John

Soundguy · Dec 4, 2004

( most household UPSs won't have an effect anyway )

Virtually ALL ups's for sale comercially also do line conditioning. I used to be a dealer for APC equipment. The front end of all of their UPS's contain the equivalent of the filter portion ( though not the multitapped xformer) of their line-r series power conditioners. I'm not talking just simple emi/rfi filtering. There is some sophisticated waveform manipulation goin on. You would be better served with an inverter setup and a high amperage comercial grade battery charger.. like a 10/25/125a roll around model..

Soundguy

Soundguy · Dec 4, 2004

( household size but lacks many of the features that can make a big difference when it comes time to use it. )

I agree with RickB. There is nothing about a pto generator that prevents you using it as a permanent install situation, or with a transfer switch. I know many people with a pto gen in their barn, wired to a manual transfer switch, and they have a hole fut inthe wall, and just pass the pto shaft thru to power it.

Also.. there are steps yo can take to keep from backpowering the grid from your in house hookup..like um.. flipping your main, or pulling your service disconnect.. etc.

These same issues you mentioned also apply to the small self poweredportable jobs as well.

Soundguy

chriswheeler · Dec 6, 2004

I'm sure many people will do the proper install and have a safe setup. Some will not. I have been next to 4 tractor PTO driven setups. Of the 4, only one had a transfer swithch of any kind. The other 3 were used for remote power and when used the house, would feed through a 50 amp welder plug or something line that, and backfeed the system. My main point was that the price of a dedicated unit is getting much closer to the price of a PTO unit . For the safety and convinence of the automatic system, this can be justified if power outages are frequent and water for the house or fire supression comes from a well. A large percentage of rural houses have propane and will already have a fuel supply. There are two negatives , one is higher price, the second is the system is not as portable. I have a little 1800 watt gas portable for that function. ( $375 ) Just my 2 cents worth.
Chris

Westonium · Dec 8, 2004

My mind has been made up. I got a sign of sorts last night. We brought our newborn son home last afternoon, and the first night in the house the power went out. Fortunately this storm wasn't a winter storm and they were able to get the power back on in 3 hours. Had there been the kind of weather they had here last year - it could very easily been much longer. As soon as I finish this message, I am ordering the PTO generator. I will also buy a small generator that is sized to fit the pump at the pumphouse, and build a little generator house for it.

The storm mangled one of the new canopy/tent garages I put up. I staked them properly but evidently it wasn't enough. That was the tent I normally park the new Subaru in, but it was parked close the house to let out mom and son. What luck! I am taking the whole event as a warning from mother nature -
"Look, I know you haven't actually lived this far out in the country before, but you need to respect me just a little more, so I will give you a small demonstration to get your attention so you will consider prevention, and did I mention that if I wanted to I could push your roof right down the floor? Buck up, chin up, gear up and clean up and take this moment of peace to tend to the trees, because for my next trick I will probably demonstrate what I call 'FREEZE'"

I'll post pictures soon. I'll probably post son pics in some new thread as well.

I will not backfeed. I will have a proper transfer switch.

Soundguy: I love the APC line. I have a Back-UPS XS 1500 for my computers and its great.