PTO Generator

fractal · Dec 8, 2004

( My mind has been made up. I got a sign of sorts last night. We brought our newborn son home last afternoon, and the first night in the house the power went out. Fortunately this storm wasn't a winter storm and they were able to get the power back on in 3 hours. Had there been the kind of weather they had here last year - it could very easily been much longer. As soon as I finish this message, I am ordering the PTO generator. I will also buy a small generator that is sized to fit the pump at the pumphouse, and build a little generator house for it. )

I was similarly inspired after Loma Preta back in 91. I went out and bought a small portable generator. I have since been looking at pto gensets.

Turns out that the portable generator has been more than sufficient for my needs. The only thing that has changed since getting the tractor is I carry it in the FEL instead of by hand. I am equally sure that my opinion would change if were were subjected to multi day outtages in foul weather around here.

The one thing I would add to the already extensive discussion here is ... how much fuel do you keep on hand, and how do you store it?

I keep two 5 gallon gerry cans of gasoline in a shed 100 ft from my house. That will run my portable generator for 2-4 days depending on duty cycle. I pour the fuel from them into the minivan and refill them once or twice a year. I also add stabil or the equivalent to the cans. I can also siphon some out of one of the cars. Diesel is another story. I don't store any in the shed. I use 2-3 gallons a year in the tractor so it makes no sense to store any extra. I recently purchased a diesel truck so have an average of 30 gallons in the two tanks. Prior to that a PTO genset would only have been good for a days worth of partial duty cycle before I was out of diesel and no ready supply.

Anyway, please consider your fuel situation as part of your buying decision. A weeks fuel for a PTO genset is something on the order of 30-50 gallons that I would have to "cycle" once or twice a year. I can do that now that I have the diesel truck. Can you?

Westonium · Dec 9, 2004

( I use 2-3 gallons a year in the tractor so it makes no sense to store any extra. I recently purchased a diesel truck so have an average of 30 gallons in the two tanks. Prior to that a PTO genset would only have been good for a days worth of partial duty cycle before I was out of diesel and no ready supply.
)

How in hades are you only using 2-3 gallons a year in your tractor? I use more than that a week!

I currently have 3, 5-gallon containers in various stages of fill. I do not expect to have any real issues with storing diesel in such containers. I suppose I can get organized about it and be sure that I am using the oldest fuel first, but frankly I've not any problems thus far.

If I stored the fuel in a manner that allowed easier water absorbtion, I'd handle things a bit differently, but as it is I am not currently concerned about the fuel aspect. I will probably use a gasoline genny for the pump though. The pump is on a completely different meter and is 650 ft away from the house.

LBrown59 · Dec 9, 2004

( (
Anyway, please consider your fuel situation as part of your buying decision. A weeks fuel for a PTO genset is something on the order of 30-50 gallons that I would have to "cycle" once or twice a year. I can do that now that I have the diesel truck. Can you? )
Get a Gen that runs on Natural gas and you won't have to worry about a fuel supply.

LBrown59 · Dec 9, 2004

( ( I use 2-3 gallons a year in the tractor so it makes no sense to store any extra. I recently purchased a diesel truck so have an average of 30 gallons in the two tanks. Prior to that a PTO genset would only have been good for a days worth of partial duty cycle before I was out of diesel and no ready supply.
)

1*How in hades are you only using 2-3 gallons a year in your tractor? I use more than that a week!

2*If I stored the fuel in a manner that allowed easier water absorbtion, I'd handle things a bit differently, but as it is I am not currently concerned about the fuel aspect. )

1*I wondered that too.

2*Do you filter your fuel?

Westonium · Dec 9, 2004

( Get a Gen that runs on Natural gas and you won't have to worry about a fuel supply. )

As mentioned previously, I only have electric here. No LP or Propane or natural gas of any kind.

Perhaps I could consider it for the pump generator though. It depends on how much storage and propane I'd need to buy to run the thing for a week. Also, I don't know that I've seen propane generators that small.

RCannon · Dec 9, 2004

not to anybody in particular...
How hard on the tractor would it be to run this PTO generator for a 3-4 day power outage?

slowrev · Dec 9, 2004

Propane powered generators require a sizeable tank in order for enough propane to vaporize in cold weather to run them. Just slight disadvantage on propane. However if you have a tank full of propane handy it is not as likely to go offline as natural gas in an earthquake situation, where lines in the gound break. Just some ramblings on the subject.

Ben

Westonium · Dec 9, 2004

I would think that as long as the tractor doesn't overheat, it should be fine. Diesel motors are generally speaking just fine with continuous running. It is common practice for truck drivers to run theirs non-stop except when fueling - including when sleeping etc if it is hot or cold outside.

I just ran some numbers and I think that these are generally true:

* Gasoline generators tend to be 15% quieter (based on dB at 23ft and full load on 5KW gens, 1 Honda, 1 Yanmar)
* Gasoline generators use 45% more fuel per KW - This really shouldn't be that shocking. There is a lot more energy in diesel fuel (btus). This is why there are Mercedes sedans that get 40+mpg

LP and NG will probably tend to have less motor fatigue than either diesel and gasoline. This effect has been proven with all the NG conversions in California. The general rule is that a car converted to NG brand new will run 10x or longer than straight gasoline. NG doesn't leave the carbon buildups, or have a soup of different chemicals in it like gasoline or diesel does.

I just found this guide @ http:/www.nooutage.com/fuels.htm

djradz · Dec 9, 2004

I think it's fairly safe to say that as long as there is good air flow around the tractor, this is probably some of the easiest service the engine will ever see. Deere and Kubota engines are used frequently on generators around the world. Ran mine for two days straight, except shut it off at night, in May of this year with no problems. Probably the easiest 32 hours the tractor is ever gonna see. Felt so independent, almost wished the outage lasted longer. (oops, for some of you Detroit Edison customers, it did). /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rip · Dec 9, 2004

Regarding you well pump application, Northern (among others) has several "Tri-Fuel" portable generators that can operate on Propane or Natural gas as well as Gasoline. They can be switched back and forth at will. (Dual-Fuel models are Propane or Natural gas only)

You can run them on the 100 lb bottles (the biggest "portable" size) which you take to get filled rather than a delivery truck coming out to you. You can even set it up to use two tanks and automatically switch from the empty to the full tank as travel trailers do.

Congratulations on new Son!!

Westonium · Dec 9, 2004

Yeah - I've been thinking about the propane route. There are kits out there that will let me convert a gas engine to propane. I do like the thought of not worrying about fuel storage.

At some point I am putting in some alternative energy systems, so I am kinda wondering about whether or not I could just start with the well pump. I have a fair amount of elevation change, so I am considering maybe putting in a sistern at the top of the hill, letting it be a giant pressure tank of sorts.

Do they make mechanical failover pumps? It seems a bit of a waste to have an extra generator down there at the moment. The pump doesn't run that often really, so maybe I could just put in a battery bank and a inverter.

In the meantime, I've ordered a Winco PTO generator. I'll get the transfer switch from Home Depot tomorrow probably.

fractal · Dec 9, 2004

( How in hades are you only using 2-3 gallons a year in your tractor? I use more than that a week! )

I bought the tractor to grade two places on my property after calling eight people for quotes, having three people show up and zero provide a quote. All I wanted to do was have water NOT puddle where we wanted to put the kids play set and NOT puddle that one spot near the house. I have since graded both of those places. It only took a dozen yards of fill dirt and a half dozen part days. Of course I coulda done it with a wheel barrow and a shovel, but where's the fun in that.

Now, I only use the tractor to till the garden in the spring and to carry the cord of firewood the wife burns each winter from where it is stacked to near the house in small loads to reduce the termite infestion.

So, how do I use 2-3 gallons a year? Simple. I don't need the tractor. I just like keeping it around. I really should sell it for exactly what I paid for it, but ... I like my toys.

Oh, and as has been eluded to ... most if not all of your box store gasoline powered generators can be converted to LPG or Natural Gas. Many have tri-fuel kits available. I found that a portable generator was ideal for my use and limited life expectancy of those motors was not an issue. I am not sure I would want to use one of those cheap air cooled engines with automatic start running a well.

v8dave · Dec 9, 2004

( .
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I will also buy a small generator that is sized to fit the pump at the pumphouse, and build a little generator house for it.
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Watch the sizing on the generator for the pump. A well pump propably offers the largest starting motor load you'll be running.

If you can't find or figure out the starting load the pump represents. Try renting a generator, of the model you'll buy, and see how it handles the start-up load. If you plan on staying in the same company product line, say Honda, you might be safe with a similar type generator. Be skeptical about the $1,000 5KW units at Home Depot. Rental companies use Honda gensets for good reason--they are durable.

Soundguy gave some experiences he had starting well pumps in one of his early posts in this thread. A 6.5 kw generator is out of the small ctegory.

Unless you have a separate electric feed from the power company to the well site, the fact the well is away from the house doesn't matter. If it is fed from the house power, the wires are already there.

v8dave · Dec 9, 2004

( I just ran some numbers and I think that these are generally true:

* Gasoline generators tend to be 15% quieter (based on dB at 23ft and full load on 5KW gens, 1 Honda, 1 Yanmar)
. . .)

Maybe the noise difference is greater than 15%. Might be 10 times greater. Sound is measured in dB (deciBels). This is on a lograrithmic scale, where each 10 dB is 10 times as loud and 3 dB is twice as loud. A 68 dB generator will be twice as loud as a 65 dB generator and a 75 dB generator is 10 times a loud as a 65 dB generator.

In another life I did some work on a NASA project and learned some otherwise usless information. One tidbit is that a 3dB difference isn't as bad as it seems. Twice the amount of sound is the threshold of a human's ability to determine a difference in sound levels if a moderate amount of time elapses between the two samples. For instance, if you hear a generator at one store and then drive to another store and listen to another generator, you may or may not not detect a 3 dB difference between the units. Yes, in back-to-back tests you could tell the difference. The point is, you probably don't need to make a 3dB sound difference a killer of an otherwise nice generator.

( I just found this guide @ http:/www.nooutage.com/fuels.htm )

I have purchased equipment from nooutage.com and found them to be very good to deal with.

Soundguy · Dec 10, 2004

( My main point was that the price of a dedicated unit is getting much closer to the price of a PTO unit )

I havn't seen anything close. Closest I've seen is some chineese stuff that is still more than 1.5 times the cost of the pto genset. If you look at a name brand, evenmail order.. you are almost 2x...

Soundguy

LBrown59 · Dec 10, 2004

( Propane powered generators require a sizeable tank in order for enough propane to vaporize in cold weather to run them. Just slight disadvantage on propane. However if you have a tank full of propane handy it is not as likely to go offline as natural gas in an earthquake situation, where lines in the gound break. Just some ramblings on the subject.

Ben

)

===================
Here in my little corner of the First organized permanent settlement in the Northwest territory we haven't had an earthquake in my lifetime so that wouldn't be a problem with a Nat. Gas Gen.
I've been at my current location for 38 years and don't recall the gas being off more than once or twice during all that time.
In my case NG would be the most reliable fuel for a GEN.
One problem with Propane, gasoline or other fuels that have to be delivered by a vehicle is impassable roads due to wind snow ice floods EARTHQUAKE etc.

Rip · Dec 10, 2004

Just a couple more comments.... while most gasoline engines can be converted to Propane or natural gas, the tri-fuel models let you switch back and forth (even while running is some modes) so you can take optimum advantage of what ever fuel is best at the moment.

There is a controller that will start a generator when the pump wants to kick on and shut it down at the end of the pump cycle. Some of the folks on the Rural Living forum on this site may know more about it or check out www.homepower.com a very good alternative energy resource.

There are also several medium and deep manual hand well pumps that off-grid and remote cabins use, some can even be installed in conjuction with a regular submersible pump just for emergency back-up.

There are also several submersible AC and DC well pumps specifically designed to minimize the typical start-up surge of regular pump motors and for operation from solar/battery/inverter systems and small generators. These are designed for alternative energy sites and do cost more than standard units.

All sorts of possibilities!

Westonium · Dec 13, 2004

( Maybe the noise difference is greater than 15%. Might be 10 times greater. Sound is measured in dB (deciBels). This is on a lograrithmic scale, where each 10 dB is 10 times as loud and 3 dB is twice as loud.)

I knew that. Um no really. Just don't go check the numbers because I am sure the web pages I got the dB levels from magically changed which would make it SEEM like I temporarily forgot about the log scale. CONSPIRACY!

I ordered the Winco PTO generator and trailer kit from Generator Joes. I am holding off on the generator for the barn for the moment. The pressure tank is currently in the house. It seems like maybe a better long term solution is to put in a tank way at the top of the hill which is about 75-100 ft of elevation higher than the house, and increase the size of the pressure tank that is inside the house. If I put a pressure tank in the pump house, it doesn't seem like that would really help since the pump house is so far down-hill.

In a case of sweet irony, it turns out that the reason the power went out was that a maple that sits on a far corner of the propertly fell across the road and wires.

I will put up pics when the genny arrives.

v8dave · Dec 13, 2004

Westonium, please post your experience with generator joe. I've seen that site and wondered how their service was. I used nooutage for a transfer switch and was quite happy with their service. I've yet to get a generator.

jfdlaw · Dec 14, 2004

SoundGuy - I think you went northern generator - did you select that brand for price, quality, features - combination of all three? I read someone's claim that Winco is the most advance PTO generator, but I haven't seen anything to back it up.

We don't have frequent outages here, but when the power is out it is usually out for days and it is usually cold. (Ice storms are the usual culprit) So I don't need it often, but when I need it, I need it.

I'm looking to power mostly residential uses. Most of the PTO generators seem to list their agriculture attributes. I hate to buy and maintain another engine, and I think I could get enough capacity using my Tractor to furnish my needs. The whole "then you can't use the tractor 'cause its running the generator" issue really isn't one for me as there are seldom projects to do when the ground is covered in snow or ice.

I guess my reluctance is that I would like to be sure the power coming off a PTO generator is as "clean" as a self contained unit. I would be using it (through an already installed transfer switch) to power the whole house. (I understand we wouldn't have the capacity to run everything we run everyday.)

Sorry I rambled. Any thoughts?