PTO Generator Question

[CobyRupert]

Of course. Do you think I'm stupid?

I said it didn't display what you were describing, but I found it interesting that we apparently have a base load when no one is home equal to half our normal daily usage. That says we have some decent sized loads that run automatically all day. So if I were sizing a generator I'd want to identify those loads and consider the possibility they would all want to run at once. Maybe even start at the same time.

Yikes! No, I certainly don't think you're stupid, even despite the fact you're from Boone N.C.! Hee hee. :stirthepot:
My comment was more for others who may read this.
I don't think I was off base, as I've even worked with a few engineers who thought they could extrapolate power requirements from energy usage. Perhaps, but only if you have a lot of other information.

That base load does seem high for not being there.
Once fridge and freezers are at temp, you wouldn't think they'd cycle much. Same for well and pressure.
I'd start checking things:
- Fridge/freezer door seals,
- hot water tank settings and insulation.
- dripping faucet, toilet or leak (does pump cycle in middle of night?)
- house sitter throwing wild dinner parties with a lot cooking, guests end up rolling around on your kitchen table, then they have to take showers and wash and dry their clothes???

 

[TerryR]

That base load does seem high for not being there.
Once fridge and freezers are at temp, you wouldn't think they'd cycle much. Same for well and pressure.
I'd start checking things:
- Fridge/freezer door seals,

That's a thought. I have a device to check power drawn by an appliance that's plugged in to it. But it measures only instantaneous load. Is there a reasonable tool to check load over time for an appliance?

- hot water tank settings and insulation.

Hot water is gas fired. Even if it were losing energy there would only be a tiny load from the burner fan and electronics.

- dripping faucet, toilet or leak (does pump cycle in middle of night?)

Actually there are two pumps. One is deep in the well so there's no easy way to judge when it runs. The other re-pressurizes the water after the aerator removes the CO2 (to de-acidify the water) and that one we can hear, especially at night when all is quiet. I think we'd know if it was running often.

- house sitter throwing wild dinner parties with a lot cooking, guests end up rolling around on your kitchen table, then they have to take showers and wash and dry their clothes???

Seems very out of character.

 

[Industrial Toys]

It IS somewhat difficult to manage loads. For starters, most people just don't know this stuff and I am not blaming them. I have all manner of generating capacity and often my lady friend does not even know that we are running on a generator. I put overload relays as used on motors on my generators that can be adjusted to suit the capacity of the generator. Then, if someone does make a mistake, the circuit simply trips out. No harm done! The BREAKERS on a generating set are NOT the same thing and you can apply loads that will fry your generator without tripping those breakers!

 

[John_Mc]

The BREAKERS on a generating set are NOT the same thing and you can apply loads that will fry your generator without tripping those breakers!

Yeah, I don't use those breakers at all. I was talking about the breakers in my main electrical panel. Since my generator is wired to back-feed the panel, I can turn on or off whatever circuits are needed.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

In my house, the conversation would be, "Sorry family. We're going to disconnect the power for an hour so I can [go plow the driveway / go pull the neighbor out]".

Here too, except it has never happen...

In fact, MY wife would say, hey why don't you unhook the tractor and go help the neighbors out!

SR

 

[crazyal]

Ask Walmart what they think about tesla solar systems....i see 7 of their stores have caught fire from them. Walmart sues Tesla over solar panel fires at seven stores

That would be solar panels that were wired up with faulty wire. What I'm talking about is batteries to store the charge so the generator wouldn't need to run when there was little load on the system. For example at night when people are sleeping or during the day when they are not at home.

 

[koshari]

Maybe it would help, if someone could actually tell, what "sensitive" electronic equipment someone might have that could care if the frequency was 55 or 65 HZ. I'm dying to know. I'm sure some UPSs may not accept an out of range frequency, but beyond that, I can't think of anything.

Generally any piece of electronic gear that needs such an accurate time base, has it's own internal oscillator.

Many newer power supplies (for global markets) practically accept DC to light for frequency.

its not just the load, the transmission line ( or cable to your load ) has impedance values, these differ depending on the frequency and conversely then will effect load as the cable is in series with the load, problems occur when frequency shags around and can cause load fluctuations. this is the main reason electricity grids are designed with tight frequency tolerance.

 

[John_Mc]

In my house, the conversation would be, "Sorry family. We're going to disconnect the power for an hour so I can [go plow the driveway / go pull the neighbor out]". We don't have a PTO generator. We run our house off a portable generator during power outages. My family already knows to expect that if a neighbor needs the generator for a bit to save the food in their freezer, fire up their heating systems for a bit, etc., then we'll be shutting down for a bit to help them out. We can easily go a few hours without in order to help someone with a real need in an extended outage.

Here too, except it has never happen...

In fact, MY wife would say, hey why don't you unhook the tractor and go help the neighbors out!

SR

It's happened on several occasions here. Our little rural town of about 2000 people experienced a 5 day power outage during an early December snow storm a couple of years ago. A good bit of Vermont was effected. We were one of the lucky ones. Our power was back on after 2.5 days. I spent a fair amount of those 5 days helping to clear trees out of people's driveways and some of the secondary roads. A group of us was also spending time shuffling generators around to various households: Any one who had one to lend just checked in with us, and those in need passed the word. There was also quite a number of portable heaters and "gatorade" coolers full of water running around town (those who were not wired for a generator were often not able to run their well pumps, so the coolers were used for drinking water and for flushing toilets).

It was a tough time, but it was great to see the community come together to help each other out.

 

[check]

A hot tub at temperature would be a major energy waste if not insulated to keep it from frreezing in a few days of outage. But it is an interesting question I have tackled with, wondering if there is enough heat migrating to the pump and pack in freezing conditions as the water cools off. It might be worth of putting a temperature alarm on the pump, rather than loose sleep wondering.

If it is an Arctic Spa it will stay warm a ling time, because the spa cavity is insulated, not the hot tub. So, you really do benefit from the heat given off by the pumps.

 

[check]

It IS somewhat difficult to manage loads. For starters, most people just don't know this stuff and I am not blaming them. I have all manner of generating capacity and often my lady friend does not even know that we are running on a generator. I put overload relays as used on motors on my generators that can be adjusted to suit the capacity of the generator. Then, if someone does make a mistake, the circuit simply trips out. No harm done! The BREAKERS on a generating set are NOT the same thing and you can apply loads that will fry your generator without tripping those breakers!

Wait - how can that happen? I thought generator breakers were there in order to keep the generator from frying.

 

[CobyRupert]

its not just the load, the transmission line ( or cable to your load ) has impedance values, these differ depending on the frequency and conversely then will effect load as the cable is in series with the load, problems occur when frequency shags around and can cause load fluctuations. this is the main reason electricity grids are designed with tight frequency tolerance.

What is a load fluctuation? It will turn loads on and off?

Seems like you're saying that if a household generator is running at (say: +5%: 57hz or 63hz), the change in wiring impedance will lead to problems?

No way. Not one inkling.

Plugging a load into a 50 ft 12AWG extension cord would likely have 50 times more effect on the voltage (drop) than a frequency drift. .

...now if your talking about high voltage distribution lines that run 100's or 1000's of miles, a frequency shift may noticeably change the impedance, but you'd have a lot of other problems to worry about.

 

[CobyRupert]

It IS somewhat difficult to manage loads. For starters, most people just don't know this stuff and I am not blaming them. I have all manner of generating capacity and often my lady friend does not even know that we are running on a generator. I put overload relays as used on motors on my generators that can be adjusted to suit the capacity of the generator. Then, if someone does make a mistake, the circuit simply trips out. No harm done! The BREAKERS on a generating set are NOT the same thing and you can apply loads that will fry your generator without tripping those breakers!

Wait - how can that happen? I thought generator breakers were there in order to keep the generator from frying.

They are. I'm curious too.
Unless harmonics are frying the gen..., or
Unless your breaker is a MCP, or somehow only provides (magnetic) short circuit protection and not (thermal) overload protection.
BTW, those motor overloads won't protect the circuit from a short, just an overload.

 

[buickanddeere]

I work at lots of Menonite shops. Lasers, robots, overhead cranes and somewhere a Diesel Generator spewing out carbon. Like the Indians in remote areas. Kind of piises me off.

How does the diesel gen set compare in pollution vs that of the earth痴 natural release of methane or the catalog of toxic compounds related from volcanoes, earth quakes and floods .

 

[CobyRupert]

How does the diesel gen set compare in pollution vs that of the earthç—´ natural release of methane or the catalog of toxic compounds related from volcanoes, earth quakes and floods .

Not sure about methane specifically, but regarding other greenhouse gases:
Are Volcanoes or Humans Harder on the Atmosphere? - Scientific American

"According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. "

That's .2/24, or less than 1% (0.8%) emitted by volcanoes compared to humans.
In other words: "Diddly or squat: diddly squat"

 

[WranglerX]

How does the diesel gen set compare in pollution vs that of the earthç—´ natural release of methane or the catalog of toxic compounds related from volcanoes, earth quakes and floods .

How about keeping it within reason we can control like Propane vs Diesel....

Dale

 

[Industrial Toys]

I mentiond it before elsewhere. Firstly the breakers must deal with start up loads which most generators cannot handle on a continuous basis. Secondly, breakers are only made in certain sizes and for obvious reasons, the next larger size is chosen. That can permit the ability to run continuous loads on a generator that it will not survive. People who don't have a clue, just keep adding stuff and think as long as it still works, they're good.

Now, let's discuss POWER FACTOR.

 

[jaydee325]

Now, let's discuss POWER FACTOR.

Capacitive load, inductive load, resistive load, VARs...

No, we do not have to go there for portable or PTO generators.:confused2:

 

[Industrial Toys]

Comon, lets. I don't even profess to understand PF!:confused2: I know there are capacitive and resistive loads but I don't fully understand how KW and KVA are related or matter.

 

[RickB]

How about keeping it within reason

Dale

Hahahahahaha.

 

[koshari]

What is a load fluctuation? It will turn loads on and off?

Seems like you're saying that if a household generator is running at (say: +5%: 57hz or 63hz), the change in wiring impedance will lead to problems?

Prolly could have been clearer, the fluctuation in load would be seen from the generator however the load as the end of the transmission line coule be unchanged. Your assumption that i are refering to transmission lines in a distribution system are correct.

When i did my hv electrical protection diplima one of the practical examples that was set up on the labvolt simulator was a scenario where a single generator was coupled to load via 2 transmission lines in parallel. Once the load and was stable and at rull load the instructor switched out one of the transmission lines.

The result of this was that the capacitive reaction of the trans lines were effectively halved instantanoisely. This meant that all of a sudden the generator saw a different load even though the actual load didnt change and the generator began to chase the perceived new load. This resulted in cycling of the speed of the generator as both the governer and the avr were both trying to get the system back tp equilibrium.

So to qualify my comment was more just explaining that sudden changes in the transline impedence can cause issues rather than choosing a different length cable to begin with.